LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you think my opinion odd or an unusual legal position, then you are unstudied in jurisprudence.

You realize she's an attorney, right?

I trust her knowledge of jurisprudence a lot more than yours.

 

[Father Heathen]

I find the first part of his statement bigoted and disgusting, although I agree it is not very hypocritical.

You missed the point. I was trying to make an analogy. The things that people say about homosexuality could also be said about Mormons. So if it's fair to pass laws against homosexuals based on someone else's moral sentiments, then it would be equally fair to pass laws against Mormons based on someone else's moral sentiments. That's all I'm trying to convey.
Sometimes I gotta assume the role of "big meanie" to impart my sagely wisdom unto the children.

 

[Apex]

You missed the point. I was trying to make an analogy. The things that people say about homosexuality could also be said about Mormons. So if it's fair to pass laws against homosexuals based on someone else's moral sentiments, then it would be equally fair to pass laws against Mormons based on someone else's moral sentiments. That's all I'm trying to convey.

Ok, I agree.

 

[idea]

[/size][/font]
If this is one of the FRC studies, you're now aware (or should be aware) that they misrepresent and mis-state information from the sources they use to create conclusions that don't actually agree with the data.

OK, here you go, let’s have a look at the moral stable modest parental candidates, straight from their pep rallies and parades... Let's hear what they are all about from their own mouths...

Wonderful parents and role models, love the water balloons, and duck tape bikini.
link
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08b/pride_parade/part1/index.html

beautiful isn’t it? Just the kind of program I want my tax dollars going to.
link
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08b/pride_week/dyke_march/index.html

homosexual movement and your kids:
link
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08b/youth_pride08/event.html

homosexuality for kids
Link

inspirational stories from children of GLTB families
link
http://www.familyresearchinst.org/fri_homokids.html

 

[McBell]

I find the first part of his statement bigoted and disgusting, although I agree it is not very hypocritical.

But you did not explain how it is bigoted.

I hope you did not automatically assume I was against it.

It seems that I did make that assumption.
My apologies.

 

[McBell]

OK, here you go, let’s have a look at the moral stable modest parental candidates, straight from their pep rallies and parades... Let's hear what they are all about from their own mouths...

Wonderful parents and role models, love the water balloons, and duck tape bikini.
link


beautiful isn’t it? Just the kind of program I want my tax dollars going to.
link


homosexual movement and your kids:
link


homosexuality for kids
Link

inspirational stories from children of GLTB families
link

Perhaps you can find one source that is not an anti-gay activist group?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

OK, here you go, let’s have a look at the moral stable modest parental candidates, straight from their pep rallies and parades... Let's hear what they are all about from their own mouths...

Wonderful parents and role models, love the water balloons, and duck tape bikini.
link

Neat. Kinda reminds me of Mardi Gras, but without the drunks.

And speaking of Mardi Gras, you do realize the folly in taking the "Leather Alliance" as a representative sample of the gay population, right? It's kinda like assuming the "will flash guys for beads" girls at Mardi Gras represent you as a heterosexual woman.

 

[Riverwolf]

OK, here you go, let’s have a look at the moral stable modest parental candidates, straight from their pep rallies and parades... Let's hear what they are all about from their own mouths...

Wonderful parents and role models, love the water balloons, and duck tape bikini.
link


beautiful isn’t it? Just the kind of program I want my tax dollars going to.
link


homosexual movement and your kids:
link


homosexuality for kids
Link

inspirational stories from children of GLTB families
link

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Next time, why don't use the Pink Panther as a source on how to survive a bomb explosion?

Or, better yet, justify that foreigners are bad from a Ku Klux Klan website?

Or that Jews are evil from a Nazi website?

 

[Orontes]

You realize she's an attorney, right?

I trust her knowledge of jurisprudence a lot more than yours.

Mistake number one, being an attorney meaning one is well studied in jurisprudence doesn't follow. It also suggests you don't know many attorneys. Mistake number two, you assume there is only one attorney involved in the thread.

 

[emiliano]

9_10 Penguin wrote.

I prefer Paul's "accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgement on disputable matters" or "and now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

You don’t know much about ST. Paul do you? This is his take on the issue of Homosexuality: 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
So if you love them as your neighbour you would like them to repent and changed. “accept him ?” you a reading this into scripture there is no other way repent and change of life stile. But scripture is clear they shall not inherit the kingdom of God unless they turn for the path that they are travelling in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Mistake number one, being an attorney meaning one is well studied in jurisprudence doesn't follow.

It means one has passed the Bar, which usually means one has a degree in Law.

It also suggests you don't know many attorneys. Mistake number two, you assume there is only one attorney involved in the thread.

Are you saying you're an attorney? Just curious.

And I never assumed there was only one attorney in this thread; just that your assessment of Auto was incorrect.

You don’t know much about ST. Paul do you? This is his take on the issue of Homosexuality: 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,

And, from my reading of the Bible, a believer is none of those things, regardless of what he or she does. Believers are dead to the Law (Rom 7:4). In its place, believers are guided by the Spirit and by faith, and it is only by this standard, and not the Old Law, that their actions can be judged as sinful or not (Rom 14:22-23).

And my not referring to Paul as a saint was deliberate.

So if you love them as your neighbour you would like them to repent and changed. “accept him ?” you a reading this into scripture there is no other way repent and change of life stile.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but I think the Bible repeats the same message over and over, such as in Romans 14:4 (NIV):

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

But scripture is clear they shall not inherit the kingdom of God unless they turn for the path that they are travelling in.

I see a common message that repeats over and over again in the New Testament: that the Old Law, i.e. the laid down, rigid code of behavior, has been set aside. In its place, people are free to be guided by fundamental virtues and the Spirit. Here is the clearest example that I know of, 1 Colossians 2:13-23 (NIV):

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

 

[Magic Man]

I find the first part of his statement bigoted and disgusting, although I agree it is not very hypocritical.

Then you would agree that anyone who holds the position that homosexuality is bad and harmful to society in general is bigotted? That view is actually worse than what FH said.

Do you know what my argument is? I have no problem with same sex marriage. I hope you did not automatically assume I was against it.

It doesn't matter. Do you still think that homosexuality is wrong and hurts society? If so, then you are on the same page with FH. He has no problem with you practicing Mormonism, but he strongly disagrees with it. If you don't like homosexuality and think it's wrong, then you are bigotted by your own standards.

 

[idea]

Perhaps you can find one source that is not an anti-gay activist group?

My source was a homosexual parade. A homosexual parade, NOT an anti-gay parade. Don’t be upset at how homosexuals act in their own parade.

Neat. Kinda reminds me of Mardi Gras, but without the drunks.

And speaking of Mardi Gras, you do realize the folly in taking the "Leather Alliance" as a representative sample of the gay population, right? It's kinda like assuming the "will flash guys for beads" girls at Mardi Gras represent you as a heterosexual woman.

If the “Leather Alliance” was not part of the gay population, why were they invited to the homosexual parade? You don’t see Easter bunnies in the Christmas parade do you? That would be because in Christmas parades everything has a Christmas theme – get my drift?

The Mardi Gras is not named the “heterosexual pride party” because it is not. If you can find a “Heterosexual parade” please let me know, we can look at the participants of and discuss trends among Heterosexuals…

One good representative of the “church going bible bashing hypocritical bigots” as you describe them – if you want to see a representative of these “horrible” people, go to one of their “conventions” – go to church – you will not find anyone scantily clad cussing people having sex in public – you will find men and women talking politely with one another dressed professionally.

If you want to see what republicans are about, go to a republican event and look at the types of people that show up – that is who republicans are.

If you want to know what Christians are about, go to a church, look around, that is who Christians are.

If you want to know what gay and lesbians are about, go to a gay and lesbian parade – that is who gay and lesbians are.

The people from these festivals are the same who want children:
7) Boy (12) Oakland:...... When I was younger, I went to women’s festivals with my mother. There’s this kind of famous picture of me and my biological mom. She’s on stage with long hair and her breasts are hanging out and she’s got me in her arms. I always try to hide that picture,... It’s kind of embarrassing. My mother was one of the first lesbians to choose to have a child…
18) Woman (19) student in Wisconsin, heterosexual:.... my mother, my sisters and I attended these [lesbian/feminist] merrymakings.... I’d sometimes bring my best friend and we’d pretend to ‘be together’ to avoid being hit on." (pp. 102-106) Em, Sc, E

Please show where anyone has told any males that being masculine is bad, or females that being feminine is bad. Please produce and iota of evidence supporting your claim. Please stop lying and making false accusations against innocent families and posters in this thread.

thank you Dr. Einstein, and if you hadn't told me that, I might never have noticed.
And if each person is different, kids get different things from each person.

testimonials of kids raised by gays and lesbians link – here are some quotes from the kids:

Children who want a father in their life, and don’t have them, male children who are told they are "mutants" and the "most despicable thing on earth" because they are male, such a balanced environment - for sure.

Girl (7) California: … What really bothers me is when my friends come over and them they get into [asking me] if I know my dad. So I tell them no, not really.... I ask my mom about my dad but... you see, I wonder about him. I don't know where he is. I don’t think my mom knows either.

7) Boy (12) Oakland:... usually I’m not around a lot of men. I’m mostly around women... my little brother, who is half black, asked [the gay roommate] to be his father........... I might have been two years old when I first asked, ‘Where’s my daddy’. She probably said, ‘you don’t have a daddy, you have a donor’.... Right now I don’t have any reason to find out who my donor was. He could be a real *******." (pp. 50-53) Hy, Em, D, F, I
8) Woman (25) Massachusetts,.... I was having trouble spending the weekdays with lesbians, who discussed the evils of the patriarchy and the value of women-only space, and then spending an orthodox Shabbos with the other side of my family...... by junior high things were very bad at home... I was discouraged from having male friends, and any female friends were to be made aware that I lived in a lesbian household before I could have them over........ men were called mutants, straight women were considered disowned sisters who wasted woman-energy on men, … Anyone who was not like us was evil... [at age 14] I moved out and went to live in a lesbian boarding house.... I also learned to fear the world’s judgment, to see relationships as temporary, to be distrustful, and to withhold communication as a means of self- protection and punishment…. I see evidence of how emotionally detached I’ve become.… L and my mother… explained their parenting style by saying that the patriarchy was pushing me hard in one direction, and they wanted to counteract that pressure by pushing just as hard in the other. I’m lucky I didn’t get squashed.
11) Girl (7) adopted Indian girl:.... I say daddies are as dumb as bubble gum. I like L being with A because I get to snuggle with them in the nighttime....
20) Man (27), "Lesbians should not fill their children with their own fears and hatred. … I distinctly remember a woman telling me, ‘you are a most despicable thing on earth because you are nothing but a future man’.... for me, this kind of hatred ruined my life. This hatred, of men by women, of women by myself, has existed in my life until recently.... … I have built such immense and thick walls around my spirit that nothing but the thinnest vein of emotion seeps through.... I have survived by staying in shallow water." (pp. 110-116) Hy, Em, Sx, T, V, E, Dis, N, C
who said they were not sexist?
link

 

[McBell]

My source was a homosexual parade. A homosexual parade, NOT an anti-gay parade. Don’t be upset at how homosexuals act in their own parade.

Why the lies and deciept?
Your source, you know, the website you linked to, was anti-gay.
Nice try though.

 

[idea]

Why the lies and deciept?
Your source, you know, the website you linked to, was anti-gay.
Nice try though.

Sorry, I tried, but I had a hard time finding homosexual parade pictures from a homosexual group that were not too vulgar for this website.

Here, I will try again, click at your own risk!
Have to love the onion!
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491
"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

A random blog
http://lakeviewcoffeejoe.blogspot.com/2008/06/pride-parade.html
again, women with no shirts on displaying themselves in public, people in bikinis trying to have group sex with one another – or not sex per say, they are not able to do that (don’t have the right matching parts and all that)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52103

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57022

At least these Christian sites put boxes over the picts so you don’t have to see all.
http://americansfortruth.com/issues/the-agenda-glbtq-activist-groups/gay-culture/homosexual-pride-parades-festivals

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My source was a homosexual parade. A homosexual parade, NOT an anti-gay parade. Don’t be upset at how homosexuals act in their own parade.


If the “Leather Alliance” was not part of the gay population, why were they invited to the homosexual parade? You don’t see Easter bunnies in the Christmas parade do you? That would be because in Christmas parades everything has a Christmas theme – get my drift?

And within that theme, each float or group plays up different aspects. Just as it would be foolish to assume that every Christian plays a musical instrument just because marching bands are featured in a Christmas parade, it's foolish to assume that any particular group in a Pride parade represents the views, feelings and preferences of all homosexual people.

The "Leather Alliance" is part of the gay population (and, BTW, they're part of the straight population, too. I'm not one for leather fetishes myself, but from what I understand, the vast majority of people who engage in them are straight), but they do not define what each and every gay person thinks.

Homosexual people are people; they have a wide spectrum of views and opinions. There is no single "gay culture" any more than there is a single "straight culture".

The Mardi Gras is not named the “heterosexual pride party” because it is not. If you can find a “Heterosexual parade” please let me know, we can look at the participants of and discuss trends among Heterosexuals…

I thought we were talking about how people of different orientations conduct themselves in public. Personally, I think that a drunk girl flashing at guys at Mardi Gras is overtly heterosexual. Do you disagree?

There are aspects of the world that are nothing but heterosexual, but many people tend not to associate themselves with them. Not too far from my in-laws' house, there's a strip club with a small attached motel in the back. Do I think this is an establishment that is exclusively heterosexually-based? Absolutely. Do I think it reflects on me as a heterosexual man? Definitely not.

One good representative of the “church going bible bashing hypocritical bigots” as you describe them

Back right up: I have never in my life described anyone as a “church going bible bashing hypocritical bigot”.

– if you want to see a representative of these “horrible” people, go to one of their “conventions” – go to church – you will not find anyone scantily clad cussing people having sex in public – you will find men and women talking politely with one another dressed professionally.

If you want to see what republicans are about, go to a republican event and look at the types of people that show up – that is who republicans are.

If you want to know what Christians are about, go to a church, look around, that is who Christians are.

If you want to know what gay and lesbians are about, go to a gay and lesbian parade – that is who gay and lesbians are.

Ah... so, parades and festivals are the true marks of a group?

So, then, you wouldn't have any problem with me drawing conclusions about all Christians based on my opinion of the groups who march in Orangemen's Day parades in Northern Ireland?

testimonials of kids raised by gays and lesbians link – here are some quotes from the kids:

Do you think these are typical of the experience of all kids raised by gay and lesbian parents?

Do you think all lesbians teach their kids to hate men?

Do you think that you wouldn't be able to find examples of bad heterosexual parents?

 

[Magic Man]

Sorry, I tried, but I had a hard time finding homosexual parade pictures from a homosexual group that were not too vulgar for this website.

Here, I will try again, click at your own risk!
Have to love the onion!
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491
"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

A random blog
http://lakeviewcoffeejoe.blogspot.com/2008/06/pride-parade.html
again, women with no shirts on displaying themselves in public, people in bikinis trying to have group sex with one another – or not sex per say, they are not able to do that (don’t have the right matching parts and all that)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52103

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57022

At least these Christian sites put boxes over the picts so you don’t have to see all.
http://americansfortruth.com/issues/the-agenda-glbtq-activist-groups/gay-culture/homosexual-pride-parades-festivals

Wonderful! Now you have plenty of info from a parody news site (as in makes stuff up all the time, and is not supposed to be taken seriously at all), a random person's blog (who, of course should be completely credible because she helps support your conclusions) and Christian sites (because they're guaranteed to give us the real story about homosexuals without putting their own spin on it). Good work! Now, can we get some good info?

 

[McBell]

Sorry, I tried, but I had a hard time finding homosexual parade pictures from a homosexual group that were not too vulgar for this website.

Here, I will try again, click at your own risk!
Have to love the onion!
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491
"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

A random blog
http://lakeviewcoffeejoe.blogspot.com/2008/06/pride-parade.html
again, women with no shirts on displaying themselves in public, people in bikinis trying to have group sex with one another – or not sex per say, they are not able to do that (don’t have the right matching parts and all that)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52103

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57022

At least these Christian sites put boxes over the picts so you don’t have to see all.
http://americansfortruth.com/issues/the-agenda-glbtq-activist-groups/gay-culture/homosexual-pride-parades-festivals

How about you stop with the ratification process and do some real research?

 

[fantome profane]

Sorry, I tried, but I had a hard time finding homosexual parade pictures from a homosexual group that were not too vulgar for this website.

Here, I will try again, click at your own risk!
Have to love the onion!
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491
"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

Are you familiar with the concepts of Poe’s Law?

You are so far gone on this issue that you can no longer tell the difference between reality and fiction.

 

[Orontes]

Mistake number one, being an attorney meaning one is well studied in jurisprudence doesn't follow. It also suggests you don't know many attorneys. Mistake number two, you assume there is only one attorney involved in the thread.

It means one has passed the Bar, which usually means one has a degree in Law.

[/quote]

Alas, no. Passing the Bar and having the ability to practice law doesn't mean one is necessarily well studied in jurisprudence. Jurisprudence is a branch of philosophy. It is the philosophy of law: the study of the concepts and principles of law. It is distinct from any legal licensing or the process to be licensed (a class or two on Constitutional law will not do). To be well studied in jurisprudence would indicate a familiarly with the larger context of the philosophy of law i.e the history of jurisprudential thought from Plato, through the Scholastics, through the likes of Locke, Grotius, Montesquieu, Rousseau etc. into Modernity with figures like Bentham, Austin, Hohfeld, Rawls, Nozick etc. It would also indicate a general acumen to speak to, and within the realm of, the ideas of law.

Are you saying you're an attorney? Just curious.

I don't think it's relevant, but yes.

And I never assumed there was only one attorney in this thread; just that your assessment of Auto was incorrect.

No, it was not.