LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[madhatter85]

I really do believe it's important that people realize that the actual membership of the Church is divided on this issue. There are many of us who are in favor of granting all United States citizens the same rights under the law. Apex, Dallas and I have all voiced our support of same-sex marriage. I believe that MadHatter is the only Latter-day Saint on RF who is among those "claiming moral superiority." Instead of acknowledging that we have stood up for what we believe, the focus continues to be on the fact that we are members of a Church which opposes the right of gays to marry. You do realize, don't you, that you are preaching to the choir?

And I know we have had our differences in the past and I respectfully disagree. I feel that following the prophets counsel is more important than anything else. especially in a "world where people are confused, if you don't believe it go and watch the news" so I choose to Follow the Prophet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Its free

Then the LDS Church supports the Boy Scouts. Whether this is reflects positively or negatively on the Church depends on whether the Boy Scouts are a positive or negative thing.

No, it doesnt fund it as a whole...It funds the religous aspects but that is it.

And don't those "religious aspects" include quite a bit of the strategizing, communication, and other activities that were part of this campaign?

Sorry...doesnt make is correct.

Okay. I'm not saying that you're a "prop 8 supporter"; I'm saying that, because of your support of the LDS Church - an organization that gave significant material support to the Prop 8 campaign, and that I believe you knew was giving this support when you were tithing - you are less of a Prop 8 opponent than you would have been if you had not supported the LDS Church.

 

[madhatter85]

Perhaps you don't have a great education and you don't know how to read and missed Autodiadact's post #2308

Actually I do not read Auto's posts because she is one of i think 2 people on my ignore list. and that is only because she is incapable of having a rational conversation. She is nothing more than a forum troll who makes derisive comments when she doesn't like what is said.

 

[madhatter85]

The only arguments I have seen in favor if it have been comparing the gay community to the black community.

You cannot compare behavioral traits to an ethnic/racial trait. It is not anywhere near the same.

 

[dallas1125]

Actually I do not read Auto's posts because she is one of i think 2 people on my ignore list. and that is only because she is incapable of having a rational conversation. She is nothing more than a forum troll who makes derisive comments when she doesn't like what is said.

Arent we all like that in the end though? :sarcastic

 

[McBell]

Actually I do not read Auto's posts because she is one of i think 2 people on my ignore list. and that is only because she is incapable of having a rational conversation. She is nothing more than a forum troll who makes derisive comments when she doesn't like what is said.

 

[happyhummingbird]

Actually I do not read Auto's posts because she is one of i think 2 people on my ignore list. and that is only because she is incapable of having a rational conversation. She is nothing more than a forum troll who makes derisive comments when she doesn't like what is said.

Irony.

Well, if you are unwilling to read what is presented to you, then you yourself are not very useful in this debate. If you are unwilling to read the information presented, then you only have yourself to blame.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only arguments I have seen in favor if it have been comparing the gay community to the black community.

... and comparing sexuality to religion.

... and appeals to equality under the law.

... and arguments pointing out the illogic of the anti-same-sex marriage position.

... and appeals to simple human decency and compassion.

 

[McBell]

... and comparing sexuality to religion.

... and appeals to equality under the law.

... and arguments pointing out the illogic of the anti-same-sex marriage position.

... and appeals to simple human decency and compassion.

Seems to me that he is admitting to flat out ignoring all those you have listed.

 

[Katzpur]

With insults like yours, I think the "little girl" in this situation is you. BTW, condescension never works well in debates. Just a friendly hint.

Uh... with all due respect, you are probably the last person on this forum who's in any position to offer me advice.

 

[madhatter85]

Arent we all like that in the end though? :sarcastic

I am really not trying to be that way. I am posting my opinions/beliefs no matter how unfavorable people may see them.
I don't see defining marriage as between a man and a woman as denying anyone any rights. every man is capable of marrying any woman under the law and vice-versa. A-typical behaviors that do not remove a person's volition do not require special concessions.

They are free to be as gay as they like and have all their gay fun-times with each other. I really could not care less. Marriage, on the other hand, is an institution designed for the baring and rearing of children.

Infertility is not behavioral and cannot be "helped". homosexuality is behavioral and can be "helped". so there is no reason why infertile couples should not be barred from marrying.

Until the gay community/gay supporters actually come out with a viable argument when they are comparing apples to apples my position will remain the same.

 

[madhatter85]

... and comparing sexuality to religion.

so you are then saying sexuality is then a choice? :sarcastic

... and appeals to equality under the law.

they already have equal protection under all laws.

... and arguments pointing out the illogic of the anti-same-sex marriage position.

I don't see any valid arguments. :sorry1:

... and appeals to simple human decency and compassion.

Completely subjective. Justice is blind. Oh, sorry 'bout that.

 

[McBell]

Until the gay community/gay supporters actually come out with a viable argument when they are comparing apples to apples my position will remain the same.

Actually, the way the system is supposed to work, same sex marriage would have to be proven a bad thing in a court of law in order to be banned.

So basically, unless you can come up with a legitimate legal reason to ban same sex marriage, to ban same sex marriage is illegal.

 

[Katzpur]

But you do get my point, right? Not funding good causes through the LDS Church doesn't mean that you can't fund good causes at all.

Absolutely, and I do contribute to other causes.

For instance, I actually left one job over moral concerns: not for anything that I was involved with directly, but my firm was bought by a larger company that was involved in other lines of business, some of which I disagreed with.* Knowing that the work I was doing would generate profit that could be used as "seed capital" to expand these other disagreable divisions, I quit.

I admire that in you.

Of course, if I thought that I had been commanded by God to keep that job, I probably would have dealt with the situation differently.

Which more or less describes the position I'm in. Seriously, every time there's a story about a whistle-blower in the news, my husband breathes a huge sigh of relief that it wasn't me. In the situation you described, I would have been very much inclined to do exactly as you did. In terms of my Church's policies, that would be essentially like cutting off my nose to spite my face.

 

[McBell]

they already have equal protection under all laws.

This is one of your favourite strawmen.
He said equality under law.
He did not say equal protection under law.

I don't see any valid arguments. :sorry1:

Only because you refuse to validate anything to yourself that goes against your prejudice.

Completely subjective. Justice is blind. Oh, sorry 'bout that.

What is your legitimate legal basis for banning same sex marriage?

 

[Katzpur]

And I know we have had our differences in the past and I respectfully disagree. I feel that following the prophets counsel is more important than anything else. especially in a "world where people are confused, if you don't believe it go and watch the news" so I choose to Follow the Prophet.

Good for you. I support your right to do whatever your conscience tells you to do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't see defining marriage as between a man and a woman as denying anyone any rights. every man is capable of marrying any woman under the law and vice-versa.

I asked you a question a while back and didn't get a response: would you consider it acceptable if the LDS Church was banned, but everyone had the same right to attend whatever mosque they wanted?

After all, this would be entirely equal treatment under the law. Probably not treatment that everyone would equally like, but still equal... no?

A-typical behaviors that do not remove a person's volition do not require special concessions.

Is membership in the Church of Latter-Day Saints not an "a-typical behaviour that does not remove a person's volition"?

They are free to be as gay as they like and have all their gay fun-times with each other. I really could not care less. Marriage, on the other hand, is an institution designed for the baring and rearing of children.

I call baloney.

I married my wife because I love her and want to make a life with her. If kids happen, great, but if they don't, my marriage will not be any less of a marriage.

If you want to make the raison d'etre for your marriage to be pumping out babies, nobody's stopping you. But don't presume to tell me what the purpose of my marriage is. And don't attempt to impose your religious views on me by telling me that the actual purpose for my marriage (one that is entirely available to same-sex couples, BTW) is not valid.

Infertility is not behavioral and cannot be "helped". homosexuality is behavioral and can be "helped". so there is no reason why infertile couples should not be barred from marrying.

If marriage really is only about child-rearing, then whether the capacity for children is "behavioural" or not is entirely irrelevant.

Until the gay community/gay supporters actually come out with a viable argument when they are comparing apples to apples my position will remain the same.

And until you come up with an actual logical, coherent, consistent argument, my position will remain the same: that your opposition to same-sex marriage is based on nothing more than your personal prejudices against homosexuality and not any rational reason.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Absolutely, and I do contribute to other causes.

Cool.

I admire that in you.

Thanks... though it certainly helped that I was able to find another job quickly.

The issue was important enough to me that I was willing to deal with a longer commute. I doubt I would've left if it would've meant getting evicted for not paying my mortgage.

Which more or less describes the position I'm in. Seriously, every time there's a story about a whistle-blower in the news, my husband breathes a huge sigh of relief that it wasn't me. In the situation you described, I would have been very much inclined to do exactly as you did. In terms of my Church's policies, that would be essentially like cutting off my nose to spite my face.

I don't know... I try to understand the position of those in the LDS Church who disagree with policies like this one. I'm not sure what I would do - this is one issue where I see things as so clearly right and wrong and IMO so non-negotiable that I'd be inclined to automatically dismiss any church that didn't support same-sex marriage as apostate... or (and I'm sure that people in this thread will jump on me for saying this) at least as having seriously lost sight of the compassion expressed by Jesus in the Gospels. "A good tree does not bear bad fruit"; especially when I consider the misery that can result from it and the sheer lack of charity involved, I see the opposition to same-sex marriage and its consequences as some pretty bad fruit.

Of course, that's probably easy for me to say as someone who isn't connected to any church at all, let alone one that meets that description.

 

[silvermoon383]

Actually I do not read Auto's posts because she is one of i think 2 people on my ignore list. and that is only because she is incapable of having a rational conversation. She is nothing more than a forum troll who makes derisive comments when she doesn't like what is said.

Mine too Mestemia...

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know... I try to understand the position of those in the LDS Church who disagree with policies like this one. I'm not sure what I would do - this is one issue where I see things as so clearly right and wrong and IMO so non-negotiable that I'd be inclined to automatically dismiss any church that didn't support same-sex marriage as apostate...

But you've already dismissed every Church that promotes a belief in God as apostate! Seriously, I do get what you're saying, and I respect your position. About all I can really say is that the Church is led by human beings, and human beings are fallible. When I look at my options, which are basically two -- (1) Remain in the Church I love and that I believe to be true (in spite of policies I may disagree with) and continue to do my best to do what I can to promote civil rights for everyone or (2) throw out the baby with the bath water -- there is really not much of a dilemma for me.

The issue was important enough to me that I was willing to deal with a longer commute. I doubt I would've left if it would've meant getting evicted for not paying my mortgage.

I moved this paragraph to the end of my reply because I think your comment may be useful in helping you to understand my position. You say that the possibility of being evicted for not paying your mortgage might have been reason enough for you to not have taken the drastic action you did. I realize that this might be a difficult thing for you to do, but try, if you can, to understand that to me, disobeying what I believe God wants would result in the possibility of my being evicted. (That's an exaggeration, mind you, but hopefully serves to illustrate my point.)