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Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

outhouse

Atheistically
Can you explain what you think my position is,

For one, you are arguing against plagiarism. Despite it is not even debated academically.

Second you are trying to show a way around the word plagiarized by showing small areas of study on how biblical traditions were used.

You also claim the warrior may not have claimed divine inspiration.

This is from the Sira (not the Quran), something you admit is not accurate.

I REQUIRE HONESTY please source where I stated all of the Sira is not accurate.

Refusing Christian apologetic rhetorical traditions, does not mean I have to believe the earth is 6000 years old. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Yes or No only

#1 Did some of the ideas and traditions used in the Koran originally belong to the bible?

#2 Did the warrior claim these traditions were revealed to him and not learned?



Plagiarized is not up for debate.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You can post whatever you wish to reason amongst yourself, I have never reasoned against any of that. The entire time has been "similarities." Nothing more, nothing less. Hebrew has Sanskrit etymology and influence all over it, please don't ignore the initial and only reasoning. Of course they have different meanings to the particular tradition, if you would like to reason about text "interpretation," and their "meanings," just say so. After initial influence, different traditions kept evolving, as well as words through their own created traditional paths and different "meanings." I don't disagree. The differences amongst religions are striking when viewed fundamentally, literally, and historically after their initial source of influence. Something outward religion has been great at, differences and divide. Don't add and apply it to "similarities." It's been your work, not mine. It's that selection bias referred to. I have not ignored the differences, because the only thing I was concerned with were similarities. No selection was even required. When you made it about selection yourself, the only ignoring became of similarities. Do you lack awareness to see or understand what you do?

False Hebrew does not have Sankrit etymology at all. Look up the names of the two wives, these are completely different. We are talking about language not a religious interpretation, language. It seems you know nothing about linguistics thus in your ignorance believe that you found something relevant but ignore the very tools to draw such a conclusion. You articles is simply "Hey look these look similar in English" that's it.

Yes you are only concerned with selection bias thus a concern for fallacious reasoning, nothing more. There is a reason none of your ideas, or the articles, are taken seriously. There are claims of amature that have no education in any topic they discuss.

Really, the symbolism all means the same things, just semantics and people wanting to disagree and make everything a tradition and about them. The texts are all connected. Our languages are all connected. Same concepts as evolution. Just make a phylogenetic "religion/tradition" tree, as well as a phylogenetic "etymology" tree.

This is hilarious coming from a person that is making a claim "Hey look Judaism borrowed from Hinduism based on English translations and transliteration. Phylogenetic trees are relevant when you can establish a true link within the language, not English. You have not made a single link within the languages themselves, only in English since the two names are similar in spelling. You are making the same amateur mistake Godfrey Higgins did, which is the source of article, which is talking about a subject that they have no education in.

Whatever is it you are trained in, perhaps it'd be beneficial to expand your conscious into Sanskrit and Vedic influence. Best part yet, you can keep all of the knowledge you already possess.

I will pass since I am trained in Biblical Archaeology, you know the very ground work, area, people one of the text you are using is based upon.

"since you've never studied the bible," thank you for the compliment, Studying myths and symbolic poetry as historical is not very wise. They aren't history books or texts as evidence has suggested.

I never said to study it as history but to study the text themselves, the purpose for specific verses, names, links, lessons, messages, etc. If you did you wouldn't make a mistake in assuming 14 generation is accurate or historical. What the purpose of the generation are for and how the very genealogy is flawed and dismissed as a construct to legitimatize a figure with a construct (Abraham)
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
There are claims of amature that have no education in any topic they discuss.

His only methodology is that a cherry and watermelon are both round so they are the same species. o_O

Its way beyond fallacious and lack of knowledge.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You bring up a great point im not sure our friend is educated in. When I learned of rhetorical prose it was the largest increase in my knowledge I have seen. All kinds of lights went on that I had never known before after learning Aristotle's influence on Pauls rhetorical prose.

There is also Plato's influence on a number of Christian writers.

The warriors and scribes, and all biblical authors were ALL trained to wrote in rhetorical prose.

Even outside of the Bible this method was common. Homer for example. Even the claims of authorship of the supposed texts of his work were not made by him but from oral traditions much like the Bible.

The sole purpose of writing was to persuade the intended audience. They wrote every words as persuasion methods.

They built authority and divinity and used previous mythological characters thought to be real, to parallel their greatness to these prophets apostles and warriors.

Which is common in antiquity. Heck people borrowed the Alexander Legends since he was one of the greatest figures of the era. Being associated with him provides a lot of credibility

We see the NT authors doing this with moses as islam did, and no one bats an eye when you claim christianity plagiarized Judaism.

Within Islam there are two different identities for Moses. One that follows the standard biblical tradition and one that follow along with Islamic PoV. By doing this Mo becomes closer in identify with Moses thus gains a huge amount of authority especially in the context of bring the flock back to the fold. The same is true of Ishmael and Issac. The positions are switched since Mo is not a Hebrew thus has no claims to prophethood by blood. However by switching the roles around Mo gains authority. The sad thing is by doing so it also undermines Judaism in a way that it makes all links from Islam to Judaism untenable due to the covenant and promise.


This was the factual CONTEX all abrahamic traditions were recorded in. If a man had good religious thoughts in his conscious mind, these primitive people claimed god spoke to him, because they didn't know any better, and its how everyone else thought in that time period.

Not always. Usually those that couldn't argue their points well did so. Many philosophers that discussed religion and God needed no claims of divine authority as their arguments were convincing.

Context is key here.

True. However, take no offense by this, I am trying to argue specific points while your views come across as far more generalized.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Still not quite sure what perspective you are arguing from.

A very specific verse based context.

Do you believe someone looking at it from a secular historical perspective should view it as plagiarism? Or only from within the Islamic traditional paradigm?

With specific verses, yes. The whole text, no.

The tradition can be used as a reference source, but the Sira turns into hagiography and what appears to be traditions and interpretations that have been added at a later point. As such, what Muhammed himself claimed is unknown. It is not definitively attested to in the Quran.

Very true. Hence why I focus on traditions claims. There is a possibility that these are later injections during the imperial phase of Islam as a state religion in order for those in power to claim authority above that of the right of conquest.

What the tradition has later added is often dubious, and how the material that became the Quran was utilised and viewed in reality is certainly contentious.

Agreed.

We both agree the tradition is often dubious.

We both acknowledge similarities and are aware of the extent of these similarities in recourse to specific examples.

We both agree the religion is a product of late antiquity.

Agreed

We disagree in that you believe this must reflect plagiarism, whereas I think that we lack the understanding of what Muhammed himself claimed as to the source of his knowledge of the Biblical, para-Biblical and mythological material.

I don't see how recourse to tradition solves this question from an academic POV.

It's not focusing strict upon Islamic tradition but external sources in contrast to the Islamic sources.

If we go to an Islamic POV, I also don't see how it can 'prove' plagiarism either. You can criticise the Islamic tradition, but the believer always has the God card to play to refute plagiarism.

You confuse using the sources as accepting every claim of the sources as a believer would. I am merely accepting that these are sources from a tradition. You are confusing the strict religious interpretation with using the sources.

Only the Islamic tradition minus God seems to support the idea, but this is neither the believer or unbeliever's POV, but a hybrid of the two. Both the believer and the unbeliever can legitimately reject 'proven' plagiarism from within their own paradigm.

Keep in mind academia is attempting to establish the ground work, sources and environment of the text in order to create a new view that is not based on religious beliefs.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
His only methodology is that a cherry and watermelon are both round so they are the same species. o_O

Its way beyond fallacious and lack of knowledge.

No, it is just rehashing and repeating of Godfrey Higgin's claims. His views are not even a fringe view but one dismissed centuries ago. I am not sure if you heard of him as I do not expect ideas discredited centuries ago would even be mentioned in modern education of the NT and OT. Check out his work and you will see exactly what I am talking about. It is also good for a laugh. His book regarding Hinduism and Judaism is called Anacalypsis. Beyond the topic at hand read his views regarding race/skin colour. It is the typical Eurocentric white superiority complex of his era
 

outhouse

Atheistically
True. However, take no offense by this, I am trying to argue specific points while your views come across as far more generalized.

Understood.

My main point was that I had to study at a university to learn biblical rhetorical prose on a basic beginner level. And that in itself is a huge eye opener that should be a requirement before debating any religious topic.


Your aware of this, but there are only a handful at best here that understand any part of it.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
False Hebrew does not have Sankrit etymology at all. Look up the names of the two wives, these are completely different. We are talking about language not a religious interpretation, language. It seems you know nothing about linguistics thus in your ignorance believe that you found something relevant but ignore the very tools to draw such a conclusion. You articles is simply "Hey look these look similar in English" that's it.

Yes you are only concerned with selection bias thus a concern for fallacious reasoning, nothing more. There is a reason none of your ideas, or the articles, are taken seriously. There are claims of amature that have no education in any topic they discuss.



This is hilarious coming from a person that is making a claim "Hey look Judaism borrowed from Hinduism based on English translations and transliteration. Phylogenetic trees are relevant when you can establish a true link within the language, not English. You have not made a single link within the languages themselves, only in English since the two names are similar in spelling. You are making the same amateur mistake Godfrey Higgins did, which is the source of article, which is talking about a subject that they have no education in.



I will pass since I am trained in Biblical Archaeology, you know the very ground work, area, people one of the text you are using is based upon.



I never said to study it as history but to study the text themselves, the purpose for specific verses, names, links, lessons, messages, etc. If you did you wouldn't make a mistake in assuming 14 generation is accurate or historical. What the purpose of the generation are for and how the very genealogy is flawed and dismissed as a construct to legitimatize a figure with a construct (Abraham)


False on your end.

There is language in relation to humans AND language in relation to gods. Language and linguistics as opposed to Sanskrit literature. Human language AND religious language. Sacred/philosophical AND epistemic.

Differences between their own use of language in epistemic contexts and the use of language directed toward "Gods."

It is similar to the plagiarism that's been discussed, there is the divine source AND the human source.

Does translation amongst different languages make it worthless and hold no value?

Regarding epistemic
linguistics....

Hebrew is from both Proto Indo-European and Proto-Semitic.

ENGLISH is from Proto Indo-European.

Hebrew connects with and influenced by some Indo-European languages. They are all connected and have borrowed a little from one another.

Since you're more concerned with archeology, history, religious history, epistemic language and linguistics... Stick to that.
 
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Unification

Well-Known Member
His only methodology is that a cherry and watermelon are both round so they are the same species. o_O

Its way beyond fallacious and lack of knowledge.

If I can count the number of times your very own words and statements have been hypocritical in which you lacked awareness of what you were even doing ... In this thread alone, it may be double the amount of times you've used the phrase "unsubstantiated rhetoric" in your lifetime. Pointing them out to you is a waste of time, you do not have eyes to see or ears to hear.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You don't get to judge anyone for anything. You have no clue what your even debating.

This is not the stay awake for a week a dead head concert, and debate thread.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hebrew connects with and influenced by some Indo-European languages. They are all connected and have borrowed a little from one another.


Not at all. It is Semitic like Arabic, specifically Canaanite like Phoenician or Ugaritic (both extinct and historically spoken in the Palestine, Lebanon region.

Modern Hebrew and even Talmudic has Indo-European (mainly Persian and Greek in Talmudic Hebrew; German, Russian, Latin and English in Modern Hebrew) influenced but Biblical Hebrew does not.
 
Non sequitur to your truthfulness.

Are you trying to set a new record for the most misuses of a phrase in a single thread?

Interesting that you consider that debating a topic is unacceptable and that anyone who disagrees with your facile position is dishonest.

For someone who claims the "only thing" they are interested in is historiography, you do appear to have a very closed mind.

For one, you are arguing against plagiarism. Despite it is not even debated academically.

I doubt you know what is debated academically as you don't appear to have a greater understanding than what you read on Wikiislam, and you dismissed arguably the most important new trend in academic Quranic studies as 'apologetics'. You also appear to find it difficult to differentiate between a pdf copy of a published academic text and a blog

Just about everything as regards Islamic history is debated academically.

The problem is that you are using the ultra-facile reasoning that similarities can only be explained by plagiarism, no need to think about context, sitz im leben, etc. If there is a similarity, it is plagiarism, end of.

You assume there is 'no debate', as you assume everyone uses the same ultra-facile reasoning that you do.

Second you are trying to show a way around the word plagiarized by showing small areas of study on how biblical traditions were used.

Again, because of your ultra-facile perspective, you don't see the historicity of how the Quran emerged and was used in reality, and the historicity of Muhammed and his message as being of any relevance to the discussion.

As such, you dismiss any attempt to explain or identify this as 'apologetics' or 'small', rather than essential in understanding the point we are discussing beyond simply copy/pasting wikiislam and saying "look! similarities!"

You also claim the warrior may not have claimed divine inspiration.

I'm saying we know very little about him. From one contemporaneous non-Islamic source he is simply described as 'King of the Arabs', for example.

I believe he was viewed as a prophet though, however what it requires to be considered a prophet, and what powers he claimed to have as a prophet are open to debate.

Another early source, Doctrina Iacobi, talks about a prophet “who is proclaiming the arrival of the Anointed One who is to come, the Christ.” It is at least possible that his prophethood related to knowledge of the eschaton, rather than receiving the divine word of God from an angel.

What he claimed about the source of the Biblical and para-Biblical material that is included in the Quran is certainly open to debate.

I REQUIRE HONESTY please source where I stated all of the Sira is not accurate.

You believe that not all of the Sira is accurate, yet you assume it is accurate as regards what Muhhamed claimed about the nature of his prophethood when it suits you for rhetorical purposes. I'm not sure if you even realise you are doing it as you keep accusing me of dishonesty for pointing it out.

I'm sceptical of the tradition, so don't accept that it must be factually true if it part of the tradition.
 
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A very specific verse based context... It's not focusing strict upon Islamic tradition but external sources in contrast to the Islamic sources.

Would you consider something like this as supporting the claim of plagiarism?


The second possible way the prophet's recitation (and written Qur’an) could have included a conflation of the two Syriac loan-words puqdana and purqana is to assume that the text was already written down during Muhammad’s lifetime... In this case, Muhammad himself may have been responsible for conflating the two words found in older religious texts on which he drew in compiling the Qur’an, or he may have copied the terms correctly and distinct from one another, but (as in the first scenario above) later copyists then confused them.

https://www.academia.edu/1013511/Quranic_Furqan


And I think you linked to this article earlier:

Sūrat al-Fīl is an evocative text despite its brevity. It would have had considerable power in Late Antiquity, when recited to an Arabic-speaking audience as a poetic reference to the canonical (in Eastern Christianity) Biblical narratives of 2 and 3 Maccabees. Q 105 invokes and repeats the powerful theme of monotheistic devotion that brings salvation via divine punishment of the oppressing polytheists, the same theme which forms the core of 2 and 3 Maccabees, using the same striking motif of royal war elephants as both the symbol and embodiment of hostile pagan power.

With their shared emphasis on martyrdom, perseverance, and divine salvation, the books of 2 and 3 Maccabees present religious views that converge upon what later emerged as Qur’anic theology, and comport with the ecumenical, indeterminate monotheism that scholars have increasingly advanced as constituting the early Qur’anic historical context. As one of the most archaic Qur’anic compositions, Q 105 would have seized upon its audience’s existing knowledge regarding this scriptural tradition of shared Jewish and Christian salvation narratives, which almost any Arabic-speaking monotheist could recognize and heed as a divine message.

https://www.academia.edu/11493284/Maccabees_Not_Mecca_The_Biblical_Subtext_of_Sūrat_al-Fīl_Q_105_

The Quran relates to existing traditions, I think that it is problematic tell the difference between for example, a lectionary that references existing texts that were pervasive in the cultural environment and a plagiarism, which pretends that at least some unoriginal aspects of these texts were original work of Muhammed.

You have works of religious rhetoric that reference Biblical and para Biblical stories and religious mythology to make a theological point. For example "They will question thee concerning Dhool Karnain. Say: 'I will recite to you a mention of him." The story of Dhul, as you know, is based on the Syriac Alexander Legend, is used, in the Quran, to make a point about the end of days as well as a warning against shirk.

What we have is a work of religious rhetoric, which draws on a story that was well known in the cultural environment. To plagiarise this would mean trying to pass this off as an original composition, although given its pervasiveness due to its links to Heraclius' propaganda, is it not more likely that it is a reference to a story that was well known to the audience. This is how an orator would operate.

The claims of sources of knowledge, divine, is what matters... Using a person or God which people see as an authority gives weight to one with no such authority or acknowledgement of the masses... This is likewise for many claims regarding God, which is the highest authority. If the audience believes in said God then a figure speaking as a conduit of God gains authority and credibility they do not have without God.

The question is though, which knowledge, in what way did Muhammed claim to be a conduit of God?

As a hypothetical, let's use the not implausible idea that Muhammed was an eschatological prophet speaking largely to a relatively ecumenical audience of purported monotheists.

The divine knowledge claimed could relate to knowledge of the eschaton, and Muhammed was a warner to people to revert to the true message of God before it was too late. Muhammed then created rhetorical orations used to persuade his audience of the importance of his message.

This is not what is claimed by the tradition, but at least some of the tradition is acknowledged to be of dubious historicity.

From the perspective of academic history, plagiarism would require not simply using existing traditions but false claims about the authorship of such traditions. What was claimed in real life about this is unknown though. It only works if you accept the accuracy of the Sirah/hadith, and in these Muhammed starts gaining magical powers that are likely to be later additions, as Jesus' miracles likely were.

If Muhammed was using stories that his audience knew were not of his composition, I don't see how the charge of plagiarism can fit. If talk of angels and caves is a later addition and hagiographical, which is at least a possibility, then it is not sufficient to demonstrate anything about the real man. If plagiarism is dependant on this aspect of the tradition, it only 'works' if you assume the tradition to be true an accurate reflection of what Muhammed claimed, which is certainly 'unproven'.

Keep in mind academia is attempting to establish the ground work, sources and environment of the text in order to create a new view that is not based on religious beliefs.

Which gets back to my point, which is from the view from academic history plagiarism charges rest on information that is likely ahistorical.

Terms such as intertextuality and hypertextuality are certainly relevant, and, in my opinion, far more useful than 'plagiarism', which requires additional assumption.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
False on your end.

There is language in relation to humans AND language in relation to gods. Language and linguistics as opposed to Sanskrit literature. Human language AND religious language. Sacred/philosophical AND epistemic.

Not in the case you are attempting to make. You are attempting to deconstruct the texts, traditions, peoples and environment to an oversimplification of religion. This is in order to usurper one religion in order to provide credibility for your own view, nothing more. the oversimplication of your argument is the very weakness which makes it untenable.

Differences between their own use of language in epistemic contexts and the use of language directed toward "Gods."

Irrelevant. Religions seek the divine this does not mean each religion is based upon your favour of choice.

It is similar to the plagiarism that's been discussed, there is the divine source AND the human source.

Nope as there are long standing traditions for my view and none for your own.

Does translation amongst different languages make it worthless and hold no value?

Nope. Even a lie believed as a truth has meaning and value to people. As is the case with Paul's letters. The lie is in the authorship, the value and meaning is within the text.

Hebrew is from both Proto Indo-European and Proto-Semitic.

No, it has no relation to Indo-European. You are using speculation as evidence, not actual evidence.

ENGLISH is from Proto Indo-European.

Hebrew isnt which is the language of one the texts you are using is written in.

Hebrew connects with and influenced by some Indo-European languages. They are all connected and have borrowed a little from one another.

Loanwords can be traced properly in order to establish a link, you have made no such case.

Since you're more concerned with archeology, history, religious history, epistemic language and linguistics... Stick to that.

Fine by me since those are all relevant to this thread and your claims.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You're a traditionalist, there is no reasoning with a closed mind and a complicated phenomena not nearly complete.

Nevertheless, Google it. There are many who aren't stuck in a traditional rut and provide wonderful wisdom of the hybrid connections.

Guess that comes with "scholarly pride," what one has taught their entire lives they'll fight until death to hold onto their self-credibility and can't be told or shown anything. There is no profit reasoning with these types of faulty programmed minds.

Take care, bud.

Google is crap, if you use this as a source it shows you are willing to believe anything you read on the internet. Let's see credible studies or research papers from professions. You know what professionals are right? Those people you ignore, in case you forgot.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Would you consider something like this as supporting the claim of plagiarism?


The second possible way the prophet's recitation (and written Qur’an) could have included a conflation of the two Syriac loan-words puqdana and purqana is to assume that the text was already written down during Muhammad’s lifetime... In this case, Muhammad himself may have been responsible for conflating the two words found in older religious texts on which he drew in compiling the Qur’an, or he may have copied the terms correctly and distinct from one another, but (as in the first scenario above) later copyists then confused them.

https://www.academia.edu/1013511/Quranic_Furqan


And I think you linked to this article earlier:

Sūrat al-Fīl is an evocative text despite its brevity. It would have had considerable power in Late Antiquity, when recited to an Arabic-speaking audience as a poetic reference to the canonical (in Eastern Christianity) Biblical narratives of 2 and 3 Maccabees. Q 105 invokes and repeats the powerful theme of monotheistic devotion that brings salvation via divine punishment of the oppressing polytheists, the same theme which forms the core of 2 and 3 Maccabees, using the same striking motif of royal war elephants as both the symbol and embodiment of hostile pagan power.

With their shared emphasis on martyrdom, perseverance, and divine salvation, the books of 2 and 3 Maccabees present religious views that converge upon what later emerged as Qur’anic theology, and comport with the ecumenical, indeterminate monotheism that scholars have increasingly advanced as constituting the early Qur’anic historical context. As one of the most archaic Qur’anic compositions, Q 105 would have seized upon its audience’s existing knowledge regarding this scriptural tradition of shared Jewish and Christian salvation narratives, which almost any Arabic-speaking monotheist could recognize and heed as a divine message.

https://www.academia.edu/11493284/Maccabees_Not_Mecca_The_Biblical_Subtext_of_Sūrat_al-Fīl_Q_105_

The Quran relates to existing traditions, I think that it is problematic tell the difference between for example, a lectionary that references existing texts that were pervasive in the cultural environment and a plagiarism, which pretends that at least some unoriginal aspects of these texts were original work of Muhammed.

You have works of religious rhetoric that reference Biblical and para Biblical stories and religious mythology to make a theological point. For example "They will question thee concerning Dhool Karnain. Say: 'I will recite to you a mention of him." The story of Dhul, as you know, is based on the Syriac Alexander Legend, is used, in the Quran, to make a point about the end of days as well as a warning against shirk.

What we have is a work of religious rhetoric, which draws on a story that was well known in the cultural environment. To plagiarise this would mean trying to pass this off as an original composition, although given its pervasiveness due to its links to Heraclius' propaganda, is it not more likely that it is a reference to a story that was well known to the audience. This is how an orator would operate.



The question is though, which knowledge, in what way did Muhammed claim to be a conduit of God?

As a hypothetical, let's use the not implausible idea that Muhammed was an eschatological prophet speaking largely to a relatively ecumenical audience of purported monotheists.

The divine knowledge claimed could relate to knowledge of the eschaton, and Muhammed was a warner to people to revert to the true message of God before it was too late. Muhammed then created rhetorical orations used to persuade his audience of the importance of his message.

This is not what is claimed by the tradition, but at least some of the tradition is acknowledged to be of dubious historicity.

From the perspective of academic history, plagiarism would require not simply using existing traditions but false claims about the authorship of such traditions. What was claimed in real life about this is unknown though. It only works if you accept the accuracy of the Sirah/hadith, and in these Muhammed starts gaining magical powers that are likely to be later additions, as Jesus' miracles likely were.

If Muhammed was using stories that his audience knew were not of his composition, I don't see how the charge of plagiarism can fit. If talk of angels and caves is a later addition and hagiographical, which is at least a possibility, then it is not sufficient to demonstrate anything about the real man. If plagiarism is dependant on this aspect of the tradition, it only 'works' if you assume the tradition to be true an accurate reflection of what Muhammed claimed, which is certainly 'unproven'.



Which gets back to my point, which is from the view from academic history plagiarism charges rest on information that is likely ahistorical.

Terms such as intertextuality and hypertextuality are certainly relevant, and, in my opinion, far more useful than 'plagiarism', which requires additional assumption.

Let me read your link. I dislike make comments on statements especially at the tail end of a book. Even reading the first few pages I can see Donner is attempting to establish ground work well before this statement is made. I would like to see his process in it's entirety before see his possible conclusions.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Not in the case you are attempting to make. You are attempting to deconstruct the texts, traditions, peoples and environment to an oversimplification of religion. This is in order to usurper one religion in order to provide credibility for your own view, nothing more. the oversimplication of your argument is the very weakness which makes it untenable.



Irrelevant. Religions seek the divine this does not mean each religion is based upon your favour of choice.



Nope as there are long standing traditions for my view and none for your own.



Nope. Even a lie believed as a truth has meaning and value to people. As is the case with Paul's letters. The lie is in the authorship, the value and meaning is within the text.



No, it has no relation to Indo-European. You are using speculation as evidence, not actual evidence.



Hebrew isnt which is the language of one the texts you are using is written in.



Loanwords can be traced properly in order to establish a link, you have made no such case.



Fine by me since those are all relevant to this thread and your claims.

The attempt to slap all sorts of things through twisting of your very own words and fantasy onto someone else has always been the greatest lie ever told, if it makes you right, by attributing lies to me and adding all sorts of stuff to someone, so be it. I forgive you, you don't realize what you do. I'm not concerned with my image, credibility, and what the lower academists think. People have also been doing that to "God" for quite some time.

The authorship, messenger doesn't matter, as well as the language... What matters is the meaning, in which you're focused on differences rather than similarities. Divide rather than unity.

The texts are not historical or meant to be in any way. Stick to that. You don't know their meaning. Only their external and epistemic meaning. Living on the outside of their meaning, not the inside. Outhouse and not inhouse.

Religions seek the outward, and that's where they stay, outside of the truth.

The attempt to desconstruct mythological texts in a historical way, traditional way is misleading. They are internal poetry and symbolism, nothing more.

The traditional view leads to disconnect, and not connect; differences and not similarities; divide and not unity.

Traditional/fundamental scholars, professionals, philosophers are not much different than traditional/fundamental religionists. Both are blind and possess knowledge, and not knowing. Their logic brain gates are closed off to more. It is a shame, that brilliant men and women with great potential can never expand and find more.

Everything is connected and linked, I am sorry you are closed to that.
 
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