LDS, JW, SDA, other?

[Felix]

There wasn't a church started by Jesus of Nazareth. In theory, Jesus died, resurrected and ascended into heaven. He never said "Okay, let's start a religion."

Historically, Saul (Paul, yes, the Apostle) spread the word of Jesus for forty years until the first Gospel was written. So when you're asking what Church Jesus started, you're asking what Church Saul started.

And I would say "None of the Above." Due to the fact that everything has been edited over time.

 

[JayHawes]

Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. He came to reveal a faith that had long been prophesied of.

Jesus was Jewish, however his followers are known as Christians.

Jesus did start the Church. The Church are those who believe on him. The 11 Apostles, along with Mary and the other Marys were the first to believe on Jesus after his ressurection. Jesus is the head of the Church, which is composed of his followers.

Saul did not start the Church. He is merely the Apostle who preached to the Gentiles (non-Jews). He is responsible for the Gentile Church, however the firs tmembers of the Church were Jews.

 

[rocka21]

There wasn't a church started by Jesus of Nazareth. In theory, Jesus died, resurrected and ascended into heaven. He never said "Okay, let's start a religion."

Historically, Saul (Paul, yes, the Apostle) spread the word of Jesus for forty years until the first Gospel was written. So when you're asking what Church Jesus started, you're asking what Church Saul started.

And I would say "None of the Above." Due to the fact that everything has been edited over time.

upon this rock, i will build my CHURCH .......( jesus).

i think jesus started this whole church thing.

 

[Polaris]

Jesus is the great high priest, and Jesus true followers have been set free in a spiritual way from Babylon the great, and true worship has been retored.
Jesus and the apostles foretold that true worship would be corrupted and lost. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29, 30) After the apostolic age, Christendom arose. Her clergymen adopted pagan teachings and practices. They also made approach to God all but impossible, painting him as an incomprehensible Trinity and teaching people to confess to priests and to pray to Mary and various "saints" instead of to Jehovah. Now, after many centuries of such corruption, what has Jehovah done? In the midst of today’s world—a world that is choked with religious falsehood and befouled with ungodly practices—he has stepped in and restored pure worship! this restoration is one of the most important developments in modern times.

I agree with most of what you've said. I believe the early church did indeed fall into apostasy. However where we differ is in how the "true worship has been restored". In order for the true worship to really be restored would require the ministry of prophets and apostles just as Katzpur quoted earlier:

Ephesians 4:11-14: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ..."

Ephesians 2:19-20 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone..."

The NT makes it quite clear that priesthood authority, specifically that of prophets and apostles, was intended to always be a vital part of Christ's church.

 

[doppelganger]

upon this rock, i will build my CHURCH .......( jesus).

i think jesus started this whole church thing.

Warning: Feedback loop . . .

Unless, that was written after there already was a "Church."

 

[may]

so who is the rock .?
Christ Jesus identified himself as the rock or cornerstone which the builders had rejected, and the apostle Paul bore similar testimony. (Matt. 21:42-46; Rom. 9:32, 33; 1 Cor. 10:4)

 

[Ronald]

6951(strongs hebrew) qahal/assembly
1577(strongs greek) church/assembly
Anyone who believes in the God of Abraham/Issac/Jaccob and is looking to the coming of the Messiah (Jn.5:24) is in the assembly/church.
Before the coming of Yeshua one had to be a convert to the Qahal of the Children of Israel. Israel was blinded in part so as to open the assembly up to the Nations.(
Ro 11:25) Today is coming up to the end or fulness of the Gentiles/Nations and the return of the Messiah, to the Hebrew the first time to the converted believer the second coming. The first converted believers were called the Way(
Ac 9:2).
The rest is twisted by each and every Denomination who thinks it is the "Church" Yeshua built upon Peter!

 

[JayHawes]

I agree with most of what you've said. I believe the early church did indeed fall into apostasy. However where we differ is in how the "true worship has been restored". In order for the true worship to really be restored would require the ministry of prophets and apostles just as Katzpur quoted earlier:

Ephesians 4:11-14: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ..."

Ephesians 2:19-20 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone..."

The NT makes it quite clear that priesthood authority, specifically that of prophets and apostles, was intended to always be a vital part of Christ's church.

Those verses nowhere meation preist or anything about a preisthood. Also notice the pastense of the work of prophets and Apostles. Paul said you " are built upon the foundation of the apotles and prophet." Not that they will be built, not that they are being built upon it but that they are already built upon it.

Yes God did give some Apostles, he gave the first 12 Apostles, including Matthias, and he gave the Apostle Paul unto the Gentiles. THey were given to the first century church to give the foundation. Now that the foundation is laid, there are no more Apostles.

Yes God gave some prophet, however all Prophets of the Bible came baring a Message of the coming of Christ. Every Old Testament Prophet including Moses, and Daivd and Solomon ( in 1-2 Samuel, and 1-2 Chronicles) foretold of Jesus. Now that Jesus is come, the ministry of the prophet is no longer of greatness as before Christ. Yes, i dont doubt that some prophesy, however no Prophet can come baring a "new" revelation. Becuase the foundation and revelation has already been given - so that: "we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine".

 

[JayHawes]

so who is the rock .?
Christ Jesus identified himself as the rock or cornerstone which the builders had rejected, and the apostle Paul bore similar testimony. (Matt. 21:42-46; Rom. 9:32, 33; 1 Cor. 10:4)

Peter means "a stone or rock." Peter's actual name, Cephas means " a stone." Jesus testified that upon Peter he would build his Church.

Mt 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


What did Jesus mean? In the Book of Acts on the day of Pentecos, a mighty wind came into the upper room, and the Apostles were filled with the Holy Ghost and they began to speak in different languages as the Holy Ghost allowed them. This was done so that the Many Jews, who had come from all over the world from various nations, with different languages, could understand the message of Jesus Christ. The People though that the Apostles were drunk, and couldn't believe that Fishermen could do such a thing. In the midst of doubt, guess who stood up.

Ac 2:14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Ac 2:21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ac 2:22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Ac 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Ac 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 2:41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Peter stood up on that day and 3,000 souls were added to the Church. Peter made the first foundation, converting 3,000 Jews to beleive in the promised Messiah. Jesus was fortelling of this event, that by Peter, Jesus would build his Church.

Jesus is the conorstone, he is the foundation of Christanity, and he is the ultimate builder because he is the mediator and the head of every man - even Peter.

 

[lilithu]

yes, I was talking about those guys who hung out with Jesus. Mathew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul... but what about the others?

None of the four gospels were directly written by any of Jesus' disciples.

The twelve disciples as listed in scripture are:

1. Simon Peter
2. Andrew: brother of Peter
3. James and
4. John, brothers
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas (ie - doubting Thomas)
8. James, son of Alphaeus
9. Matthew, the tax collector
10. Simon Zelotes
11. Judas Iscariot
12. The gospel accounts differ but usually listed as Judas, not to be confused with Judas Iscariot, who "betrayed" Jesus.

As you can see, there are no apostles by the name of Mark or Luke. And I don't know if the writers of Matthew and John claim to have been Jesus' apostles but it's doubtful. John was written 80 years after Jesus' death.

 

[JayHawes]

Mark and Luke were companions of Paul who accompanied him on his mission trips (Acts 12:25, 2 TImothy 4:11). Each Gospel was written to a diffrent peoples and for a different purpose. Luke wrote his Gospel to a Gentile, but mainly Greek audience, his Gospel was written some 25 years after the Crucifixion. The Gospel of Mark is a fast packed Gospel, written to give fast but detailed accounts of the ministry of Jesus. The Gospel of Matthew was written with the purpose of being read by the Jews.

The Gospel of John however stands our from the rest of them. Written some 40 to 60 years after the Crucifixion is testimony of John, the only Apostle to live up unto the dawn of the Second Century. The Gospel of John is written in first person and refers to one called "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Jesus had three special disciples. Peter, John and James. All of them are mentioned except John - identifying him as the the Disciple Jesus loved. There is much mroe information to proove the authorship of John.

 

[lilithu]

Mark and Luke were companions of Paul who accompanied him on his mission trips (Acts 12:25, 2 TImothy 4:11). Each Gospel was written to a diffrent peoples and for a different purpose. Luke wrote his Gospel to a Gentile, but mainly Greek audience, his Gospel was written some 25 years after the Crucifixion. The Gospel of Mark is a fast packed Gospel, written to give fast but detailed accounts of the ministry of Jesus. The Gospel of Matthew was written with the purpose of being read by the Jews.

The Gospel of John however stands our from the rest of them. Written some 40 to 60 years after the Crucifixion is testimony of John, the only Apostle to live up unto the dawn of the Second Century. The Gospel of John is written in first person and refers to one called "the disciple whom Jesus loved." Jesus had three special disciples. Peter, John and James. All of them are mentioned except John - identifying him as the the Disciple Jesus loved. There is much mroe information to proove the authorship of John.

So you're saying that out of the four gospels, the one that was written the latest after Jesus' crucifixion is the one that is a true eye-witness testimony? (you say 40-60 years, I still say 80 years - either way that's a good bit after the average lifespan back then)

Fine, then let us also accept the gospels of Thomas, Mary and Judas as true eye-witness testimonies.

 

[rocka21]

So you're saying that out of the four gospels, the one that was written the latest after Jesus' crucifixion is the one that is a true eye-witness testimony? (you say 40-60 years, I still say 80 years - either way that's a good bit after the average lifespan back then)

Fine, then let us also accept the gospels of Thomas, Mary and Judas as true eye-witness testimonies.

every tread ends up with " who wrote the king james bible",:faint: .

i mean EVERY THREAD!

i would be a whole lot easier to just start here, because this is where we end up.

 

[JayHawes]

So you're saying that out of the four gospels, the one that was written the latest after Jesus' crucifixion is the one that is a true eye-witness testimony? (you say 40-60 years, I still say 80 years - either way that's a good bit after the average lifespan back then)

Fine, then let us also accept the gospels of Thomas, Mary and Judas as true eye-witness testimonies.

THe Gospel of John was written somewhere between 70 A.D and 90 A.D. Approximating the date at 90 years, I concluded the Gospel was written at most 60 years after the Crucifixion. I meant that the Gospel of John is the only eye wittness testimony, The other Gospels are the accounts given by the eyewittneses of the Ministry of Christ. However John is unique, he was a special disciple who learned things that the others did not.

The Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary and Judas are all Gospels written by people long after the death of the supposed authors.

 

[lilithu]

every tread ends up with " who wrote the king james bible",:faint: .

i mean EVERY THREAD!

Um... maybe you only read the threads that have to do with the bible? Just a thought.

 

[Katzpur]

so who is the rock .?
Christ Jesus identified himself as the rock or cornerstone which the builders had rejected, and the apostle Paul bore similar testimony. (Matt. 21:42-46; Rom. 9:32, 33; 1 Cor. 10:4)

I don't believe Jesus is the "rock" He was referring to in Matthew 16:15-18.

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Of all the Apostles, Peter alone recognized that Jesus was "the Christ, the Son of the living God." It was through our Father in Heaven that he was given this witness, and not through earthly knowledge (i.e. flesh and blood). It was, in other words, revealed to him. The only way anyone can come to know the truth about Christ and His teachings is through personal revelation. It was, therefore, upon that principle -- the rock of revelation -- that He would build His Church.

Elsewhere, Jesus identified himself as the "cornerstone" of His Church, and the Prophets and Apostles as the "foundation." True apostolic leadership is as necessary a part of Christ's Church today as it was when He established it. Furthermore, it is impossible to have apostolic succession without Apostles. Bishops are not Apostles, nor are Cardinals or Popes. An Apostle was a specific calling and the keys of the apostleship were given solely to the Apostles.

 

[Quiddity]

Bishops are not Apostles, nor are Cardinals or Popes. An Apostle was a specific calling and the keys of the apostleship were given solely to the Apostles.

I'm tempted to finally do a one on one with you Katz...
I just can't see outside of LDS interpretation how this has any basis on history. We shall see. You up to it?

 

[Polaris]

Those verses nowhere meation preist or anything about a preisthood. Also notice the pastense of the work of prophets and Apostles. Paul said you " are built upon the foundation of the apotles and prophet." Not that they will be built, not that they are being built upon it but that they are already built upon it.

Last I checked "are" is present tense. He didn't say "were" built. He didn't say "will be built" because the church presently existed. The church "is" built and must "be" built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets.

Yes God did give some Apostles, he gave the first 12 Apostles, including Matthias, and he gave the Apostle Paul unto the Gentiles. THey were given to the first century church to give the foundation. Now that the foundation is laid, there are no more Apostles.

Who authoratively declared that apostles and prophets were intended to be a first-century-only foundation? Paul clearly states otherwise.

Yes God gave some prophet, however all Prophets of the Bible came baring a Message of the coming of Christ. Every Old Testament Prophet including Moses, and Daivd and Solomon ( in 1-2 Samuel, and 1-2 Chronicles) foretold of Jesus. Now that Jesus is come, the ministry of the prophet is no longer of greatness as before Christ. Yes, i dont doubt that some prophesy, however no Prophet can come baring a "new" revelation. Becuase the foundation and revelation has already been given - so that: "we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine".

You failed to read the part that specifically pertains to the issue at hand:

"he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

Paul is clearly declaring that the church needs apostles, prophets, etc, active in the work of the ministry UNTIL we all come in the unity of faith unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Are you suggesting that has already occurred? Have we all come to a unity of faith unto a perfect man? Hardly. So clearly then, according to Paul, we need the active ministry of apostles and prophets to keep us from being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm tempted to finally do a one on one with you Katz...
I just can't see outside of LDS interpretation how this has any basis on history. We shall see. You up to it?

Actually, I'm not up to it right now, Victor. One of my dogs is very sick and neither my energy level nor my enthusiasm for a one-on-one right now would permit me to do justice to the LDS position. I'd be willing to bet that either DeepShadow or Polaris would jump at the chance, though. Otherwise, we can wait until my life gets a little less stressful.

 

[DeepShadow]

I'd be willing to bet that either DeepShadow or Polaris would jump at the chance, though.

Thank you for making me a part of this! :cover:

I don't know about jumping, Victor, but you can send me a PM of your terms and we'll see. I don't know how much of a debate I can honestly offer yet, seeing as I take a grat deal of the apostasy issue on faith.

PM me your terms, if you wish.