Labeling children as a member of a particular religion is immoral

[sojourner]

I think that there's a range of attitude towards both religion and football that aren't captured in your argument, but regardless...
Even if your religion is your way of being, it's YOUR way of being, and IMO it's rather heinous for someone to try to impose a "way of being" on someone else.

Parents parent best by being honest about who they are, and imparting those cultural and personal values to their children. That's how child-rearing works.

 

[metis]

It seems to me that many working couples have figured out childcare solutions for times when both parents are busy.


Respect for their child.


How can they pick a cricket position if they've never played cricket as all?

Despite the importancethat religion plays in your own life, it *is* optional.


And my college girlfriend's sister, who went to a Catholic school, described her world religions course as her "class in how everything but the Catholic Church is wrong." Religious upbringing can often be an impediment to wider religious exploration.


I'm suggesting a kid-centered approach instead of one that revolves around the beliefs and interests of the parent.

I'm also saying that bringing up a kid to be focused on a single religion often hampers interaction in that multi-religious society. It seems like you're assuming a UU-ish religious upbringing, but religious upbringings run over a wide spectrum, and it isn't reasonable to expect, say, a kid to gain a deeper understanding and appreciation of Catholicism from an Orange Lodge upbringing.

I honestly believe you're grasping at straws with the above. Religion is a lot like having a car-- it can be used for good or evil or grey areas in between. It is neither intrinsically good nor evil, but one way or another it is a part of our education which you seemingly try to avoid but whereas we simply cannot. Ignorance is not the answer, but a well-rounded education on the matter can be.

 

[sojourner]

Religious identity does not need to be part and parcel of family identity.

Of course not. But if the family is religious, then religion is part of the family identity.

My Mom was religious but respected my sister and I enough not to impose her religious beliefs on us.

My parents are both religious, but respected the kids enough to not impose their religious beliefs on us, too. Instead, they taught the discernment, openness, love, understanding,, mercy, compassion, forbearance, and fair-mindedness that a religious upbringing fostered, as well as an appreciation for the myths, teachings and traditions of the same.

I think I read you just fine.

No. You didn't, or you wouldn't have posted the response you posted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But if a child is brought up so as (s)he doesn't even know what football is, how can (s)he make an educated choice?

How would a child grow up in this society without knowing what football (or religion) is, even if they weren't immersed in it at home?

No matter how thorough you are exposing kids to stuff they might be passionate about, you won't be able to show them everything. For instance, I'd be useless to teach kids about Asian languages. Would not teaching kids about Asian languages mean that they might miss out on something that inspires them? Sure... but as long as they find something to engage with, mission accomplished.

For me, it's better to bring them up understanding the basics of football, baseball, soccer, etc., and then they can make an educated selection if they so choose to do so later. I'm for education but not for brainwashing, and we didn't bring our kids up doing the latter.

So then you'd be opposed to an upbringing where kids are pressured to play football alone, and where taking up soccer would create family tension?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course not. But if the family is religious, then religion is part of the family identity.

You're contradicting yourself. If your religion is part of "the family identity", then at the very least, you're setting up family pressures that would discourage a full exploration of religions (or lack of religion) not in keeping with that "family identity".

 

[paarsurrey]

I find that calling a child catholic,or muslim, or hindu, etc, is completely unethical and unfair to the child's development.

It is part of education of the child and is ethical and moral.
Do you think that parents should play no role in a child's education?
When the child matures he/she has to right to form his/her on opinion.

Regards

 

[sojourner]

How would a child grow up in this society without knowing what football (or religion) is, even if they weren't immersed in it at home?

I know plenty of people who are disturbingly ignorant of religion. And I live in the buckle of the bible belt.

Would not teaching kids about Asian languages mean that they might miss out on something that inspires them? Sure... but as long as they find something to engage with, mission accomplished.

Religion is more than just "something to engage with."

 

[Nakosis]

Would it be immoral to call a child an atheist who was raised an atheist?
Should parents be silent about their beliefs or lack of beliefs?

I imagine parents believe as they believe because they feel it is a good belief to have. So therefore it'd be a good belief for their children to have,

I don't believe it is immoral to for a parent to teach their child what is right. As they mature, and if they have a problem with their belief, they can always change it and call themselves something else.

 

[ChristineES]

I am sure that this has been brought up already, but, being old, I don't recall. But what about children who label themselves a certain religion? I am speaking of children age 8 and older, of course. Can a, say, 9 or a 10 year old make that decision? I know that I would have been able to make that decision, if I had been exposed to religions at that age (I wasn't, really, outside of going to one or two services with friends).
What do you think?

 

[sojourner]

You're contradicting yourself. If your religion is part of "the family identity", then at the very least, you're setting up family pressures that would discourage a full exploration of religions (or lack of religion) not in keeping with that "family identity".

Not necessarily. That certainly was not the case with my family.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know plenty of people who are disturbingly ignorant of religion. And I live in the buckle of the bible belt.

Exactly.

Religion is more than just "something to engage with."

Can be.

 

[sojourner]

Exactly.

IOW: it certainly is possible to grow up in this society without knowing about religion, even if they aren't immersed in it at home.

Can be.

But you can't make that as a general assumption about the depth of all religious experience and use that as a rule of thumb.

 

[JoStories]

Well, there have been multiple threads on this before, and though I respect your wishes, I think its a petty argument. It pollutes personal progress? Its a form of child abuse? I mean really dude lol

How many here were born into religious families and ended up atheist?

I found your post unfair, I was born into a family that wanted me to experience as many faiths as they could find for me. That included Christianity, Jewish, Quakerism, Native American spirituality, atheism, and more. Children should learn about all, if possible, religions and have the right to choose or reject whatever they feel is best for them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

IOW: it certainly is possible to grow up in this society without knowing about religion, even if they aren't immersed in it at home.

Sorry - I thought you were referring to the many people who were raised in one particular religion but are ignorant of religion in general.

 

[sojourner]

Sorry - I thought you were referring to the many people who were raised in one particular religion but are ignorant of religion in general.

No. I should have been clearer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am sure that this has been brought up already, but, being old, I don't recall. But what about children who label themselves a certain religion? I am speaking of children age 8 and older, of course. Can a, say, 9 or a 10 year old make that decision? I know that I would have been able to make that decision, if I had been exposed to religions at that age (I wasn't, really, outside of going to one or two services with friends).
What do you think?

I don't see why parents can't help their kids explore the religion they're interested in. Plenty of non-soccer-playing parents haul their kids around to practice. Of course, there are concerns about safety and well-being of the child when it comes to religion that wouldn't apply to the typical soccer league.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am sure that this has been brought up already, but, being old, I don't recall. But what about children who label themselves a certain religion? I am speaking of children age 8 and older, of course. Can a, say, 9 or a 10 year old make that decision? I know that I would have been able to make that decision, if I had been exposed to religions at that age (I wasn't, really, outside of going to one or two services with friends).
What do you think?

I would need some idea of how much exposure to religions (and frankly, how healthy an exposure) to have any opinions.

I don't think parents should attempt to hide their beliefs - that is just odd IMO - but I have a passionate rejection of parental indoctrination as well.

Nor do I think it is helpful to attempt to hide the variety of religions and beliefs. As with so many other aspects of reality, we should take care not to overwhelm them, but they must learn to deal with the world, not to be oblivious to it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. I should have been clearer.

Okay.

But when you consider the religious people around you, how many of them have a good understanding of other religions? Heck... forget understanding; how many are tolerant of other religions?

Think of your neighbours with "Christian families", who raised their kids in some sort of church. If one of their teenage kids came home and said "I want to be Buddhist" or "I'm thinking about Islam", how would that go?

 

[sojourner]

Okay.

But when you consider the religious people around you, how many of them have a good understanding of other religions? Heck... forget understanding; how many are tolerant of other religions?

Think of your neighbours with "Christian families", who raised their kids in some sort of church. If one of their teenage kids came home and said "I want to be Buddhist" or "I'm thinking about Islam", how would that go?

"How many" =/= "all." I know plenty -- plenty -- of people who are gracious, knowledgeable, open, tolerant, and welcoming where religion -- and non-religion -- are concerned. You're acting as if "religious family" = "intolerant, overbearing, narrow-minded a-holes." Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes people get killed in cars. Shall we ban all cars, even though not all cars = death? One can be religious, rear one's child in one's religion, and still offer that child a choice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"How many" =/= "all." I know plenty -- plenty -- of people who are gracious, knowledgeable, open, tolerant, and welcoming where religion -- and non-religion -- are concerned. You're acting as if "religious family" = "intolerant, overbearing, narrow-minded a-holes." Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't.

Actually, I'm acting as if religious upbringing covers a spectrum, and that the negative end of that spectrum is more significant than suggested by your descriptions of a religious upbringing.

Sometimes people get killed in cars. Shall we ban all cars, even though not all cars = death?

"The vast majority of drunk drivers don't hit anyone. Should we ban drunk driving over the actions of a few?"

One can be religious, rear one's child in one's religion, and still offer that child a choice.

Lots of things CAN happen. Children CAN be brought up in wonderful or horrible environments - religious or irreligious. On this issue, I'm more interested in the overall trend: on average, do you think that a religious upbringing helps or hurts a child's ability to choose a path for themselves later in life? Do you think it helps or hurts the child's intellectual and emotional well-being? I say it hurts more often than it helps.

We hear much more often about the harm of a religious upbringing than the harm of an irreligious one. When metis touched on the negative consequences of his cousin being raised without religion, the "harm" he described was the fact that his cousin wasn't as informed about religion as he might not have been... IOW, the sort of "harm" that's unavoidable in parenting: no parent knows everything or does everything, so there will always be areas where the child will end up having to go elsewhere to fill the gap between what the child wants to know and what the parents were able to teach.

OTOH, when we look at the sort of harm that can be done by religious upbringing, we often see serious psychological harm:

Religious Trauma Syndrome

Even relatively mainstream religions can have nasty, long-lasting consequences. I've never heard of anyone dealing with decades of nightmares and phobias from being raised without religion. I hear about it frequently from people who were raised religiously... and not in wacky fringe groups or cults, but normal, mainstream denominations.