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Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

outhouse

Atheistically
I expect Muhammad really did resemble them more closely than the more ancient prophets like Jesus or Moses. But I am also sure that the legends were manipulated to suit his followers desire for a superhuman. They wanted a demi-god, so they made Muhammad into one.
Tom

Agreed.

Its the prophet part and talking to angles is where anthropology embarrasses modern belief of the faithful.

These people had no idea what a conscious mind even was. When someone had good and holy intentions even if it was a warlord, and angel had to be talking to him. When in reality it was just human consciousness.

One could only be really good if by divine intervention, when one held any sort of authority or power.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
All of this is what scholars follow.

I think the era Muhammad lived in was recent enough for us to accept him as a historical figure

Yep, all probability is that he did exist, and from sources closer the Jesus had giving him more historicity then Jesus.

What I do question is the legitimacy of his religion or any religion for that matter

Agreed, we see major plagiarizations of previous traditions, purposely changed to meet this different cultures need, wants wishes and desires.

Islam is like any religion out there, which is simply made up by humans and is no different than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.

100% accurate from my view.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
I think it's still important to DNA test him to identify the lineage. Muslims claim he comes from the lineage of Abraham which is shared ancestry with Jews. Now if you ask me I'll tell you that there's no evidence of Abraham, Moses, Adam, etc, so talking about them is as good as talking about Santa Claus and Leprechauns. But for the sake of argument let's assume that he shares a lineage with most Gulf Arabs today and Jews who claim to be Cohen Jews, that would mean he would have to carry a Y-DNA mutation of J-M267. I'm actually interested in this because modern Quraish and Banu Hashim Arabs have shown to have diverse Y-DNA which indicates multiple paternal lineages even though the majority do carry J-M267 (The same goes for Cohen Jews). To top it off, a number of modern Arabs who claimed to be from "Ahl Al-Bait" actually turned out to be carrying Y-DNA R-L657, which is most commonly found in South Asia.

Yes, man has outward deities for all of the symbols of their inner body parts. Even the Claustrum(Santa Claus) of the brain that brings gifts (wisdom and knowledge) via fluid and electric energy.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Who really knows the full truth, it was so long ago it could be anything, but the sad fact is that there are many people who believe what they believe, just because of culture.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Obviously not all were against him. He had a following of warriors. By inventing a religion with him at the center he could consolidate and increase his already powerful position.
So he drew upon the many stories he learned as a young man. He travelled widely in a region with lots of Jews and Christians and picked up many garbled versions of their beliefs. He created a new religion out of those, plus some local beliefs and some pagan notions.
Including the notion that Jesus escaped the crucifixion.
Tom

He also made alliances with polytheists, Christians and Jews that hated the tribes of Mecca. This is from Islamic history itself.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
He also made alliances with polytheists, Christians and Jews that hated the tribes of Mecca. This is from Islamic history itself.

Were the polytheists,Christians and Jews morons that he moves them the way he wishes ?
Mohammed wasn't a king or a leader but just a simple man, then how you explain a simple man changing the history of the Arabian Peninsula, was he just a smart guy and the rest were morons including the Persians which became a Muslim nation.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
No. That's why He accomplished almost nothing.

He was some kind of anti Roman rabble rouser. I think He was a recruiter for the really violent people, but nobody knows. He was executed by the Romans for sedition. He left nothing but a scattered handful of apocalyptic cults. Judea had many of those. Most of them vanished when Rome destroyed Judea. The cult of Jesus probably would have to.

This is not in complete accordance with the scholarly consensus, with the exception of your recognition that Jesus was "apocalyptic" (in the Second Temple Jewish sense).

Most scholars are in agreement with Bart Ehrman that Jesus was an apocalyptic "prophet". They do not believe he was violent or a recruiter of violent people, however. The Q Sayings Source, which Matthew and Luke relied upon in writing their gospel accounts, taught explicitly that the eschatological Kingdom which the heavenly 'Son of Man' would inaugurate on earth (not necessarily Jesus himself in the earliest traditions, we can't really say for sure) could not be brought about violently.

As Ehrman notes, Jesus (in his opinion) taught his followers that the divine judgement was imminent and would happen irrespective of human action. Therefore there was no point in engaging in violence or revolting against the Romans. God was going to take care of that anyway when the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven. So Ehrman and most scholars adhering to the mainstream apocalyptic interpretation contend that Jesus taught non-violence: people were going to be "judged" by God in the imminent apocalypse, so the mission of the disciples was to "redeem" as many people as possible and leave the rest to God's wrath. Hence why we find Jesus commanding his disciples to scuff their feet and refuse to bless any village that doesn't accept them. No violence is permitted, just the recognition that they had effectively doomed themselves in light of the coming eschaton.

There is absolutely no evidence to back up the claim that Jesus was violent or preached violence. In fact the earliest evidence from Q emphatically dictates against such an assessment and it seems plausible that Judas might have been a "Zealot", betraying Jesus because he was furious that the latter was not willing to engage in violent insurrection against the Romans but was rather waiting for this coming divine judgement, that at least materially speaking obviously didn't materialize, with Jesus instead being executed and a new theology (justifying this) being created on the basis of him as a "Suffering Messiah" (which apparently no Jews of that period had been anticipating) who sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity.

He was an apocalyptic prophet (according to most scholars although not those who participated in the Jesus Seminar, who regard him as having been a cynical sage), not a national insurrectionist.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Were the polytheists,Christians and Jews morons that he moves them the way he wishes ?

In the military alliance different forces worked together and separately depending on the objective. During the Battle of Mecca a force comprised of many groups marched on Mecca.


Mohammed wasn't a king or a leader but just a simple man, then how you explain a simple man changing the history of the Arabian Peninsula, was he just a smart guy and the rest were morons including the Persians which became a Muslim nation.

He was a prophet of a religion thus the leader of the religion. He was a leader regardless of what you believe. It would be like saying Moses was not a leader, the Pope is not a leader, etc. He was a political and religious leader, he had actual generals lead his battles. So if you want to give credit give it where it is due and in the proper context.

Byzantium and Perisa were crippled from centuries of warfare, this is known history. Border tribes, including in Arabia had always been a problem for these empires and empires which preceded each. Also one of the greatest generals of all time was a Muslim, Khalid ibn al-walid, Muhammad never conquered either empire, his successors did. He didn't conquer Arabia, his generals did. The only way you can claim he did anything is by admitting he was the leader of these people. So you have two choices. He was a leader thus you can link his leadership with the acts of his followers. He was not a leader thus the accomplishment of his followers are their own. Pick one.

Persia was conquered. It did not convert without military occupation which setup an Islamic government. You should look up the revolts in Persia due to the heavy-handedness of Islamic rulers. Conversion of a population is a fallacious point and of no merit.
 
The facts were written and recorded, Mohammed did a great job.
What he did is what makes me having such faith.

If facts were written you would not need to have faith in them because they would be facts. Here's the definition of faith:

"Complete trust or confidence in someone or something."

Which means that you trust the source based on your faith, but you really have no fact whether the source is legit or not, you're simply going by faith alone. Imagine I make the following statement:

"I have faith that Germany won the world cup of soccer in 2014"

There's no need to have faith in such statement because it's a historical fact. What you have however is not a fact, if it was you would not need faith to go along with it.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
If facts were written you would not need to have faith in them because they would be facts. Here's the definition of faith:

"Complete trust or confidence in someone or something."

Which means that you trust the source based on your faith, but you really have no fact whether the source is legit or not, you're simply going by faith alone. Imagine I make the following statement:

"I have faith that Germany won the world cup of soccer in 2014"

There's no need to have faith in such statement because it's a historical fact. What you have however is not a fact, if it was you would not need faith to go along with it.

Yes i understand and agree with you, but that is a blind faith.

For example i don't believe that a man can be God in flesh as some Christians believe and they have faith in Jesus
as being God and son of God, for me it doesn't make any sense but if in a case that i have such kind of faith then it is a blind one.
 
Yes i understand and agree with you, but that is a blind faith.

For example i don't believe that a man can be God in flesh as some Christians believe and they have faith in Jesus
as being God and son of God, for me it doesn't make any sense but if in a case that i have such kind of faith then it is a blind one.

All faith is blind because at the end of the day you're going by your gut feelings, that's why it's called faith. Basically faith means it's not a fact, you believe it because it requires faith to work, there's no evidence for it.

As for suggesting that God being a man means blind faith because it's not logical to you, I suppose believing in flying angels, splitting the moon in half, and traveling from Mecca to Jerusalem then to heaven all in a single night makes more sense to believe in? You see that's the problem with religion, it's not logical, therefore the word logic should not be used here to describe one's faith.
 
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