LDS, JW, SDA, other?

[rad_ic_ul]

read this extract and tell me if you agree or disagree.

Identifying Marks of Those Having God’s Backing​

7 They base their teachings on the Bible. Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." And also: "He that is from God listens to the sayings of God." (John 7:16, 17; 8:47) Logically, to enjoy God’s backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition.—Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:3-9; Colossians 2:8.
8 They use and publicize God’s name, Jehovah. Isaiah foretold: "In that day you will certainly say: ‘Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the peoples his dealings. Make mention that his name is put on high. Make melody to Jehovah, for he has done surpassingly. This is made known in all the earth.’" (Isaiah 12:4, 5) Jesus taught his followers to pray: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) Therefore, whether Jew or non-Jew, Christians were to serve as "a people for [God’s] name." (Acts 15:14) God is obviously pleased to back those who are proud to be "a people for his name."
9 They reflect God’s joyful personality. As author of "good news," Jehovah is "the happy God." (1 Timothy 1:11) So how could his worshipers be unhappy or persistently pessimistic? Despite world distress and personal problems, true Christians maintain a joyful spirit because they regularly feast on rich spiritual food. Isaiah contrasts them with those practicing false religion: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: ‘Look! My own servants will eat, but you yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but you yourselves will suffer shame. Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but you yourselves will make outcries because of the pain of heart and you will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit.’"—Isaiah 65:13, 14.
10 They base their conduct and their decisions on Bible principles. "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding," the writer of Proverbs advises us, "in all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5, 6) God backs those who look to him for direction rather than to the contradictory theories of humans who ignore godly wisdom. To the extent that a person is willing to pattern his life after God’s Word, he will avoid having to learn by trial and error.—Psalm 119:33; 1 Corinthians 1:19-21.
11 They are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation. Jesus set out the principle: "Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:8-11) A congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity. (Job 32:21, 22) Those shepherding the flock of God are told to do so "not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:2, 3) Genuine Christian shepherds refrain from trying to make themselves masters over the faith of others. As fellow workers in God’s service, they simply strive to set a fine example.—2 Corinthians 1:24.
12 They are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutral. He who fails to be "in subjection to the superior authorities" cannot expect to have God’s backing. Why? Because "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God." (Romans 13:1, 2) However, Jesus recognized the possibility of a conflict of interests when he said: "Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God." (Mark 12:17) Those desiring to have God’s backing must "keep on . . . seeking first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness," while at the same time obeying the laws of the land that are compatible with their higher responsibilities to God. (Matthew 6:33; Acts 5:29) Jesus stressed neutrality when he said of his disciples: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." He later added: "My kingdom is no part of this world."—John 17:16; 18:36.
13 They are impartial in working "what is good toward all." (Galatians 6:10) Christian love knows no partiality, accepting all people regardless of their skin color, economic or educational status, nationality, or language. The working of what is good toward all and especially toward those related to them in the faith helps to identify those having God’s backing. Jesus said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."—John 13:35; Acts 10:34, 35.​

14 They are willing to suffer persecution for doing God’s will. Jesus forewarned his followers: "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." (John 15:20; Matthew 5:11, 12; 2 Timothy 3:12) Those having God’s backing have always been unpopular, as was Noah, who condemned the world through his faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Today, those desiring God’s backing dare not water down God’s word or compromise godly principles so as to avoid persecution. As long as they faithfully serve God, they know that people will be "puzzled and go on speaking abusively" of them.—1 Peter 2:12; 3:16; 4:4.

 

[rad_ic_ul]

i admire you bold, breave words.
i takes real courage to tell people the true even when they may get angry and don't wan't to hear it.

may jehovah bless you. and your ministry prosper.
we have an organisation like no other. remember always that we stood up against hitler when the churches did not. and that is a true testimony to our bible bast faith.

always be cool in declairting the faith

 

[Quiddity]

Thank you for making me a part of this! :cover:

I don't know about jumping, Victor, but you can send me a PM of your terms and we'll see. I don't know how much of a debate I can honestly offer yet, seeing as I take a grat deal of the apostasy issue on faith.

Thanks, that pretty much settles the issue for me.

 

[lilithu]

THe Gospel of John was written somewhere between 70 A.D and 90 A.D. Approximating the date at 90 years, I concluded the Gospel was written at most 60 years after the Crucifixion. I meant that the Gospel of John is the only eye wittness testimony, The other Gospels are the accounts given by the eyewittneses of the Ministry of Christ. However John is unique, he was a special disciple who learned things that the others did not.

The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary and Judas are all Gospels written by people long after the death of the supposed authors.

According to Elaine Pagels, the Gospel of John was written IN RESPONSE to the Gospel of Thomas.

 

[doppelganger]

Thanks, that pretty much settles the issue for me.

How so?

 

[doppelganger]

According to Elaine Pagels, the Gospel of John was written IN RESPONSE to the Gospel of Thomas.

Maybe. She considers that a possibility for which she can produce evidence. She alternately considers that it was edited to become a response to the Gospel of Thomas as a possibility as well, if I recall my understanding of what she wrote in Beyond Belief correctly.

 

[Quiddity]

How so?

Because it wouldn't matter if we looked into history.

 

[doppelganger]

Because it wouldn't matter if we looked into history.

Why not? I'm not following you here . . . :help:

 

[lilithu]

Maybe. She considers that a possibility for which she can produce evidence. She alternately considers that it was edited to become a response to the Gospel of Thomas as a possibility as well, if I recall my understanding of what she wrote in Beyond Belief correctly.

When she spoke on it at our Ware Lecture, she gave a compelling argument for it being written in response. Either way, whether written or edited, it calls into question whether the Gospel of John is any more reliable than the others as an eye-witness testimony of what Jesus said.

Just reading it, John is so clearly a later piece, written after someone(s) had had time to work out a complex theology. Even if it were written by the apostle John, which I doubt, it is still not an eye-witness account. It is someone's interpretation of what the Rabbi said.

 

[Quiddity]

Why not? I'm not following you here . . . :help:

Deepshadow says she takes the Apostasy mostly on faith, so anything I provide isn't going to matter if her trust in JS is going to over lap it.

 

[doppelganger]

Deepshadow says she takes the Apostasy mostly on faith, so anything I provide isn't going to matter if her trust in JS is going to over lap it.

So you perceive there's no point to discussing evidence regarding matters taken on faith?

 

[Quiddity]

So you perceive there's no point to discussing evidence regarding matters taken on faith?

Oh I do, I just don't procede if others do not.

 

[doppelganger]

When she spoke on it at our Ware Lecture, she gave a compelling argument for it being written in response.

That's a lecture I would like to have heard.

Either way, whether written or edited, it calls into question whether the Gospel of John is any more reliable than the others as an eye-witness testimony of what Jesus said.

I've can't locate anything I consider to be compelling evidence of an eyewitness account to the life of an historical Jesus.

Just reading it, John is so clearly a later piece, written after someone(s) had had time to work out a complex theology. Even if it were written by the apostle John, which I doubt, it is still not an eye-witness account. It is someone's interpretation of what the Rabbi said.

I agree with much of that assessment. I think it includes a great deal of neo-platonic philosophy and inspiration from the Timaeus, indicating to me its author(s) were sophisticated thinkers fluent in Greek philosophy rather than Aramaic speaking "regular joes." There is some evidence indicating it might have started out as a version of the Jesus parable written by the "gnostic" Cerinthus, and later edited to its current more "orthodox" form.

 

[may]

6951(strongs hebrew) qahal/assembly
1577(strongs greek) church/assembly
Anyone who believes in the God of Abraham/Issac/Jaccob and is looking to the coming of the Messiah (Jn.5:24) is in the assembly/church.
Before the coming of Yeshua one had to be a convert to the Qahal of the Children of Israel. Israel was blinded in part so as to open the assembly up to the Nations.(
Ro 11:25) Today is coming up to the end or fulness of the Gentiles/Nations and the return of the Messiah, to the Hebrew the first time to the converted believer the second coming. The first converted believers were called the Way(
Ac 9:2).
The rest is twisted by each and every Denomination who thinks it is the "Church" Yeshua built upon Peter!

the end of the appointed times of the nations, or the end of the Gentile times ended in 1914 , and then right on time inline with bible prophecy and chronology Jesus started his kingship . there was no king on Jehovahs throne to represent him for ages , but at that time Jesus took up his kingship . this is all happening in the heavenly kingdom that was set up and established in the heavens in 1914 Daniel 2;44, notice that this kingdom was set up in the days of those kings ,or in other words while other kingdoms were still ruling. yes Jesus has already took up his kingship , and he is the one with the legal right to it .
(Ezekiel 21:26, 27) yes it is all happening in this time of the end , the end of manmade rulerships is just around the corner.Jesus has come into kingdom power , and we are living in the PRESENCE of Jesus kingly power and have been since 1914 , yes 1914 was the start of the last days, or in other words the start of the end for manmade rulerships.

 

[may]

Peter means "a stone or rock." Peter's actual name, Cephas means " a stone." Jesus testified that upon Peter he would build his Church.

quote]
What readily becomes apparent is this: the rock on which Christ built his church is not the same original Greek word that Jesus used when he referred to Peter. Petros, the name Jesus gave Peter, is in the masculine gender and means a movable stone, a piece of rock; but petra, the rock on which the church is built, is in the feminine gender and means a "rock-mass." If Jesus had meant for Peter to be the head of his church he would have said the obvious: "You are Petros and on this Petros I will build my church.’ But Jesus never said that! Nor did he say: "You, Peter, will build my church." Rather, Jesus said: "I will build my church." Who, then, is this petra, the "rock-mass," upon which Christ builds his church?
To understand what Jesus meant it is well to examine, with the benefit of an accurate, modern translation of the Bible, Jesus’ words and their context. One day, while Jesus and his apostles were in the neighborhood of Caesarea Philippi, he asked them: "Who are men saying the Son of man is?" The various answers people gave were wrong. So Jesus asked his apostles: "You, though, who do you say I am?" Simon Peter was quick with an answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." To this Jesus replied: "I say to you, You are Peter [Petros, ‘a stone,’ in the masculine gender], and on this rock-mass [Greek, petra, ‘a rock-mass,’ in the feminine gender] I will build my congregation."—Matt. 16:13-18, NW. so Jesus is the rock-mass

 

[Sonic247]

To be honest I'm shocked that none of the other restorationist believe the priesthood is important. It seems clear to me from both the OT and NT that priesthood authority is one of the critical elements of Christ's church and God's covenant people. As you well know Peter and the apostles received the keys of the kingdom, clearly in reference to governing prieshood authority. Christ and the apostles called men to various specific offices of authority because the priesthood is an integral part of the ministering within Christ's church.

I don't think that a person can become a priest through any church or instatution, I think we become priest when we are saved, the priest offered sacrifices in the temple and we offer our lives as a living sacrifice. But we don't have any part in the Aarons priesthood which is only for the Levites, not for any other tribe and certainly not for us (unless any of you are Jewish) gentiles.

 

[may]

read this extract and tell me if you agree or disagree.

Identifying Marks of Those Having God’s Backing​

7 They base their teachings on the Bible. Jesus said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality." And also: "He that is from God listens to the sayings of God." (John 7:16, 17; 8:47) Logically, to enjoy God’s backing, one must teach only what God reveals in his Word and reject teachings based on human wisdom or tradition.—Isaiah 29:13; Matthew 15:3-9; Colossians 2:8.
8 They use and publicize God’s name, Jehovah. Isaiah foretold: "In that day you will certainly say: ‘Give thanks to Jehovah, you people! Call upon his name. Make known among the peoples his dealings. Make mention that his name is put on high. Make melody to Jehovah, for he has done surpassingly. This is made known in all the earth.’" (Isaiah 12:4, 5) Jesus taught his followers to pray: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified." (Matthew 6:9) Therefore, whether Jew or non-Jew, Christians were to serve as "a people for [God’s] name." (Acts 15:14) God is obviously pleased to back those who are proud to be "a people for his name."
9 They reflect God’s joyful personality. As author of "good news," Jehovah is "the happy God." (1 Timothy 1:11) So how could his worshipers be unhappy or persistently pessimistic? Despite world distress and personal problems, true Christians maintain a joyful spirit because they regularly feast on rich spiritual food. Isaiah contrasts them with those practicing false religion: "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: ‘Look! My own servants will eat, but you yourselves will go hungry. Look! My own servants will drink, but you yourselves will go thirsty. Look! My own servants will rejoice, but you yourselves will suffer shame. Look! My own servants will cry out joyfully because of the good condition of the heart, but you yourselves will make outcries because of the pain of heart and you will howl because of sheer breakdown of spirit.’"—Isaiah 65:13, 14.
10 They base their conduct and their decisions on Bible principles. "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding," the writer of Proverbs advises us, "in all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5, 6) God backs those who look to him for direction rather than to the contradictory theories of humans who ignore godly wisdom. To the extent that a person is willing to pattern his life after God’s Word, he will avoid having to learn by trial and error.—Psalm 119:33; 1 Corinthians 1:19-21.
11 They are organized in the manner of the first-century Christian congregation. Jesus set out the principle: "Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister." (Matthew 23:8-11) A congregation of brothers precludes having a proud clergy class that honors itself with high-sounding titles and elevates itself above a laity. (Job 32:21, 22) Those shepherding the flock of God are told to do so "not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:2, 3) Genuine Christian shepherds refrain from trying to make themselves masters over the faith of others. As fellow workers in God’s service, they simply strive to set a fine example.—2 Corinthians 1:24.
12 They are submissive to human governments and yet remain neutral. He who fails to be "in subjection to the superior authorities" cannot expect to have God’s backing. Why? Because "the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God." (Romans 13:1, 2) However, Jesus recognized the possibility of a conflict of interests when he said: "Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God." (Mark 12:17) Those desiring to have God’s backing must "keep on . . . seeking first the kingdom [of God] and his righteousness," while at the same time obeying the laws of the land that are compatible with their higher responsibilities to God. (Matthew 6:33; Acts 5:29) Jesus stressed neutrality when he said of his disciples: "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world." He later added: "My kingdom is no part of this world."—John 17:16; 18:36.
13 They are impartial in working "what is good toward all." (Galatians 6:10) Christian love knows no partiality, accepting all people regardless of their skin color, economic or educational status, nationality, or language. The working of what is good toward all and especially toward those related to them in the faith helps to identify those having God’s backing. Jesus said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."—John 13:35; Acts 10:34, 35.​

14 They are willing to suffer persecution for doing God’s will. Jesus forewarned his followers: "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also." (John 15:20; Matthew 5:11, 12; 2 Timothy 3:12) Those having God’s backing have always been unpopular, as was Noah, who condemned the world through his faith. (Hebrews 11:7) Today, those desiring God’s backing dare not water down God’s word or compromise godly principles so as to avoid persecution. As long as they faithfully serve God, they know that people will be "puzzled and go on speaking abusively" of them.—1 Peter 2:12; 3:16; 4:4.

that is true knowledge indeed , and it is right inline with the bible , and yes there is a people right inline with the bible. and those who are feeding from the channel that Jesus is feeding , know just who they are matthew 24;45-47

 

[may]

is Jesus using a channel to feed his people ? yes indeed matthew 24;45-47 and those who are feeding from the channel that Jesus is feeding are getting really good spiritual food . they dont need to go looking around for any other food because the provisions that are coming down from the most high are very healthy food indeed Daniel 12;4.
(Luke 12:44) I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings............................... yes this channel that Jesus is giving spiritual food too ,is put in charge of all Jesus belongings. yes they sure do have an abundance of accurate knowledge and understanding about the bible and the revealing goes on ,yes FAITHFULNESS leads to great blessings . i am taking in knowledge and getting lots of good spiritual food from the channel that Jesus is feeding, and yes it is all happening in these the last days................ taste and see that Jehovah is good .
"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?"—MATTHEW 24:45.
When Jesus’ presence began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20)

 

[may]

i admire you bold, breave words.
i takes real courage to tell people the true even when they may get angry and don't wan't to hear it.

may jehovah bless you. and your ministry prosper.
we have an organisation like no other. remember always that we stood up against hitler when the churches did not. and that is a true testimony to our bible bast faith.

always be cool in declairting the faith

And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free, your language sounds rather familiar . tell me are you feeding from the channel that Jesus is feeding matthew 24;45-47?

 

[JayHawes]

Last I checked "are" is present tense. He didn't say "were" built. He didn't say "will be built" because the church presently existed. The church "is" built and must "be" built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets.



Who authoratively declared that apostles and prophets were intended to be a first-century-only foundation? Paul clearly states otherwise.



You failed to read the part that specifically pertains to the issue at hand:

"he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Paul is clearly declaring that the church needs apostles, prophets, etc, active in the work of the ministry UNTIL we all come in the unity of faith unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Are you suggesting that has already occurred? Have we all come to a unity of faith unto a perfect man? Hardly. So clearly then, according to Paul, we need the active ministry of apostles and prophets to keep us from being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

The Work of the Apostles has already past. There are no present Apostles becuase they do not fulfill any of the Apostolic Creiteria. Also Notice that the BIble says that the Apostles have BUILT, built is past tense, it does not say they continue to build any foundation.

I quote the following:

"The movement to restore the offices of apostle and prophet bases the claim that apostles and prophets are to be a part of the church on Ephesians 4:11-12. These verses say, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ."

During the first century of the church, there was an office of apostle and there was a spiritual gift of apostle. The office or position of apostle was held by the 12 disciples of Jesus plus Matthias, who took Judas’ place, and Paul. Those who held the office or position of apostle were chosen specifically by Christ (Mark 3:16-19). The replacement for Judas is seen in Acts 1:20-26. Note in this passage that Judas' position was called an office. It should also be noted that Paul was chosen by Christ (1 Corinthians 15:8-9; Galatians 1:1; 2:6-9). These men were given the task of setting up of the foundation of the church. It should be understood that it was for the universal church that these men were a part of the foundation (Ephesians 2:20). The foundation of the church (universal church) was laid in the first century. This is why the office of apostle is no longer functioning.

There was also a spiritual gift of apostle (This is not to be confused with the office—they are separate). Among those who had the spiritual gift were James (1 Corinthians 15:7; Galatians 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:4, 14; 1 Corinthians 9:6), Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7), possibly Silas and Timothy (1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2:7), and Apollos (1 Corinthians 4:6, 9). This latter group had the gift of apostleship but not the apostolic "office" conferred upon the Twelve and Paul. Those who had the gift of apostle, then, were those who carried the gospel message with God’s authority. The word "apostle" means "one sent as an authoritative delegate." This was true of those who held the office of Apostle (like Paul) and those who had the spiritual gift (like Apollos). Though there are men like this today, men who are sent by God to spread the gospel, it is best NOT to refer to them as apostles because of the confusion this causes since many are not aware of the two different uses of the term apostle.

The gift of prophet was a temporary gift given by the Christ for the laying of the foundation of the universal church. They also were foundational to the universal church (Ephesians 2:20). The prophet proclaimed a message from the Lord for the believers of the first century. These believers did not have the advantage we have of having a complete Bible. The last book of the New Testament (Revelation) was not completed until late in the first century. So the Lord provided gifted men called prophets who proclaimed messages from God to the people until the canon of Scripture was complete.

It should be noted that the current teaching of the restoration of prophet and the office of apostle is far from what Scripture describes of the men who held the gift of prophet and the office of apostle. Those who teach the restoration of the office teach that the men who claim to be apostles and prophets should never be spoken against, should never be questioned, because the person who speaks against them is speaking against God. Yet, the Apostle Paul commended the people of Berea for checking what he said against the Word of God to make sure he spoke the truth (Acts 17:10-11). The Apostle Paul also stated to those in Galatia that if anyone, including himself, should teach another Gospel, that person should be "accursed" (Galatians 1:8-9). In everything, Paul kept pointing people to the Bible as the final authority. The men who claim to be apostles and prophets today make themselves the final authority, something Paul and the Twelve never did.

It should also be noted that Scripture refers to these men in the past tense. In 2 Peter 3:2 and also in Jude 3-4, it states that the people should not stray from the message the apostles gave (past tense). In Hebrews 2:3-4, it also speaks in the past tense of the those who performed (in the past) signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit."