LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Duck]

Why not just give benefits in percentiles so it adds up to the same amount? Poly-groups would receive the same benefits as couples so there's no incentive to marry poly just for benefits, and then everyone gets equality.

That works for me, but on other threads on RF the concerns espoused by those with legitimate concerns (vice 'god made adam and eve, not adam and eve and francine and ...' concerns) dealt with largely post relationship issues, like child custody, child support, inheritance, divorce proceedings and the like.

 

[Meow Mix]

That works for me, but on other threads on RF the concerns espoused by those with legitimate concerns (vice 'god made adam and eve, not adam and eve and francine and ...' concerns) dealt with largely post relationship issues, like child custody, child support, inheritance, divorce proceedings and the like.

Just because something might be difficult for judges doesn't mean we should restrict rights, though.

 

[Duck]

Just because something might be difficult for judges doesn't mean we should restrict rights, though.

Exactly right.

 

[dallas1125]

The reference to being fired was alluding to one of several other areas in which the LGBT community is discriminated against. 30 or more states within the United States allow employers (secular employers) to fire employees for being LGBT. This is one of the other civil rights violations suffered by LGBT people and defended by religious individuals using the 'forcing me to accept homosexuality in violation of my religion' canard.

So, to modify the question to fit more in line with the discussion regarding gay marriage...How is my desire to not be fired from Bob's garage (a secular, aka NOT RELIGIOUS), employer, for having married someone of the same gender (presumably because I am gay), by my christian manager (or other person with hiring/firing authority) who thinks 'homosexuality is morally wrong', 'forcing religious beliefs' on someone?

Thats terrible and needs to be changed. Although you need to take what we were talking about in context. This does not relate at all to what I am worried about when it comes to the law that they are making.

I don't care if your religion claims that I am living immorally, I don't really care if your religion feels that I am doomed to roast in hellfire (or be cast into outer darkness, sent away from God's love or whatever).

I dont care if you get married. Seems we have the same view.

Believe what you want.

Thanks, and I hope you can believe what you want.

What I care about is that YOU live by your religion's dictates and leave me and mine the **** alone.

Isnt that what I am doing?

If your religion feels that same-sex marriage is wrong, fine! Don't perform them, excommunicate those damn dirty *******, don't have a same-sex marriage, but keep YOUR religious dictates off MY rights.

HEY! We agree!

Like it or not, the leadership of the Mormon church encouraged its members to support, pay for, donate time and effort to pass Proposition 8; Proposition 8 was titled: "Eliminates Rights of Same-Sex Couples to Marry. Initiative Constitutional Amendment." The ballot summary read that the measure "changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California." source While there were quite a few other religious organizations involved (notably the Catholic Church) the Mormon church was prominent, even instrumental, in the campaign to remove rights from a group of people. Then, after actively working to remove rights from a group of people members of the Mormon faith had the temerity to be upset that there was a backlash. Personally, I was shocked that the backlash was limited to peaceful protest, for the most part. Even the peaceful protest by a group of people recently stripped of rights was held up by members of the christian community (and here I speak mostly of the designated hate groups of FRC, AFA, AFTAH, and almost any other group with "family values" in their mission statement) as examples of persecution against the members of a religion that actively worked to strip a group of people of their rights.

I grant that I could have been a little less snarky in my initial comment regarding persecution of christians by LGBT people. Obviously, protesting outside a church (or temple or whatever it is called) is worse than actively working to strip a group of people of their rights.

Well its not just protests. LDS temples were vandalized but that is a separate issue. Im sorry if you think I am actively working to strip you of your rights. Im not, in fact you might want to go back and read up on my position.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Isnt that what I am doing?

It sounds like you're personally in favour of leaving same-sex couples alone to get married if they want, but if you pay tithes to the LDS Church, then you have materially supported the campaign against same-sex marriage.

Maybe this was done unknowingly on your part... I know that the Church did quite a bit of subterfuge early on to cover up their full involvement in the Prop 8 campaign, so I suppose it's possible. However, if you donated to the Church knowing its real involvement, then I think that your words and actions do conflict to a certain degree.

 

[dallas1125]

It sounds like you're personally in favour of leaving same-sex couples alone to get married if they want, but if you pay tithes to the LDS Church, then you have materially supported the campaign against same-sex marriage.

Maybe this was done unknowingly on your part... I know that the Church did quite a bit of subterfuge early on to cover up their full involvement in the Prop 8 campaign, so I suppose it's possible. However, if you donated to the Church knowing its real involvement, then I think that your words and actions do conflict to a certain degree.

Tithing, from my understanding, only funds churches, temples and any church properties.

 

[McBell]

I really do believe it's important that people realize that the actual membership of the Church is divided on this issue. There are many of us who are in favor of granting all United States citizens the same rights under the law. Apex, Dallas and I have all voiced our support of same-sex marriage. I believe that MadHatter is the only Latter-day Saint on RF who is among those "claiming moral superiority." Instead of acknowledging that we have stood up for what we believe, the focus continues to be on the fact that we are members of a Church which opposes the right of gays to marry. You do realize, don't you, that you are preaching to the choir?

Madhatter is perhaps the only LDS on RF opposed to same sex marriage, but it was LDS church officials who were rather vocal in supporting Prop 8.

And yes, I understand that the LDS membership is rather divided on the issue of same sex marriage. Not only here on RF but here in my local area as well.

Now if you go back and look, you will note that the reply of mine that you quoted was in reply to Apex's post supporting a double standard.

 

[Katzpur]

It sounds like you're personally in favour of leaving same-sex couples alone to get married if they want, but if you pay tithes to the LDS Church, then you have materially supported the campaign against same-sex marriage.

Not really. No tithing funds or any other funds contributed by the Church membership to the Church itself were used in the campaign. The Church asked its members to contribute directly to the campaign itself (which I believe was wrong), but our tithing funds are used specifically for building and maintaining our facilities, printing scriptures and educational materials, funding our universities, etc.

...[If] you donated to the Church knowing its real involvement, then I think that your words and actions do conflict to a certain degree.

I think that most members of any organized religion have issues with their Church's leadership's stance on issues from time to time, but from a logical perspective, we have to weigh the pros and cons of donating our funds to our Church. If all members of the LDS Church were to stop contributing financially to the Church because they didn't like its stance on Prop 8, there would be so many truly beneficial Church programs that would come to a grinding halt that the effects would be felt worldwide. Our humanitarian fund, for example, feeds and clothes hundreds of thousands of people following natural disasters. Our education fund helps truly impoverished young men and women get educations so that they can contribute to their own communities in third-world countries. I don't want to see all of those things taken away.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Tithing, from my understanding, only funds churches, temples and any church properties.

... which were all (except temples, perhaps) used to materially support the Prop 8 campaign.

Not really. No tithing funds or any other funds contributed by the Church membership to the Church itself were used in the campaign. The Church asked its members to contribute directly to the campaign itself (which I believe was wrong), but our tithing funds are used specifically for building and maintaining our facilities, printing scriptures and educational materials, funding our universities, etc.

What did the Church use to ask its members to participate in the campaign? Wasn't it the LDS Church's facilities?

For instance, when this letter was typed, was it done on a computer that was paid for by tithes? It mentions that it was to be read in sacrament meetings; where are these meetings held? Do tithes pay for the utilities and upkeep of this space? How were the internet connections paid for that allowed this letter to get from Salt Lake City to wards in California?

Marketing isn't free. Neither are volunteer recruitment campaigns. It seems clear to me that the LDS Church did both, using the resources and infrastructure that was funded largely with tithes.

I think that most members of any organized religion have issues with their Church's leadership's stance on issues from time to time, but from a logical perspective, we have to weigh the pros and cons of donating our funds to our Church. If all members of the LDS Church were to stop contributing financially to the Church because they didn't like its stance on Prop 8, there would be so many truly beneficial Church programs that would come to a grinding halt that the effects would be felt worldwide. Our humanitarian fund, for example, feeds and clothes hundreds of thousands of people following natural disasters. Our education fund helps truly impoverished young men and women get educations so that they can contribute to their own communities in third-world countries. I don't want to see all of those things taken away.

Wait - I thought you said that tithes only pay for facilities, educational materials, universities, etc. No? Are these other programs directly linked to tithes, or are they directed funds that you give specific donations to, knowing that the money you give will be used for that specific purpose and nothing else? If so, that's not really what I'm talking about: I'm not saying that because the Church is "bad" or something like that, it's wrong to give them any of your money; I'm saying that the entire outcome of donating has to be considered when evaluating the morality of the donation. If you're giving money that you know will specifically go to, say, humanitarian aid, then the fact that it passed through the hands of the LDS Church doesn't necessarily mean that this decision is bad. My issue is only for cases where the money actually funds the anti-same-sex marriage campaign or (IMO) similarily immoral acts.

Also, I touched on this issue before when I acknowledged that individual Mormons may feel that the good that the LDS Church does outweighs the bad on this issue, but the Church's support of Prop 8 and its other anti-same-sex marriage initiatives does work into that balance between good and bad. And the support of the Church in this regard is something that, IMO, all tithe-paying Mormons bear some measure of responsibility for.

However, it's not an either-or scenario like you're making it out to be. Not giving money to the LDS Church doesn't necessarily mean that people in need will suffer, because this frees you to donate more to other organizations that do similar work. Will the world be worse off if you give your donation to, say, Doctors Without Borders instead of the LDS humanitarian fund? Probably not, IMO.

This might help to illustrate where I'm coming from on this issue: I've mentioned before that my wife is Catholic. I find myself in situations fairly often where I have the opportunity to donate to various Catholic causes, which I used to do from time to time. However, when I realized the harmful stance that the Catholic Church was making on the issue of same-sex marriage (mainly when the issue was before the courts and the legislature here, around 2004-2005), I stopped all support. I now refuse to give any money to any Catholic organization. I do my best to make good charitable donations through other (mainly secular) organizations, but I boycott the Catholic Church.

I realize that this is easier for me as a non-member than it would be for someone who actually belongs to the church they're boycotting (although my position has caused some friction at home and with Catholic relatives), but hopefully this helps you get some sense of my approach to this issue.

 

[dallas1125]

... which were all (except temples, perhaps) used to materially support the Prop 8 campaign.

Well that is pretty different though. The tithes were not used to directly fund prop 8. Instead the tithes were used for the same thing they were every time. The church let them use the meeting houses. We let the boy scouts use the place too. Does that mean church tithes are paying for the boy scouts?

What did the Church use to ask its members to participate in the campaign? Wasn't it the LDS Church's facilities?

Yes the facilities. Tithing had nothing to do with it besides upkeep for the property and any indirect circumstances.

For instance, when this letter was typed, was it done on a computer that was paid for by tithes? It mentions that it was to be read in sacrament meetings; where are these meetings held? Do tithes pay for the utilities and upkeep of this space? How were the internet connections paid for that allowed this letter to get from Salt Lake City to wards in California?

Well, yeah. Yet, accusing us of funding prop 8 indirectly by places and items that were indirectly used seems like a long shot.

Marketing isn't free. Neither are volunteer recruitment campaigns. It seems clear to me that the LDS Church did both, using the resources and infrastructure that was funded largely with tithes.

The LDS church has extensive programs for different things. Tithing is only used to support the properties and upkeep. Doesnt mean the church didnt use its resources, cause it did. It just didnt use tithing directly.

Wait - I thought you said that tithes only pay for facilities, educational materials, universities, etc. No?

Yes.

Are these other programs directly linked to tithes, or are they directed funds that you give specific donations to, knowing that the money you give will be used for that specific purpose and nothing else?

All the different programs are used only for their purposes. Here are the programs and what they are used for.

1. Tithing: Building of new churches, temples, and upkeep of properties.
2. Humanitarian Relief Fund: Humanitarian relief.
3. Fast Offerings: Provide financial help for people in the local community. Also used for humanitarian relief.
4. Ward Missionary: Helps pay for kids who want to go on a mission in the local community.
5. General missionary: These funds go to either missionaries that cannot afford missions, such as those from poor countries; and helps support those out in the field.
6. Book of Mormon: Goes to printing the Book of Mormon to allows the church to afford to keep giving them away for free.
7. Perpetual Education: The church has many outreach programs to teach those in third-world contries basic education, medical personel for poor communities that suffer from plagues and outbreaks, and other beneficial skills.
8. Other: This is where any funding for prop 8 would have come from.

If so, that's not really what I'm talking about: I'm not saying that because the Church is "bad" or something like that, it's wrong to give them any of your money; I'm saying that the entire outcome of donating has to be considered when evaluating the morality of the donation. If you're giving money that you know will specifically go to, say, humanitarian aid, then the fact that it passed through the hands of the LDS Church doesn't necessarily mean that this decision is bad. My issue is only for cases where the money actually funds the anti-same-sex marriage campaign or (IMO) similarily immoral acts.

It all depends on where you donate your money.

Also, I touched on this issue before when I acknowledged that individual Mormons may feel that the good that the LDS Church does outweighs the bad on this issue, but the Church's support of Prop 8 and its other anti-same-sex marriage initiatives does work into that balance between good and bad. And the support of the Church in this regard is something that, IMO, all tithe-paying Mormons bear some measure of responsibility for.

I still hold my position that paying tithing does not make me a supporter of prop 8.

However, it's not an either-or scenario like you're making it out to be. Not giving money to the LDS Church doesn't necessarily mean that people in need will suffer, because this frees you to donate more to other organizations that do similar work. Will the world be worse off if you give your donation to, say, Doctors Without Borders instead of the LDS humanitarian fund? Probably not, IMO.

Your right, dont donate to the other category.

This might help to illustrate where I'm coming from on this issue: I've mentioned before that my wife is Catholic. I find myself in situations fairly often where I have the opportunity to donate to various Catholic causes, which I used to do from time to time. However, when I realized the harmful stance that the Catholic Church was making on the issue of same-sex marriage (mainly when the issue was before the courts and the legislature here, around 2004-2005), I stopped all support. I now refuse to give any money to any Catholic organization. I do my best to make good charitable donations through other (mainly secular) organizations, but I boycott the Catholic Church.

I realize that this is easier for me as a non-member than it would be for someone who actually belongs to the church they're boycotting (although my position has caused some friction at home and with Catholic relatives), but hopefully this helps you get some sense of my approach to this issue.

Makes sense.

 

[Katzpur]

... which were all (except temples, perhaps) used to materially support the Prop 8 campaign.


What did the Church use to ask its members to participate in the campaign? Wasn't it the LDS Church's facilities?

For instance, when this letter was typed, was it done on a computer that was paid for by tithes? It mentions that it was to be read in sacrament meetings; where are these meetings held? Do tithes pay for the utilities and upkeep of this space? How were the internet connections paid for that allowed this letter to get from Salt Lake City to wards in California?

Marketing isn't free. Neither are volunteer recruitment campaigns. It seems clear to me that the LDS Church did both, using the resources and infrastructure that was funded largely with tithes.

Okay, point taken. The infrastructure that made the campaign possible was funded with member contributions. The campaign itself was not.

Also, I touched on this issue before when I acknowledged that individual Mormons may feel that the good that the LDS Church does outweighs the bad on this issue, but the Church's support of Prop 8 and its other anti-same-sex marriage initiatives does work into that balance between good and bad.

Yes, it does. It definitely works into the balance, but I still feel that the good the Church does outweighs the bad. My opinion.

And the support of the Church in this regard is something that, IMO, all tithe-paying Mormons bear some measure of responsibility for.

You must understand, though, that we believe the law of tithing to be biblically-based. Since I could not, in good conscience, fail to pay a full tithe, I would bear the full responsibility for that decision. I'm sort of damned if I do and damned if I don't, aren't I? The people who are affected by the Church's position on Prop 8 are understandably going to say that I, as a Mormon, "bear some measure of responsibility" for the results of the election. I can understand why they would feel this way. On the other hand, I am accountable to God for obeying what I believe to be a commandment He has given us.

However, it's not an either-or scenario like you're making it out to be. Not giving money to the LDS Church doesn't necessarily mean that people in need will suffer, because this frees you to donate more to other organizations that do similar work. Will the world be worse off if you give your donation to, say, Doctors Without Borders instead of the LDS humanitarian fund? Probably not, IMO.

In my opinion, and considering all of the facts I am personally aware of, probably so.

I realize that this is easier for me as a non-member than it would be for someone who actually belongs to the church they're boycotting (although my position has caused some friction at home and with Catholic relatives), but hopefully this helps you get some sense of my approach to this issue.

I do, and I appreciate your explanation. It's just that for me, obedience to certain religious laws (e.g. tithing) is very important. If the Church leaders were wrong in their allocation of my contributions (in any area, not just this Prop 8 thing), I believe that God will hold them -- not me -- accountable. My personal responsibility is to do what I honestly believe is what He expects of me. While human beings may justly or unjustly blame me for contributing to the Church financially, I am ultimately answerable to God before anyone else.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well that is pretty different though. The tithes were not used to directly fund prop 8.

I didn't say that they did. I said that they materially supported the Prop 8 campaign. Providing the infrastructure that allowed the campaign to be coordinated is material support.

Instead the tithes were used for the same thing they were every time. The church let them use the meeting houses. We let the boy scouts use the place too. Does that mean church tithes are paying for the boy scouts?

That entirely depends on how much the LDS Church charges the Boy Scouts to use their space. If they get it for free or at a discounted rate, then yes, the LDS Church does support the Boy Scouts.

Well, yeah. Yet, accusing us of funding prop 8 indirectly by places and items that were indirectly used seems like a long shot.

Tithes fund the LDS Church as a whole, no? This money enables the Church to do what it does... and "what it does" includes a major campaign to stop same-sex marriage. It's certainly not the only thing the Church does, but it's still a part.

I still hold my position that paying tithing makes me a supporter of prop 8.

I'm confused - do you mean "doesn't make"? I thought you were disagreeing with me.

 

[dallas1125]

I didn't say that they did. I said that they materially supported the Prop 8 campaign. Providing the infrastructure that allowed the campaign to be coordinated is material support.

Yes, agreed.

That entirely depends on how much the LDS Church charges the Boy Scouts to use their space. If they get it for free or at a discounted rate, then yes, the LDS Church does support the Boy Scouts.

Its free

Tithes fund the LDS Church as a whole, no? This money enables the Church to do what it does... and "what it does" includes a major campaign to stop same-sex marriage. It's certainly not the only thing the Church does, but it's still a part.

No, it doesnt fund it as a whole...It funds the religous aspects but that is it.

I'm confused - do you mean "doesn't make"? I thought you were disagreeing with me.

Sorry...doesnt make is correct.

 

[happyhummingbird]

Like I give a damn what you think, little girl.

With insults like yours, I think the "little girl" in this situation is you. BTW, condescension never works well in debates. Just a friendly hint.

 

[happyhummingbird]

Well why did you quote it then, since it has nothing to do with churches being forced to perform same-sex marriages, as you claimed?

You know he won't respond, don't you? When present with facts and reality, people of the religious persuasion tend to ignore them and slink away.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You must understand, though, that we believe the law of tithing to be biblically-based. Since I could not, in good conscience, fail to pay a full tithe, I would bear the full responsibility for that decision. I'm sort of damned if I do and damned if I don't, aren't I? The people who are affected by the Church's position on Prop 8 are understandably going to say that I, as a Mormon, "bear some measure of responsibility" for the results of the election. I can understand why they would feel this way. On the other hand, I am accountable to God for obeying what I believe to be a commandment He has given us.

Yes, I agree that given that position, all of the available options are imperfect.

In my opinion, and considering all of the facts I am personally aware of, probably so.

But you do get my point, right? Not funding good causes through the LDS Church doesn't mean that you can't fund good causes at all.

I do, and I appreciate your explanation. It's just that for me, obedience to certain religious laws (e.g. tithing) is very important. If the Church leaders were wrong in their allocation of my contributions (in any area, not just this Prop 8 thing), I believe that God will hold them -- not me -- accountable. My personal responsibility is to do what I honestly believe is what He expects of me. While human beings may justly or unjustly blame me for contributing to the Church financially, I am ultimately answerable to God before anyone else.

Hmm. I feel differently. Personally, I feel responsible for all the foreseeable consequences of my actions and choices. I don't necessarily think that other people's involvement absolves me of responsibility.

For instance, I actually left one job over moral concerns: not for anything that I was involved with directly, but my firm was bought by a larger company that was involved in other lines of business, some of which I disagreed with.* Knowing that the work I was doing would generate profit that could be used as "seed capital" to expand these other disagreable divisions, I quit.

Of course, if I thought that I had been commanded by God to keep that job, I probably would have dealt with the situation differently.



*Hopefully without pulling the thread off-track: this was during the Iraq War. One of the company's divisions (admittedly a very small division, compared to the rest of the company) had a contract with the US armed forces doing refueling, rearmament and maintenance at a base in Kuwait for aircraft that were carrying out missions in Iraq.

 

[happyhummingbird]

IMO, that's what the Mormons are really mad about. They're jealous that gay people advocated for recognition of their marriages and are prevailing, while their leadership instead gave in on what was previously a basic tenet of their faith.

Still nursing an old wound perhaps.

 

[madhatter85]

Then you will realize that they are talking about public places, not private places.

If you are serving the public, there should be absolutely no discrimination. If you clearly state that you are a private organization, that you own private land, etc. etc. etc. then you might have a case.

For instance, BYU is a private, religious university. The University of Washington is public university. You see a difference?

Quotes from the article I think you might have missed:

"..Because I do think that if a gay couple ends up being told their wedding cannot be filmed, five couples will not sue, but the sixth couple will."

"Religion shouldn't be about violating the law."

those are quotes from people who were advocating trampling religious freedoms in the name of supposed "equality." you should probably take some English classes so you can learn to read articles the way they were intended rather than dismantling and taking quotes out of context.

 

[McBell]

those are quotes from people who were advocating trampling religious freedoms in the name of supposed "equality." you should probably take some English classes so you can learn to read articles the way they were intended rather than dismantling and taking quotes out of context.

 

[happyhummingbird]

those are quotes from people who were advocating trampling religious freedoms in the name of supposed "equality." you should probably take some English classes so you can learn to read articles the way they were intended rather than dismantling and taking quotes out of context.

Perhaps you don't have a great education and you don't know how to read and missed Autodiadact's post #2308

Here is a link and the full text of it.

It's not an "area used for religious worship." It's a pavilion on a boardwalk. Here's a picture of the actual facility:

It happens to be owned by a church, who rents it out for weddings, bar mitzvahs, retirement parties, etc. Being owned by a church does not create an exemption from discrimination laws.

Do you disagree? If a Catholic Church opens a low-income apartment building, should they be able to discriminate against African-Americans who want to rent there?

Strike a million, try again.