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Labeling children as a member of a particular religion is immoral

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
That presents a basis, but does not indicate or suggest that there is evidence to indicate any such basis exists.

True enough. How about this... how does a religious person derive morals from their religion? Isn't it typically the case that they have their moral compass going in, and then they cherry pick the parts of their religion that map to the morals they already have? We know for sure that virtually every religious person cherry picks their scripture, right?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would much rather have a child grow up in a religiously moral environment than not, and if the child wishes to switch as they get older, as two of my three children did, that's perfectly fine with me. They were brought up Catholic, one now is still Catholic, another converted to Judaism, and the third is secular.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
That was a know condition causing speech problems.

Uncircumcised babies don't have any more problems then circumcised ones. All of the so-called problems being brought up - are in sexually active people, and there are sites countering these.


"100+ circumcision deaths each year in United States
Each year in the United States more than 100 newborn baby boys die as a result of circumcision and circumcision complications. This is the alarming conclusion of a study, published in the journal Thymos, which examined hospital discharge and mortality statistics in order to answer two questions: (1) How many baby boys dies as a result of circumcision in the neonatal period (within 28 days of birth)? (2) Why are so few of these deaths officially recorded as due to circumcision?"

Circumcision deaths in USA | Circinfo.org

*
You didn't understand my point. The tongue thing would cause a problem with speech later on.

No circumcision would cause the Jewish father's son to be "Kareit" (spiritual excision), which means the child would have no part in the world to come.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe the same thing, the father is only doing what he feels is absolutely best for his child. By clipping the tongue, he helps raise the chance that his son will be able to speak flawlessly. By circumcision, he is insuring that his son still has a place in the World To Come, or so he believes, and that's all that really matters...
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Well I think we're in agreement because I am not advocating for parents to only support athiesm. I think parents should provide an avenue to explore athiesm as well as other philosophies and religious beliefs to come to their own conclusions.

kids have access to the internet...they can find all the information they want online.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Common sense says that people no matter their age have a right to an intact body.

Given human history up to and including today, this would seem to be quite "uncommon sense". It is certainly common in many places in the world, but is historically uncommon basically everywhere and is uncommon today in many places. Part of this is because the concept of humanity, the notion that people are people (are all members of the human race) regardless of nationality, race, gender, religion, etc., is recent. The dominant paradigm was to consider one's own "people" (one's tribe, clan, nation, empire, etc.) as superior to others such that "common sense" said other "peoples" had no rights at all, not even to life. Also, even within a "people", generally "common sense" dictated that women and frequently children were more or less possessions.


However, let us grant that such views are indeed immoral, as I hope we can agree that wives and children are not "possessions" that e.g., the paterfamilias is within his rights to kill at will.


Raising children involves constructing part of their worldview. Labels or no labels, everything from facial expressions and stated opinions to general demeanor and outlook of one or more persons raising a child will affect the way that child sees the world. As intimated (if not stated directly), one need not label one's child "republican" to instill the beliefs that go along with such a label, and this is usually what happens even when one consciously attempts not to do it.


A more extreme example may be found by considering racism & sexism: a child's guardian can instill racist and sexist beliefs not only without labels, but without believing that they have done so or that the views held (by child or guardian) are in fact either sexist or racist.


A relevant and interesting book, albeit a controversial one I find many issues with, is Closing of the American Mind:

“There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative. If this belief is put to the test, one can count on the students' reaction: they will be uncomprehending. That anyone should regard the proposition as not self-evident astonishes them, as though he were calling into question 2 + 4 = 4…The students' backgrounds are as various as America can provide. Some are religious, some atheists; some are to the Left, some to the Right; some intend to be scientists, some humanists or professionals or businessmen; some are poor, some rich…The relativity of truth is not a theoretical insight but a moral postulate…They have all been equipped with this framework early on, and it is the modern replacement for the inalienable natural rights that used to be the traditional American grounds for a free society…The danger they have been taught to fear from absolutism is not error but intolerance…The true believer is the real danger…The students, of course, cannot defend their opinion. It is something with which they have been indoctrinated.”


Before returning to the ways in which this is true (and not true) I leave aside for the moment to address a much less contentious point made after the introductory chapter that is also directly relevant here:


“The Europeans got most of the culture they were going to get from their homes and their public schools, lycées, or gymnasiums, where their souls were incorporated into their specific literary traditions, which in turn expressed, and even founded, their traditions as peoples. It was not simply or primarily that these European schoolchildren had a vastly more sophisticated knowledge of the human heart than we were accustomed to in the young or, for that matter, the old. It was that their self-knowledge was mediated by their book learning and that their ambitions were formed as much by models first experienced in books as in everyday life. Their books had a substantial existence in everyday life and constituted much of what their society as a whole looked up to. It was commonplace for children of what they called good families to fill their imaginations with hopes of serious literary or philosophic careers, as do ours with hopes of careers in entertainment or business. All this was given to them early on, and by the time they were in their late teens it was part of the equipment of their souls, a lens through which they saw everything and which would affect all their later learning and experience."

“Young Americans seemed, in comparison, to be natural savages when they came to the university. They had hardly heard the names of the writers who were the daily fare of their counterparts across the Atlantic, let alone took it into their heads that they could have a relationship to them. ‘What's Hecuba to him or he to Hecuba?’... But for me, and for many better observers, this constituted a large part of the charm of American students. Very often natural curiosity and love of knowing appeared to come into their own in the first flush of maturity...European students whom I taught always knew all about Rousseau and Kant, but such writers had been drummed into them from childhood and, in the new world after the war, they had become routine, as much a part of childhood's limitations as short pants, no longer a source of inspiration...But for Americans the works of the great writers could be the bright sunlit uplands where they could find the outside, the authentic liberation for which this essay is a plea.”


The first thing to note is that in addition to being overly dramatic, too much influence is placed on literary traditions and too little on other sociocultural & familial influences. While this is partly made-up for later in the book, the author’s biases as a philosopher and classicists whose expertise in even the social sciences was so influenced by philosophical works he projected their power over him onto his subjects (i.e., in this case university students). The second is that, while over-emphasized, there was indeed an incredible influence exerted upon European children not via labels or religion but by education of all things. In particular, the philosophical works deemed most important within a particular nation yet far beyond the ability for young children to read critically or even absorb without prescribed meanings & interpretations given them shaped core aspects of their persons, including moral beliefs. The comparatively untutored American students, while relatively ignorant were exposed to the ideas within such important philosophical works when mature enough to critically evaluate and interpret them.


That American student, argues Bloom, is extinct. In part s/he was replaced when, instead of instilling a particular philosophical and literary mindset pre-college education focused more on math and science, but “presented in technical and uninspired fashion…students apparently learned what they were asked to learn…many of the best students’ dedication to science was very thing.”

More importantly (and not just in America; just most pronounced there), the ability to be exposed to the works of great philosophers with an open-mind had, ironically, been eradicated by the doctrine of “openness” or relativism. It is here important to note that Bloom is not arguing against relativism per se, and does not describe students who reach such a position through critical thinking and study.


While much of the book reflects not only the biases of the author’s academic field but also his politics, a lot of the problems are in Bloom’s presentation. I have attached a review of Bloom and his critics so as to avoid providing one and going far-astray.


Here, the relevant points that have at least some truth are that relativism is and has been increasingly an indoctrinated belief that is assumed not questioned, as I have found over the years posing questions like an example Bloom gives:

“If I pose the routine questions designed to confute them and make them think, such as, "If you had been a British administrator in India, would you have let the natives under your governance burn the widow at the funeral of a man who had died?," they either remain silent or reply that the British should never have been there in the first place.”

Also important is that all education is indoctrination (this is and was for the most part the central meaning until the “threat of communism”). The influence on young Italian minds of Dante and Machiavelli (at least at the time of Bloom’s writing) was part of cultural ethos as deeply rooted and fundamental as any religious belief. In fact, while I know a contemporary of Bloom’s who was also a non-religious Jew whose knowledge of the Bible was rivaled only by appreciation for its literary influence, Bloom’s discussions on religious beliefs are often what one might mistake for a Christian’s argument if exposed to them out of context. Yet of Marx’s replacement of God with a teleological history he states one “might as well be a Christian if one is so naïve” and rather considers the “death of God” much as Nietzsche did (I say much because I don’t believe his presentation of Nietzsche to be wholly accurate).


This thread is a testament to the kind of blind acceptance as a truism that which denies itself: relativism. The idea that the penultimate believer, the religious person, is the true danger because the religious (especially believers in “traditional” religions like e.g., Christianity as opposed to e.g., Wicca) often believe not only that their religious views are true but that ideally all should believe likewise is accompanied almost always by an equally pervasive doctrine. The difference is that religious doctrines are held to be so, while too often the idea that relativism is an ideology, provided not discovered, is missed. For instance:



No one has a right to alter it, especially when it is for no legit reason.

“no legit reason” assumes a basis that is treated as fact, not belief or assumption. Likewise, the belief that labeling children as Christian, Muslim, Bahá'í, etc., is wrong because of its effect upon the development of some “correct” worldview or at least a more critical mind is defeated by its own assumptions. This is not to say that arguments can’t be marshaled for the view, nor that there are not many who hold such views yet are aware of the extent to which they are doctrines too, just that when such a doctrine is espoused as it has been here without even the suggestion that it may be a doctrine, it means assuming a basis for what constitute “legit reasons” for action that are not recognized as assumptions because they are so ingrained, unquestioned, and thus constitute critique of dogmata while unknowingly espousing one. If dogma is to be avoided because it is uncritical, then surely dogma held unconsciously, without awareness or realization of its presence or effects, is doubly so.
 

Attachments

  • On misunderstanding allan bloom- The response toThe Closing of the American Mind.pdf
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Given human history up to and including today, this would seem to be quite "uncommon sense". It is certainly common in many places in the world, but is historically uncommon basically everywhere and is uncommon today in many places. Part of this is because the concept of humanity, the notion that people are people (are all members of the human race) regardless of nationality, race, gender, religion, etc., is recent. The dominant paradigm was to consider one's own "people" (one's tribe, clan, nation, empire, etc.) as superior to others such that "common sense" said other "peoples" had no rights at all, not even to life. Also, even within a "people", generally "common sense" dictated that women and frequently children were more or less possessions.


However, let us grant that such views are indeed immoral, as I hope we can agree that wives and children are not "possessions" that e.g., the paterfamilias is within his rights to kill at will.


Raising children involves constructing part of their worldview. Labels or no labels, everything from facial expressions and stated opinions to general demeanor and outlook of one or more persons raising a child will affect the way that child sees the world. As intimated (if not stated directly), one need not label one's child "republican" to instill the beliefs that go along with such a label, and this is usually what happens even when one consciously attempts not to do it.


A more extreme example may be found by considering racism & sexism: a child's guardian can instill racist and sexist beliefs not only without labels, but without believing that they have done so or that the views held (by child or guardian) are in fact either sexist or racist.


A relevant and interesting book, albeit a controversial one I find many issues with, is Closing of the American Mind:

“There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative. If this belief is put to the test, one can count on the students' reaction: they will be uncomprehending. That anyone should regard the proposition as not self-evident astonishes them, as though he were calling into question 2 + 4 = 4…The students' backgrounds are as various as America can provide. Some are religious, some atheists; some are to the Left, some to the Right; some intend to be scientists, some humanists or professionals or businessmen; some are poor, some rich…The relativity of truth is not a theoretical insight but a moral postulate…They have all been equipped with this framework early on, and it is the modern replacement for the inalienable natural rights that used to be the traditional American grounds for a free society…The danger they have been taught to fear from absolutism is not error but intolerance…The true believer is the real danger…The students, of course, cannot defend their opinion. It is something with which they have been indoctrinated.”


Before returning to the ways in which this is true (and not true) I leave aside for the moment to address a much less contentious point made after the introductory chapter that is also directly relevant here:


“The Europeans got most of the culture they were going to get from their homes and their public schools, lycées, or gymnasiums, where their souls were incorporated into their specific literary traditions, which in turn expressed, and even founded, their traditions as peoples. It was not simply or primarily that these European schoolchildren had a vastly more sophisticated knowledge of the human heart than we were accustomed to in the young or, for that matter, the old. It was that their self-knowledge was mediated by their book learning and that their ambitions were formed as much by models first experienced in books as in everyday life. Their books had a substantial existence in everyday life and constituted much of what their society as a whole looked up to. It was commonplace for children of what they called good families to fill their imaginations with hopes of serious literary or philosophic careers, as do ours with hopes of careers in entertainment or business. All this was given to them early on, and by the time they were in their late teens it was part of the equipment of their souls, a lens through which they saw everything and which would affect all their later learning and experience."

“Young Americans seemed, in comparison, to be natural savages when they came to the university. They had hardly heard the names of the writers who were the daily fare of their counterparts across the Atlantic, let alone took it into their heads that they could have a relationship to them. ‘What's Hecuba to him or he to Hecuba?’... But for me, and for many better observers, this constituted a large part of the charm of American students. Very often natural curiosity and love of knowing appeared to come into their own in the first flush of maturity...European students whom I taught always knew all about Rousseau and Kant, but such writers had been drummed into them from childhood and, in the new world after the war, they had become routine, as much a part of childhood's limitations as short pants, no longer a source of inspiration...But for Americans the works of the great writers could be the bright sunlit uplands where they could find the outside, the authentic liberation for which this essay is a plea.”


The first thing to note is that in addition to being overly dramatic, too much influence is placed on literary traditions and too little on other sociocultural & familial influences. While this is partly made-up for later in the book, the author’s biases as a philosopher and classicists whose expertise in even the social sciences was so influenced by philosophical works he projected their power over him onto his subjects (i.e., in this case university students). The second is that, while over-emphasized, there was indeed an incredible influence exerted upon European children not via labels or religion but by education of all things. In particular, the philosophical works deemed most important within a particular nation yet far beyond the ability for young children to read critically or even absorb without prescribed meanings & interpretations given them shaped core aspects of their persons, including moral beliefs. The comparatively untutored American students, while relatively ignorant were exposed to the ideas within such important philosophical works when mature enough to critically evaluate and interpret them.


That American student, argues Bloom, is extinct. In part s/he was replaced when, instead of instilling a particular philosophical and literary mindset pre-college education focused more on math and science, but “presented in technical and uninspired fashion…students apparently learned what they were asked to learn…many of the best students’ dedication to science was very thing.”

More importantly (and not just in America; just most pronounced there), the ability to be exposed to the works of great philosophers with an open-mind had, ironically, been eradicated by the doctrine of “openness” or relativism. It is here important to note that Bloom is not arguing against relativism per se, and does not describe students who reach such a position through critical thinking and study.


While much of the book reflects not only the biases of the author’s academic field but also his politics, a lot of the problems are in Bloom’s presentation. I have attached a review of Bloom and his critics so as to avoid providing one and going far-astray.


Here, the relevant points that have at least some truth are that relativism is and has been increasingly an indoctrinated belief that is assumed not questioned, as I have found over the years posing questions like an example Bloom gives:

“If I pose the routine questions designed to confute them and make them think, such as, "If you had been a British administrator in India, would you have let the natives under your governance burn the widow at the funeral of a man who had died?," they either remain silent or reply that the British should never have been there in the first place.”

Also important is that all education is indoctrination (this is and was for the most part the central meaning until the “threat of communism”). The influence on young Italian minds of Dante and Machiavelli (at least at the time of Bloom’s writing) was part of cultural ethos as deeply rooted and fundamental as any religious belief. In fact, while I know a contemporary of Bloom’s who was also a non-religious Jew whose knowledge of the Bible was rivaled only by appreciation for its literary influence, Bloom’s discussions on religious beliefs are often what one might mistake for a Christian’s argument if exposed to them out of context. Yet of Marx’s replacement of God with a teleological history he states one “might as well be a Christian if one is so naïve” and rather considers the “death of God” much as Nietzsche did (I say much because I don’t believe his presentation of Nietzsche to be wholly accurate).


This thread is a testament to the kind of blind acceptance as a truism that which denies itself: relativism. The idea that the penultimate believer, the religious person, is the true danger because the religious (especially believers in “traditional” religions like e.g., Christianity as opposed to e.g., Wicca) often believe not only that their religious views are true but that ideally all should believe likewise is accompanied almost always by an equally pervasive doctrine. The difference is that religious doctrines are held to be so, while too often the idea that relativism is an ideology, provided not discovered, is missed. For instance:





“no legit reason” assumes a basis that is treated as fact, not belief or assumption. Likewise, the belief that labeling children as Christian, Muslim, Bahá'í, etc., is wrong because of its effect upon the development of some “correct” worldview or at least a more critical mind is defeated by its own assumptions. This is not to say that arguments can’t be marshaled for the view, nor that there are not many who hold such views yet are aware of the extent to which they are doctrines too, just that when such a doctrine is espoused as it has been here without even the suggestion that it may be a doctrine, it means assuming a basis for what constitute “legit reasons” for action that are not recognized as assumptions because they are so ingrained, unquestioned, and thus constitute critique of dogmata while unknowingly espousing one. If dogma is to be avoided because it is uncritical, then surely dogma held unconsciously, without awareness or realization of its presence or effects, is doubly so.

However we are in a modern era, in which it is generally understood by most nations that a person's body - is their own. No one has a right to just alter it. Circumcision of babies will eventually be banned in most modern countries. People wanting it can get it done later.

*
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
However we are in a modern era
Very true. Never before have extremists been able to rely on Web 2.0 to disseminate beheading videos.

And secular countries, a fairly modern phenomena, have never before been able to not only lock-up individuals who have committed no crimes, but force them to take mind-altering and brain-damaging substances. In fact, the capacity for mandatory consumption of drugs that physically alter one's brain with the deliberate attempt to change how their minds work been so widespread. Indeed, modernity has not just increased both the dissemination of material containing images or descriptions of forced physical alterations but also the sheer number of ways in which we are able to alter someone's body (from medical amputations to those done as penalty for theft; from chemical castration of various types to that modern lobotomy we call electroconvulsive therapy; from setting broken bones to the insertion of artificial ones; and so on).

Some of these most would argue are good, even unbelievable advances and triumphs in the medical sciences. Others have many detractors but many proponents. And some are regarded as wrong by most. None of this, of course, justifies anything. The fact that we live in a particular time and or culture no more justifies particular moral views than does religion or any ideology.

Also, speaking of contexts, I brought up circumcision in a specific context (namely, how you blame me for taking what you say out of context when I'm exploring- whether fallaciously or rightly- what your statements entail). This thread is on labeling children as members of a particular religion and whether (as the OP asserts) this is wrong, along with why.

By all means continue to speak about the sanctity of one's autonomy, especially as it relates to their body. If you could just do so generally rather than repeatedly talking about one example, it would be more related to the thread and better enable you to defend your underlying reasons as well as defenses for the kinds of alterations or denial of said autonomy that you may condone.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
True enough. How about this... how does a religious person derive morals from their religion? Isn't it typically the case that they have their moral compass going in, and then they cherry pick the parts of their religion that map to the morals they already have?
In order to "cherry-pick" morals from their religion, the religion must include these as moral truths, which typically means that a good many people believe them to be and even more universal that at one time they were all held true (although interpretation always plays a role when doctrine is involved; the NT is filled with interpretations of Jewish scripture and, especially when we come to the epistles, of Christianity itself; the religious jurisprudence present both in Islamic and Jewish traditions involves the generating of religious texts and traditions out of interpretation to a degree that is almost an art and most certainly a matter for trained, skilled practitioners; many if not most "ancient religions" are basically modern in that they were created by the addition of doctrine to what religions have usually been: practices & rituals that were indistinguishable as independent from sociocultural, familial, civic/political, and other "norms").

So to an extent even when not cherry-picking beliefs out of the sum total available given a religious doctrine, interpretation can play very much a similar (even identical) role.

That said, we tend to consider "innate" certain properties we ascribe to a "universal" moral compass that is actually the result of several centuries of a particular worldview over a rather large area of the Earth. History provides a much more illuminating view of how limited the general development of a moral compass can be and normally was. Almost every known culture has treated women as anywhere from property to merely lesser than men. What we call genocide today in one sense is a new phenomenon, in that the idea of "race" vs. genos made it impossible to wipe out a "people" or engage in ethnic cleansing the way one can today. However, standard practice for most of history was if you could go into the neighboring city-state, village, region of an empire, fiefdom, etc., and kill at least all or most of the men, rape the women, and kill and/or enslave women and children, you did.

To the extent we possess innate morality, such that one's moral compass is likely to develop in particular directions, it is based upon empathy. With the ability to see another as in some sense alike to one's self, comes the development of beliefs concerning right and wrong. But the basis, from an evolutionary, psychological perspective is the incredibly long period during which human offspring are not capable of surviving without "parental" (biological or metaphorical) care. Basically, in order for one to increase the likelihood that one's genes are passed on, one has to devote a great deal of resources and time to one's offspring. Familial empathetic "ties" are powerful mechanisms for this very reason, and it is the extension from immediate family to relatives to tribe that formed the basis for our moral compass over the 4.5 million years humans have, in some form, existed and the c. 150,000 years that Homo sapien sapiens have existed. The development of agriculture some ~12,000 years ago started to make possible larger communities, but the same evolutionary mechanisms that encouraged the survival of small clans/tribes for tens of thousands of years ago are related to a very different kind of social psychological dynamics: warfare. The ability identify one's family and then one's tribe as members of a unit in which natural empathetic ties as well as those taught also are behind the alienation of other tribes/units/clans/etc. and viewing their members as "the other" who can be killed/harmed without remorse.

We know for sure that virtually every religious person cherry picks their scripture, right?
No, there's a very large exception there. The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches (the former alone having around as many members what is probably the largest religion, i.e., Islam), esp. the RCC, have a different "relationship" with scripture. The Catholic church prevented the translation of the Vulgate to prevent most Catholics from being able to read scripture, even in the 20th century mass was all in Latin, and though translations have been available to Catholics for years the fact that the Church is the authority (and this is true of Eastern Orthodox too) makes cherry-picking scripture somewhat if not totally irrelevant. Also, the pope can speak ex cathedra or with infallibility (basically speaking as God, or at least with as much authority of as scripture), sola scriptura is a Protestant doctrine, and both have apostolic tradition. However, this mostly translates into cherry-picking which aspects of doctrine to accept.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
However we are in a modern era, in which it is generally understood by most nations that a person's body - is their own. No one has a right to just alter it. Circumcision of babies will eventually be banned in most modern countries. People wanting it can get it done later.

*
My husband insisted that my sons get circumcised when they were born, for non-religious reasons. Neither one of my sons have ever complained about it. My brother never complained about it, either. I never once heard any man complain about it happening to them. What about babies getting their ears pierced?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
My husband insisted that my sons get circumcised when they were born, for non-religious reasons. Neither one of my sons have ever complained about it. My brother never complained about it, either. I never once heard any man complain about it happening to them. What about babies getting their ears pierced?

I've heard men complain that they had no choice.

Also did you see that one hundred plus deaths per year in the USA? And that has to mean a lot more damage that didn't end in death. I think in our last discussion on this someone posted a story about a baby who lost his penis from complications during this procedure, and they then decided to turn him into her - it didn't work.

Ear piercing of children should also be banned. There are a lot of complications and hospital visits from ear piercing. I have a friend that is a piercer, and she won't pierce children. She said their ears consistently get infected, or the earrings get ripped out of the ear.

*
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
1. the
circumcision of children is not a problem of Christian
We Christians have not adhered to inpractice
And do not consider it to be of the faith
It can be prevented and would not object to any Christian
If you want my idea
Circumcision is the best
I'm married and be circumcised for medical reasons
and i left the choice of my children also
Free to keep or remove the foreskin
2. Islam and Judaism not they approach prevention for children
Because of their debt terms
3. the Jewish circumcision in the interpretation of its own
4. Islam has a special interpretation to circumcision is different from Judaism
5. other religions i don't know their position on circumcision
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
The childdoes not have the freedom of choice
For a minor
This legal concept
The right care and be the parent
In the cases decided in the best interest of the child and the parents are doing on behalf of all legal actions
This keeps the parents about the child legally mso'o'lin
And the State have the right guidance
And also to prevent damage to the child
And b e able to determine the feasibility of conducting this surgery
You can rely on the medical report
In each case
And respected doctor in the decision
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
We return to the subject of dialogue-.
1. religious education curriculum can be developed from the State
As doIslamic countries
2. religious education is on general principles
And when the focus is on concepts and precepts
3. subject to such education
4. control of churches and mosques, banned from teaching for any word where the meaning of hate
5. curriculum is the study of those who know of religions
6. all religions are equal
7. the Islamic States in this international treaty
8-Prevent Word there is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of God
They force the mystical
It damages children's education
God's Wordis rue
But Muhammad is the Messenger of God
Have a negative impact
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Childrenin the Bible-
1. Matthew (let the children come to me, and don't they prevent them because of such a Kingdom of heaven
2. Mark also
3. Luke also
These words of Christ
About children
Is this as erious education on human
I request Muslim to offe r me an Islamic education
In this sense
And this interest in children
That child has a special interestin Christianity
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
True enough. How about this... how does a religious person derive morals from their religion? Isn't it typically the case that they have their moral compass going in, and then they cherry pick the parts of their religion that map to the morals they already have? We know for sure that virtually every religious person cherry picks their scripture, right?

Is cherry picking a bad thing?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
kids have access to the internet...they can find all the information they want online.

Uh....

Without being taught how to properly do research, they won't know how to find the real information amidst the mountains of trash.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yes, by definition. Informed selection based on analyses of one's religion and (IMO) in tandem with other religions and philosophies which results in such 'informed picking" is a different matter.

Fair enough, as long as the distinction is clear, and that apparent cherry picking (or rather, misinformed picking?) isn't applied to misunderstood informed picking, as the relevant post most likely did with the broad generalization.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
cherry picking (or rather, misinformed picking?) isn't applied to misunderstood informed picking
Well I can't speak for others, but the above sounds exactly right to me: cherry-picking is misinformed picking and shouldn't be confused with informed analyses and selection (i.e., "informed picking").
 
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