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Labeling children as a member of a particular religion is immoral

thau

Well-Known Member
Many people have made this strawman. I never suggest a child should be left to their own ways--my argument has been that children should receive a balanced education of a variety of philosophies, religions, and atheism; then they should be allowed to form their own religious identity without a huge bias. This isn't a child being left to their own ways by any stretch.

And I don't assume God cares about, or ordains anything for that matter, what parents teach their children.

Well then there is no mystery here. Your ideas about God are so far different than mine and ours, well no doubt you do not care what religion the child is exposed to if any. You don't seem to think there is any indication heaven exists or hell exists or it matters much what we do here on earth either way.

So that drives home my point. The evidence for God, and for the Judeo-Christian G-d in particular, is overwhelming and beyond any reasonable doubt. Consequently, so is His many messages and teachings. Consequently, what we do VERY MUCH MATTERS. And what a parent teaches his or her child very much matters how this child will reason and act on godly matters. And God very much said, we as parents are HIGHLY ACCOUNTABLE for the care and proper upbringing of our children. It will impact not only their destiny but our own destiny.

So until you or they come to realize who God is and what He is saying, let us not pretend we will not be diametrically opposed on theological, philosophical and social matters. And all the other worries you bring forth are nothing but crumbs compared to the importance of life after death.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Many people have made this strawman. I never suggest a child should be left to their own ways--my argument has been that children should receive a balanced education of a variety of philosophies, religions, and atheism; then they should be allowed to form their own religious identity without a huge bias. This isn't a child being left to their own ways by any stretch.

Just so you know, that's not at all how your OP reads. It reads like a typical anti-religion, anti-theism rant that I see too often around here. And, as others have pointed out, certain claims in the OP are not particularly defensible. If you had actually written in the OP that "I want children to receive a balanced education with a broad topical understanding" you probably would have had most of the forum agreeing with you instead of going "WTF!?" They're not responding to a "strawman," they're responding to the decidedly hostile tone and heavy-handed presentation of the OP. I'm sorry, but it reads pretty darned extremist.
 

Midnight Rain

Well-Known Member
In the broadest sense I can understand what you mean and why it would be immoral. But on several levels it isn't practical to oppose it.

The first level it is impractical is who gets to decide what is safe to teach the children? Religious individuals may feel that teaching children there is no god would be wrong. Some would say that teaching children there "might be but decide for yourself" is also wrong. And then there are those like you who believe that religious indoctrination of children is wrong. So where does the buck stop when deciding what is okay to teach children and why would they get a say over all the children rather than just their own?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I find that calling a child catholic,or muslim, or hindu, etc, is completely unethical and unfair to the child's development. It inhibits personal advancement and thoughtfulness because its a limitation that is imposed on them--a metaphorical ball and chain. Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have argued, which I agree with, that you wouldn't call a child a republican, or a democrat, or any other political position because a child isn't old enough to understand the complex issues behind various stance--there is nothing more complicated than the nature of reality, which makes religious labeling even more disgusting.

The reasons why religions like this is obvious--its a form of early prostelization that sticks with a child more easily because their families and communities which they grew up with are peer pressuring them to conform to their societal standards. Children are also more susceptible to suggestions. However, it completely demolishes the chance for most children to have an unpolluted period of personal progress where they can individually learn about what beliefs they find most appealing. Religious families inherently tarnish this fundamentally important process.

In an ideal world I would like there to be laws prohibiting the prostelization until they are capable of making more sophisticated judgments. In conclusion parents are doing a disservice to their children by demanding that they stick to the family household religion . It really is a form of child abuse since it obliterates the potential for a child to learn for themselves, instead of being force fed a bunch of garbage created by iron age peasants.
What about calling then atheists or secular.... but just leaving off the title. What then? Does it
really make a difference if you give them a title? I think it is just atheistic drivel.
Dawkins for one would have brought up his daughter as secular, no doubt with clever little arguments to make sure her mind developed one way, and one way only.

Real child abuse is sending your child into torture because of your own beliefs!
Why not bring them up believing in God and doing good for others. Then if there is one,
you have not abused them, your own offspring, just because of your OWN beliefs!
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I find that calling a child catholic,or muslim, or hindu, etc, is completely unethical and unfair to the child's development.
Nonsense. If they are a child of let's say a Catholic, then they are a Catholic child, even if they do not remain it in later life.
It inhibits personal advancement and thoughtfulness because its a limitation that is imposed on them--a metaphorical ball and chain.
Nonsense.
Who are you actually thinking about when you say that?
Why do you think that people cannot be thoughtful just because they understand that intelligence is behind everything rather than luck?
Do not parents tell their children what they think is right.... including atheists? What if the atheists are wrong? What kind of ball and chain are you putting round their necks?
Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have argued, which I agree with, that you wouldn't call a child a republican, or a democrat, or any other political position because a child isn't old enough to understand the complex issues behind various stance--there is nothing more complicated than the nature of reality, which makes religious labeling even more disgusting.
To say it is disgusting is ridiculous. You might well say they are middle class or working class. What is the difference?
The reasons why religions like this is obvious
Is it really!
--its a form of early prostelization
So you are telling me that Dawkins brought his daughter up as a Christian then did he? 'Pot calling the kettle black', I think.
that sticks with a child more easily because their families and communities which they grew up with are peer pressuring them to conform to their societal standards.
As is the case with any family. We do what we think is right for our offspring.
Children are also more susceptible to suggestions.
Such as atheist suggestions perhaps? I don't know, but I'm guessing that Dawkins offspring is not a Christian.
However, it completely demolishes the chance for most children to have an unpolluted period of personal progress where they can individually learn about what beliefs they find most appealing. Religious families inherently tarnish this fundamentally important process.
Important? What if what they are telling them is correct? What if they say don't go too close to the cliff face, but you want them to do have this ''personal progress''.
In an ideal world I would like there to be laws prohibiting the prostelization until they are capable of making more sophisticated judgments.
In an ideal world, it would be heaven, and then we would all believe.
In conclusion parents are doing a disservice to their children by demanding that they stick to the family household religion .
No they are not. They are giving them a chance to save their souls, a soul you don't even believe in because you are a materialist, and therefore limited..... a fact which you seem to be insistent on forcing down everyone else's throat.
It really is a form of child abuse
No it is not. Child abuse is letting them die with no hope!
since it obliterates the potential for a child to learn for themselves,
A child now has to learn for themselves?!? What is this I am reading? Chuck them in a room and say, Learn it yourself, I'll see you in twenty years. The foods over there, and don't forget to change your nappies.
instead of being force fed a bunch of garbage created by iron age peasants.
And there we see the problem. You call God's word, garbage, and therefore force that onto everyone else, presumably you think we should do the same with our children. But some of us understand it! And just because someone lived in the iron age and may have been a peasant, don't forget, they are your forefathers.
Why not say believe in the Father and son and do good to others. Is that so hard? Perhaps your spirit won't allow you to.
But do not forget, with such a formula, I do not think you would come to much harm. If there was not God, then it would make little difference. But if there is, you have just created a mountain of problems for your offspring! Are you prepared to take that responsibility?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I understand that some religious sects have sort of "watered down" traditional religion, but traditionally, Christianity and Islam make "eternity in Hell" a prominent idea. First off, this is a terrifying idea for children, and secondly, this is teaching morality via threats.

I understand that parenting is a complex undertaking and that children go through developmental phases, but - again traditionally - this idea of Hell doesn't tend to mutate as the child develops.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
My mother once said that raising children without any discipline was abuse. What are your thoughts on that?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I understand that some religious sects have sort of "watered down" traditional religion, but traditionally, Christianity and Islam make "eternity in Hell" a prominent idea. First off, this is a terrifying idea for children, and secondly, this is teaching morality via threats.
Guess what? A lot of Christian churches do not focus on hell. There was one church I occasionally visited that never brought it up because they were too busy and too happy singing and praising Jesus and being together.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Guess what? A lot of Christian churches do not focus on hell. There was one church I occasionally visited that never brought it up because they were too busy and too happy singing and praising Jesus and being together.

Awesome, so the OP doesn't really apply so much to that flavor of church. :)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My mother once said that raising children without any discipline was abuse. What are your thoughts on that?

Agreed. When a kid is 4 years old, and runs out into the street, ya gotta grab 'em and keep them from being run over. And they might need to get yelled at. And maybe it's fun for them to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny for a few years. And they should get grounded if they don't do their chores - discipline, yes! But eternal hellfire?... really?
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Just so you know, that's not at all how your OP reads. It reads like a typical anti-religion, anti-theism rant that I see too often around here. And, as others have pointed out, certain claims in the OP are not particularly defensible. If you had actually written in the OP that "I want children to receive a balanced education with a broad topical understanding" you probably would have had most of the forum agreeing with you instead of going "WTF!?" They're not responding to a "strawman," they're responding to the decidedly hostile tone and heavy-handed presentation of the OP. I'm sorry, but it reads pretty darned extremist.

Regardless of how you think it reads, it is still a strawman. People here automatically assume a negative tone towards religion means atheism, which is obviously presumptuous and false. Assuming the presumptions certainly makes it a strawman.

And it is anti religion in the sense that I find that early prostelization is disgusting; same with labeling. Religious families often impose and indoctrinate their children which is why religious belief often depends on geography and community. It is certainly not a strawman though because i never advocate for teaching atheism instead religion as many people allege that I am suggesting. Considering I am an agnostic it is even more presumptuous and false. The op only discussed that the labeling of children is a disgusting . However you want to interpret tone shouldn't put words in my mouth or invent an imaginary position for me. That is why they are responding to a strawman.

Furthmore, based on the tone of your post, it seems as if, but correct me if im wrong, that anti religion discussions are inherently negative or wrong. I find that religion deserves a plethora of skepticism and judgment; religion shouldn't be above sex or politics or anything else that gets a lot of criticism. If anything not enough people criticize religion.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Well then there is no mystery here. Your ideas about God are so far different than mine and ours, well no doubt you do not care what religion the child is exposed to if any. You don't seem to think there is any indication heaven exists or hell exists or it matters much what we do here on earth either way.

So that drives home my point. The evidence for God, and for the Judeo-Christian G-d in particular, is overwhelming and beyond any reasonable doubt. Consequently, so is His many messages and teachings. Consequently, what we do VERY MUCH MATTERS. And what a parent teaches his or her child very much matters how this child will reason and act on godly matters. And God very much said, we as parents are HIGHLY ACCOUNTABLE for the care and proper upbringing of our children. It will impact not only their destiny but our own destiny.

So until you or they come to realize who God is and what He is saying, let us not pretend we will not be diametrically opposed on theological, philosophical and social matters. And all the other worries you bring forth are nothing but crumbs compared to the importance of life after death.

The evidence for God and the judeo Christian God is very underwhelming. There is no good reason to believe in any particular religion. You are probably from a Christian family which is why you think there is lots of evidence. IF you were born in Iran, you'd probably believe that Allah is the greatest, and that Mohammad is his perfect messenger. If you were in India you'd be a hindu and you'd probably believe in Vishnu, Ganesh, and the other Gods.

Lets also talk about the premise of Christianity. Jesus, who is apart of God, comes down from heaven in order to forgive us from himself for sins committed by a non existent fore-bearer(Adam), in order to save us from himself. Could he have simply forgiven us? Yes, but instead he thought it was better to be a scapegoat for the nonexistent original sin of humanity by getting himself killed and tortured. This would be like if a judge said" Okay, you're guilty of this crime that didn't happen, but instead of punishing you im going to have my son tortured and killed so that you can be forgiven." What kind of morality and logic is this? Surely saying God supports this is insulting to God. And furthermore, God could so easily convince all of us about the truth of Christianity RIGHT NOW, without making it extremely difficult to believe. just rearrange the stars in Aramaic to say I am here, Christianity is truth. That would sure convince me.

And God also designed us so perfectly, that we have curiosity and skepticism . The christian God wants us to believe but designed us in such a way to make it extremely difficult--it seems like he doesn't want us to believe and makes elaborate traps to catch us so that he could send us to hell. Not to mention he can see the future so he knew we were going to commit sins and go to hell before he created us--this is also the same God who says we have free will. There are so many contraditions and fallacies that I find it hard to believe that anyone can take this seriously--I was a Christian until I was 13-14 when I realized that I had been indoctrinated to believe that the devil was making me think these bad thoughts.

And yes, even if God does exist, there's no reason to think that he'd care about what we do--especially what we do with our genitals, or whether we pray to him on the sabbath, or any other absurd ritual.

"And God very much said, we as parents are HIGHLY ACCOUNTABLE for the care and proper upbringing of our children. It will impact not only their destiny but our own destiny."
This is the most unfair God of all time. You're doomed to hell because your parents didn't bring you up with the proper faith, or the proper, ambiguous, judeo Christian morals? Or because you were born before Christianity and didn't believe since you couldn't have known about the existence of the abrahamic faiths?

"And all the other worries you bring forth are nothing but crumbs compared to the importance of life after death"
People who obsess about fairy tales after death miss out on life.

And before people jump on me for being off topic, he's the one who first brought the so called "truth" of christianity.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Nonsense. If they are a child of let's say a Catholic, then they are a Catholic child, even if they do not remain it in later life.

Nonsense.
Who are you actually thinking about when you say that?
Why do you think that people cannot be thoughtful just because they understand that intelligence is behind everything rather than luck?
Do not parents tell their children what they think is right.... including atheists? What if the atheists are wrong? What kind of ball and chain are you putting round their necks?

To say it is disgusting is ridiculous. You might well say they are middle class or working class. What is the difference?

Is it really!

So you are telling me that Dawkins brought his daughter up as a Christian then did he? 'Pot calling the kettle black', I think.

As is the case with any family. We do what we think is right for our offspring.

Such as atheist suggestions perhaps? I don't know, but I'm guessing that Dawkins offspring is not a Christian.

Important? What if what they are telling them is correct? What if they say don't go too close to the cliff face, but you want them to do have this ''personal progress''.

In an ideal world, it would be heaven, and then we would all believe.

No they are not. They are giving them a chance to save their souls, a soul you don't even believe in because you are a materialist, and therefore limited..... a fact which you seem to be insistent on forcing down everyone else's throat.

No it is not. Child abuse is letting them die with no hope!

A child now has to learn for themselves?!? What is this I am reading? Chuck them in a room and say, Learn it yourself, I'll see you in twenty years. The foods over there, and don't forget to change your nappies.

And there we see the problem. You call God's word, garbage, and therefore force that onto everyone else, presumably you think we should do the same with our children. But some of us understand it! And just because someone lived in the iron age and may have been a peasant, don't forget, they are your forefathers.
Why not say believe in the Father and son and do good to others. Is that so hard? Perhaps your spirit won't allow you to.
But do not forget, with such a formula, I do not think you would come to much harm. If there was not God, then it would make little difference. But if there is, you have just created a mountain of problems for your offspring! Are you prepared to take that responsibility?

I have addressed many of these strawmans multiple times. I would read through some of my other posts where you will find counter arguments to a person who is a clone of you.

Nonsense. If they are a child of let's say a Catholic, then they are a Catholic child, even if they do not remain it in later life.
And what exactly is your argument here? This certainly doesn't justify labeling a child catholic because they switched later in life.

"Do not parents tell their children what they think is right.... including atheists? What if the atheists are wrong? What kind of ball and chain are you putting round their necks?"

Strawman. I never said teach atheism instead of religion. In fact, the OP only said that the labeling of children as religious and early prostelization is a disgusting practice. I said teach all the religions, philosophies, and atheism, and then let them come to their own conclusions. THis way of teaching is superior since the child will start gaining more and more knowledge until they feel confident enough to make an informed decision, rather than an indoctrinated decision. However, for example, I don't think parents should teach their children that the earth is 6000 years old and that humans coexisted with dinosaurs.

So you are telling me that Dawkins brought his daughter up as a Christian then did he? 'Pot calling the kettle black', I think.
Red herring. Besides quoting one of dawkin's arguments, how is this relevant to my argument?

To say it is disgusting is ridiculous. You might well say they are middle class or working class. What is the difference?
Again as I have argued, you're assuming that all impositions are equivalent in weight. Giving someone a name, or telling them they are female, or associating them with an economic bracket are all facts. Religion is not a fact--just because you are born in a Catholic family does not make you a catholic believer or catholic child, especially when the child doesn't have the capacity to even understand complex religious concepts. Again you wouldn't call a child who can't understand politics a republican or a democrat. It makes no sense.

In an ideal world, it would be heaven, and then we would all believe.
God has infinite power so why didn't he do this? He allows suffering, misery, and horrible atheists like dawkins to exist, which makes no sense if he wants what's best for humanity.

Such as atheist suggestions perhaps? I don't know, but I'm guessing that Dawkins offspring is not a Christian.
Another strawman. I never advocated for only teaching atheism. And again another red herring comment about Dawkins.

A child now has to learn for themselves?!? What is this I am reading? Chuck them in a room and say, Learn it yourself, I'll see you in twenty years. The foods over there, and don't forget to change your nappies.

You're on a role, HUGE strawman. In fact this is one of your most embarrassing. Learning about what beliefs to believe in doesn't suggest locking them in a room and having them teach themselves. They would obviously be educated, but in all the faiths and philosophies, and then from that they would learn about what beliefs they find they most closely align with.

Your colorful pathos also doesn't support your argument.

Important? What if what they are telling them is correct? What if they say don't go too close to the cliff face, but you want them to do have this ''personal progress''.
Obviously this is a false analogy.Being told not to fall off a cliff or go with strangers will prevent them from dying or from being injured. Religious beliefs won't prevent a child from dying. This kind of analogy also implies that religious beliefs will save you which you certainly haven't proven or demonstrated.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
In the broadest sense I can understand what you mean and why it would be immoral. But on several levels it isn't practical to oppose it.

The first level it is impractical is who gets to decide what is safe to teach the children? Religious individuals may feel that teaching children there is no god would be wrong. Some would say that teaching children there "might be but decide for yourself" is also wrong. And then there are those like you who believe that religious indoctrination of children is wrong. So where does the buck stop when deciding what is okay to teach children and why would they get a say over all the children rather than just their own?
Well i totally agree that it is impractical in real life. After all religious parents would never accept the government to come in and control what they tell their children--not to mention the fact that it would likely clash with the first amendment (many countries have some version of this) and generally be an unpopular move politically since the United States for instance has man many religious people, as well as many other countries. And of course i believe that I am the one who gets to say lol, not because my argument is based in moral authority but because it is tthe most reasonable. It actually is based on the premise that people should be allowed to believe what they want without propaganda and indoctrination. The best way to do this is to teach a person, or a child, all the information, or as much as possible, regarding philosophies, religion, and atheism and then let them come to their own conclusions. This seems like the most fair way for a person to discover what they want their beliefs to be.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Where do you think morality for any given society comes from? Certainly not just religion, but religion is a factor. Amongst us anthropologists, we refer to religion as one of the "five basic institutions" all societies that we know of have and have had (the other four are family, political, economic, and educational).
Religion can't be considered a "basic institution" of a multicultural society, simply because it's not common to that society. When you have a society made up of Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, atheists, and people who just don't care about religion, exactly which religion is the "institution" of the society?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Religion can't be considered a "basic institution" of a multicultural society, simply because it's not common to that society. When you have a society made up of Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, atheists, and people who just don't care about religion, exactly which religion is the "institution" of the society?
It is still a basic institution in a multicultural society because all the pluralistic groups bring in and often adhere to their own cultural backgrounds, and often intermingle with the institutions of the other present cultures. And it is considered a basic institute because it is an institute that has been present, in as far as we can tell, every human culture that is and has ever been. Of course the different religions vary, but it is simply impossible to name even a single culture that has not had it. It being a basic institute has nothing to do with the type or brand of religion, but its very presence.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Religion can't be considered a "basic institution" of a multicultural society, simply because it's not common to that society. When you have a society made up of Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, atheists, and people who just don't care about religion, exactly which religion is the "institution" of the society?
Every single society we have ever studied has a large number, almost always a majority of the population, that deem themselves to believe in a god or gods. Also, organized religion performs various functions in societies, even if the leaders try to suppress religion as we saw with some of the Marxist leaders.

It is not I who put it in the five but an overall consensus of anthropologists, and it applies also in multi-religious countries as well. The issue is not dealing with a state-religion but with overall beliefs and places of worship/meditation.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Every single society we have ever studied has a large number, almost always a majority of the population, that deem themselves to believe in a god or gods. Also, organized religion performs various functions in societies, even if the leaders try to suppress religion as we saw with some of the Marxist leaders.

It is not I who put it in the five but an overall consensus of anthropologists, and it applies also in multi-religious countries as well. The issue is not dealing with a state-religion but with overall beliefs and places of worship/meditation.
The problem here is that people and groups often define themselves not only in terms of what they accept, but also in terms of what they reject.

We can see this clearly in the history of my own country: Canada was founded by people who were not only Protestant and Catholic but also anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant. When they came together to build a nation, they set religion aside... at least at the national level. There is no "religious institution" in Canada; there are many separate religious institutions, plural.

It's not correct to say that Canada's "two solitudes" of a Francophone Canada where Catholic bishops weilded significant influence and an Anglophone Canada where the Orange Order largely controlled Provincial legislatures ever had one single religious institution that captured some sort of religious common ground.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The problem here is that people and groups often define themselves not only in terms of what they accept, but also in terms of what they reject.

We can see this clearly in the history of my own country: Canada was founded by people who were not only Protestant and Catholic but also anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant. When they came together to build a nation, they set religion aside... at least at the national level. There is no "religious institution" in Canada; there are many separate religious institutions, plural.

It's not correct to say that Canada's "two solitudes" of a Francophone Canada where Catholic bishops weilded significant influence and an Anglophone Canada where the Orange Order largely controlled Provincial legislatures ever had one single religious institution that captured some sort of religious common ground.
The terminology "five basic institutions" does not mean or imply there's only one form in each category or that any particular form is legally recognized. For example, one of the "five basic institutions" is education, which is multifaceted in each society.

Therefore, Canada, which I just returned from about two hours ago, btw, definitely qualifies.
 
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