• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Labeling children as a member of a particular religion is immoral

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Not only are younger children not developed enough to understand sophisticated theological concepts, but they aren't even aware of them.
That's not necessary in order to be included. Children aren't developed enough to understand nutrition, yet they are fully included at the dinner table...
They aren't capable of even understanding the various references and language used in the bible ro Qur'an or whatever.
So? Again: Not necessary. The bible's a difficult document. Many adults aren't capable of understanding it. the first Xtians didn't even have one. So... not necessary.
The parents are imposing their beliefs, which they cannot possibly know are true
Again: So what? The parents impose all kinds of things on their kids that they can't "prove." Half the stuff that's routinely taught in school is wrong. yet, it's considered neglect to keep a child out of school.
Its a form of intensive indoctrination--the child has no choice but to be exposed, day in and out, to whatever ridiculous beliefs the parents "KNOW" are true.
No it isn't. Most of the time, parents don't "indoctrinate" their children. Indoctrination includes intimidation and punishment.
Parents shouldn't be indoctrinating their children with any superfluous and unnecessary beliefs that have no evidence and stiffle curiosity and creative thinking--if a child knows God is the truth because his/her parents indoctrinated him/her, then it likely prevents the child from think about alternative explanations.
Didn't stop me.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is a difference between "include" and "push". Teaching your kids about your faith is always a good idea, but it is crucial that they understand that it is based on faith and is not certain or fact. Allowing your children to have an open mind requires that you put your own faith in perspective for them. Don't just teach them about your faith, but encourage them to reach out and learn about alternative faiths. Teach them to question everything. Then, there is absolutely no harm.

Do you agree?
Of course. Religion should be enlightening and enriching, not stifling and ensconcing.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Interesting way to free yourself from bading your opinion on evidence.

Do you know who else is asymptomatic? Healthy people.


A kind of rudimentary animism, usually.

Unless a child is an Episcopalian, Sunni, Theravada Buddhist, Reform Jew, etc., from birth, someome who ends up as an Episcopalian/Sunni/etc. has made a transition from being not Episcopalian/Sunni/etc. to Episcopalian/Sunni/etc. This transition is called conversion.


How does being raised in, say, the Southern Baptist Church (just to pull a popular option out of the air) provide a foundation or make it easier to grow spiritually?

Please make sure that whatever answer you give is in keeping with the perspective described in this article:

SBC leader: Baptists, don’t let your babies grow up to be Catholics

This is one real-world - and I'd argue common - example of being raised in a religion. Please tell us how the general principles you described are expressed in this specific case.

(Note: I didn't pick this article to be difficult - it was just the first thing that popped up in a Google search for "growing up Southern Baptist" that wasn't a book that we'd have to buy to read)
Why land on the SBC as "normative" Christianity? That particular body has become extreme and cultish in the past 25 years.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Of course. Religion should be enlightening and enriching, not stifling and ensconcing.
Right, but will you teach them your religion as if it is the truth or merely your personal belief that it is the truth? In other words, will you encourage or inhibit their open mind?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why land on the SBC as "normative" Christianity?
It isn't the be-all and end-all of Christianity, but it makes up a significant part, especially in the US.

That particular body has become extreme and cultish in the past 25 years.
One in four Americans is an Evangelical Christian. If your generalities about a religious upbringing don't apply to the largest Evangelical denomination, are they really about religious upbringing in general?

Edit: this is all beside the point anyhow. You argued in favour of religious upbringing generally, not "religious upbringings that sojourner doesn't consider extreme and cultish." I don't expect you to defend, say, child sacrifice, but I do expect any statements about religious upbringing generally to apply to any relatively common religion or denomination a kid might be brought up in.
 
Last edited:

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It isn't the be-all and end-all of Christianity, but it makes up a significant part, especially in the US.
I don't think I'd call it "significant." Not in the way of illustrating normative Xy. There are places in the US that have never witnessed a Southern Baptist church.
One in four Americans is an Evangelical Christian. If your generalities about a religious upbringing don't apply to the largest Evangelical denomination, are they really about religious upbringing in general?
Not all Southern Baptists are draconian in the way the article suggests. Not all SBs would agree with the article. You're engaging in hyperbole in order to make it sound as if all Christians (or even a significant portion of them) indoctrinate their children. That's simply not the case.
I do expect any statements about religious upbringing generally to apply to any relatively common religion or denomination a kid might be brought up in.
Many, many SBs aren't draconian in the upbringing of their children. The SBC represents a range of outlook -- not a single, unified stance.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I find that calling a child catholic,or muslim, or hindu, etc, is completely unethical and unfair to the child's development. It inhibits personal advancement and thoughtfulness because its a limitation that is imposed on them--a metaphorical ball and chain. Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have argued, which I agree with, that you wouldn't call a child a republican, or a democrat, or any other political position because a child isn't old enough to understand the complex issues behind various stance--there is nothing more complicated than the nature of reality, which makes religious labeling even more disgusting.

The reasons why religions like this is obvious--its a form of early prostelization that sticks with a child more easily because their families and communities which they grew up with are peer pressuring them to conform to their societal standards. Children are also more susceptible to suggestions. However, it completely demolishes the chance for most children to have an unpolluted period of personal progress where they can individually learn about what beliefs they find most appealing. Religious families inherently tarnish this fundamentally important process.

In an ideal world I would like there to be laws prohibiting the prostelization until they are capable of making more sophisticated judgments. In conclusion parents are doing a disservice to their children by demanding that they stick to the family household religion . It really is a form of child abuse since it obliterates the potential for a child to learn for themselves, instead of being force fed a bunch of garbage created by iron age peasants.


I was raised a Catholic, and while I now disagree with some things about Catholicism, the overall experience was very positive.

No human can teach their children the whole truth, because they do not know it themselves. Every human will teach their children error.
Whether you call it religion or something else, children should be taught right from wrong.
Leaving children to think for themselves completely would be neglect.
Parents have a responsibility to teach what is true as much as they are able.

The Ten Commandments are the best basis for house rules possible. Some may disagree, but that's their business.

Even if people do not believe in God, the latter commandments are such that they should be universally accepted -and most people do teach similar things regardless of beliefs.

Requiring that one specific religion be observed as long as a child is part of a household is not inherently wrong as long as the requirements are reasonable.
Children will have to respect the beliefs of others -and respect authority -the rest of their lives. It is actually good practice.

They will eventually make up their own minds -and many people, religious or otherwise, react to this in unhealthy ways.

Things can go wrong, but no more so than in any other sort of household.

All will eventually make their own decisions, and should be encouraged to do so.
If one has good reason to hope their child eventually accepts a particular religion, they should make a good case for it.

Any good lesson a child is taught might take time to be fully realized -and are often realized only after becoming independent and choosing otherwise.

However, independence should be proportional to capability.

The child may eventually make a different decision, but should still respect house rules -which include respecting the beliefs of the householders even if one does not agree.

Some handle a child's decision to do things differently the wrong way -and some parents are encouraged to handle things the wrong way by unsavory characters while children are encouraged to rebel by the same or similar unsavory characters.

Unfortunately, it's a very evil world.

I was part of an excellent religious group which was subject to manipulation by external forces which made it seem like something other than what it was -and even split families apart -making family members believe falsehoods about other family members -causing people to err with bad information -falsifying communications, etc.....

I'd worry about the children who grow up in households that teach them to do such things -but they teach other peoples' children to do such, also.
 
Last edited:

serp777

Well-Known Member
That's not necessary in order to be included. Children aren't developed enough to understand nutrition, yet they are fully included at the dinner table...

So? Again: Not necessary. The bible's a difficult document. Many adults aren't capable of understanding it. the first Xtians didn't even have one. So... not necessary.

Again: So what? The parents impose all kinds of things on their kids that they can't "prove." Half the stuff that's routinely taught in school is wrong. yet, it's considered neglect to keep a child out of school.

No it isn't. Most of the time, parents don't "indoctrinate" their children. Indoctrination includes intimidation and punishment.

Didn't stop me.

Children aren't developed enough to understand nutrition, yet they are fully included at the dinner table
False analogy. Children need to have a sufficient diet to live while religion, on the other hand, is superfluous and unimportant to a child's successful development (since families without religion do just fine). And furtermore, nutrition is based on scientific principles, studies, and empiracal data while religion is based on nothing of the sort. The analogy is simply inadequate. You shouldn't compare something that isn't useful at all in life with something that is essential. its a bad argument.

I've seen the same bad argument here multiple times-- that parents teach their kids a variety of things, and therefore they should teach their children mostly about their own religion. But society constantly controls families and tells them what they can and cannot teach, either culturally or legally; parents could not teach their children, for instance, a religion which demanded murder, rape, and purgery in the eyes of the celestial taco. So you're just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand saying that some religious indoctrination is ok, while other kinds of religious indoctrination wouldn't. Another example--Im sure you wouldn't agree that it would be acceptable for parents to bring their child to a "hellhouse" everyday, and told that if they misbehave and don't do what they're told they'll suffer the most awful miserable eternity of pain possible. So my question is what arbitrary criteria do you use to say that some religious indoctrination is ok while others isn't? my stance is that all religious indoctrination is bad and children should ideally get a balanced exposure to all religious and then allowed to make up their own minds. Im not saying this is currently feasible, just that it would be ideal.

The better analogy is with politics though; parents don't go around saying--"oh, my 4 year old believes in efficacy of a minimalist government and the importance of states' rights." This would be equivalently ridiculous as saying "my 4 year old believes that Allah is the one true God and Mohammad is his perfect messenger", or in other words "my 4 year old is a muslim"

Not necessary. The bible's a difficult document. Many adults aren't capable of understanding it.
All this does is confirm the fact that many adult believers have a shaky foundation and depend on word of mouth, or influence from their community/ local minister. This means that adults are probably teaching their children a religion which they themselves do not even have sufficient knowledge of. It makes it even more questionable. Just because some adults don't understand it doesn't mean children should be indoctrinated with religion though. Those points are disconnected. Regardless, Im assuming that you won't ask why its wrong to teach children blatantly wrong information; this is actually the reason why evolution in the US has had so many setbacks.

No it isn't. Most of the time, parents don't "indoctrinate" their children. Indoctrination includes intimidation and punishment.
That's not true whatsoever. You have a very limited definition here. Although indoctrination could be implemented through intimidation and punishment, it could also be implemented by subjecting the child to years of religious proselytization, religious ceremonies, and the big assortment of religious gatherings and holidays. In many cases, religious belief is enforced through family shaming for questioning doctrine, mild punishment for not attending religious events( no xbox or somethings), and other minor forms of incentives/punishments. The more extreme case is that some parents warn the child of the possibility of burning in hell for not conforming sufficiently.

Simply put: "Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology.' Exposing the already susceptible child to years and years of religious propaganda and beliefs can certainly be classified as indoctrination--after all, the goal is necessarily to get the child to follow the same religion as the parents. The goal of parents should be to give as unbiased as possible exposure to the widest variety of religions so that when the children are old enough they can make their own decision. That would be a potent learning experience.

Didn't stop me.
Hence the word likely. Your single data point is not going to disprove that statement. Its a well known fact that people tend to adopt the religion of their families across the world. You probably would have been even better off if your parents had exposed you equally to various religions and viewpoints as part of general education.i know I would have been better off, although my one data point is that substantial. Focusing on one particular religion that is a waste when you could be gaining more knowledge about all the other religions from which to make a better informed decision when you feel the time is right.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Children need to have a sufficient diet to live while religion, on the other hand, is superfluous and unimportant to a child's successful development (since families without religion do just fine).
I don't believe that they really do "just fine." I believe that they're slowly dying inside. And you can't prove that they're not.
You shouldn't compare something that isn't useful at all in life with something that is essential.
Spirituality is highly "useful." And you can't prove that it's not.
So you're just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand saying that some religious indoctrination is ok, while other kinds of religious indoctrination wouldn't.
No, I'm saying that not all religious upbringing is "indoctrination."
So my question is what arbitrary criteria do you use to say that some religious indoctrination is ok while others isn't?
Indoctrination is never acceptable.
my stance is that all religious indoctrination is bad
Mine, too. Again: not all religious upbringing entails indoctrination.
children should ideally get a balanced exposure to all religious and then allowed to make up their own minds.
"Exposure" isn't what we're after. "Immersion" is what we're after.
"my 4 year old believes that Allah is the one true God and Mohammad is his perfect messenger", or in other words "my 4 year old is a muslim"
I'm not convinced that any 4-year-old should be taught that. I wasn't taught that at age 4. Or ever, for that matter -- yet I had a deeply religious upbringing. Being immersed in a religion doesn't necessitate cramming doctrine into one's head.
All this does is confirm the fact that many adult believers have a shaky foundation and depend on word of mouth, or influence from their community/ local minister.
Huh. the church has always relied on word of mouth, because the church's faith is predicated upon community and relationship -- not upon a book.
Simply put: "Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology.'
Simply put, indoctrination does these things through dehumanizing tactics, such as intimidation, threats, and shame. Not all religious upbringing does this. No religious upbringing needs to do this, or should do this.
That's not true whatsoever.
Yes. It is.
You have a very limited definition here.
"Precise" =/= "limited."
it could also be implemented by subjecting the child to years of religious proselytization, religious ceremonies, and the big assortment of religious gatherings and holidays.
No. It couldn't -- and your saying so doesn't make it so.
The goal of parents should be to give as unbiased as possible exposure to the widest variety of religions so that when the children are old enough they can make their own decision. That would be a potent learning experience.
Except a religious upbringing isn't a "learning experience." It's a "life experience."
Your single data point is not going to disprove that statement.
It's much more than a "single data point."
Its a well known fact that people tend to adopt the religion of their families across the world.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. No more so than the well-known fact that people tend to remain citizens of the nation they're born into.
You probably would have been even better off if your parents had exposed you equally to various religions and viewpoints as part of general education.
Who says they didn't? But, as I've already pointed out, education isn't the point of religious experience. Living is the point of religious experience.
Focusing on one particular religion that is a waste when you could be gaining more knowledge about all the other religions from which to make a better informed decision when you feel the time is right.
Religion isn't about "gaining knowledge." Focusing on one particular religion isn't a "waste." It's a way of utilizing a particular mythic vehicle as a means of bringing a particular meaning to one's life.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Not all Southern Baptists are draconian in the way the article suggests. Not all SBs would agree with the article. You're engaging in hyperbole in order to make it sound as if all Christians (or even a significant portion of them) indoctrinate their children. That's simply not the case.

A significant portion of Christians does indeed indoctrinate their children. That is a major part of the reason why this thread exists.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
A significant portion of Christians does indeed indoctrinate their children. That is a major part of the reason why this thread exists.
The major reason this thread exists is because lots of people either mistakenly or willfully misunderstand what's going on when parents include their children in religion.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't think I'd call it "significant." Not in the way of illustrating normative Xy. There are places in the US that have never witnessed a Southern Baptist church.
So your praise of a religious upbringing doesn't apply to the world's largest Protestant denomination. Strange. What other religious groups doesn't it apply to?

I have a feeling that it might be quicker for you to list the ones that it does apply to.

Not all Southern Baptists are draconian in the way the article suggests. Not all SBs would agree with the article.

You're engaging in hyperbole in order to make it sound as if all Christians (or even a significant portion of them) indoctrinate their children. That's simply not the case.
I'm acknowledging that if something is true in general, it's true for specific cases within that general case. You praised "religious upbringing" in general. Unless you're going to qualify what you meant by "religious", any religion is fair game.

I've never said that the Southern Baptists - or any other particular group - represent the entirety of Christianity; I've said repeatedly that they don't. What I have said is that they're a non-negligible part of the spectrum of religious upbringing, and any statement about religious upbringing that doesn't take them into accounthas serious problems.

Many, many SBs aren't draconian in the upbringing of their children. The SBC represents a range of outlook -- not a single, unified stance.
Of course, but since you praised the entire range, you ought to be able to speak to any part of that range

... but if you didn't mean to argue for "draconian" upbringings, maybe you could tell how you distinguish between religious upbringings that are and aren't "draconian". Can you give us some examples of religious upbringings you find "draconian"?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't believe that they really do "just fine." I believe that they're slowly dying inside. And you can't prove that they're not.
I'm not sure which is more disgusting: the prejudice in this statement or the way you've tried to exempt yourself for any justification whatsoever for your prejudice.

Spirituality is highly "useful." And you can't prove that it's not.
The first step would be defining what "spirituality" is. There are lots of definitions floating around that range from vague to false.

No, I'm saying that not all religious upbringing is "indoctrination."

Indoctrination is never acceptable.
One test for indoctrination: if the parents say that our child has a religion or is being brought up to be a member of a religion, some degree of indoctrination is happening.

Anyhow... to tally the score so far, you've said that your praise of religious upbringing doesn't apply to:

- "draconian" religious upbringings
- religious "indoctrination"

Are there any other exceptions?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The major reason this thread exists is because lots of people either mistakenly or willfully misunderstand what's going on when parents include their children in religion.
So... these things didn't happen?

- religious school boards consider the question of whether preventing cancer is a good thing a "moral dillema":
New Catholic school board chair calls HPV vaccines "moral issue” | Toronto Star

- religious parents object to Ontario's new sex ed curriculum, including provisions designed to protect kids online and reduce LGBT suicides:
Kathleen Wynne rejects parents’ plea to withdraw sex-ed curriculum | Toronto Star

- Ontario Catholic bishops oppose gay-straight alliances in Catholic schools:
Toronto archbishop opposes gay-straight alliance bill - Toronto - CBC News
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
A significant portion of Christians does indeed indoctrinate their children. That is a major part of the reason why this thread exists.
But doncha think that "indoctrination" can be found with practitioners of all religions, including Buddhism? All parents, I do believe, "indoctrinate" their children one way or another, including with secular values.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
But doncha think that "indoctrination" can be found with practitioners of all religions, including Buddhism?
"Indoctrination" just means "imparting doctrine". Any belief system with doctrine has indoctrination.

All parents, I do believe, "indoctrinate" their children one way or another, including with secular values.
Exactly what doctrine do you think is in "secular values"? Are you just talking about "don't touch the stove"-type instruction?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Indoctrination" just means "imparting doctrine". Any belief system with doctrine has indoctrination.


Exactly what doctrine do you think is in "secular values"? Are you just talking about "don't touch the stove"-type instruction?
If I tell my son or daughter not to beat up other kids, is that not "indoctrination"?
 
Top