LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Father Heathen]

Heterosexuality causes pregnancy, thank goodness. Without it our species would be long gone.

Why do you people keep regurgitating that like it's relevant? Everyone isn't going to magically turn gay, and there is no nor ever will be a shortage of children in the world, so what is your point? What about heterosexuals who don't want children, or for medical reasons can't have them? Should they be forbidden to marry?

 

[Riverwolf]

Starfish, you still haven't given any specific examples of why both a mother and a father is optimum for child-rearing. Broad examples aren't enough, and can be interpreted in many different ways. Do you just not know?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Heterosexuality causes pregnancy, thank goodness. Without it our species would be long gone.

I disagree.

There's nothing that heterosexuality can do that bisexuality can't, and procreation doesn't have to be about attraction; there's always the option to "close your eyes and think of England", to quote Queen Victoria (IIRC).

All those scenarios are examples of irresponsibility, not heterosexuality. Yes unwanted pregnancy happens. But sex is voluntary, except in rape. One can choose one's behavior. My opinion on sexuality also includes no unwed sex. Period. I believe that the power of procreation is God-given and with it comes tremendous responsibility that we will all be held acountable for.

I think Auto's point is that heterosexuality + irresponsibility can result in unwanted pregnancy. Homosexuality + irresponsibility almost always cannot.

I am not supporting legislation to outlaw homosexuality. I am not calling for laws against irresponsible behavior. I believe in free choice in most cases. I do support the traditional defination of marriage between a man and woman as a protection for the optimum family situation for the benefit of children. This is how it's always been in every major society throughout history. Our current society is not wiser than all of history. This change in marriage is entirely new ground for mankind.

But it reflects reality.

I mentioned a point before, but I think it got lost in the mass of posts that this thread has become: the choice available isn't one between the existence of same-sex parented families or not; it's between giving rights or not to those families, who will exist no matter what.

You have your ideas about what an "ideal" family is. Personally, I disagree with them, but I recognize them. However, given that these "non-ideal" (in your measure) families exist, doesn't it behoove us to make sure that those families and the children in them receive the protection from the government that helps foster a solid, supportive family that all children are entitled to?

You talked about how it's best to have a mother and a father rather than two parents... but knowing that this option is not available, which would you prefer:

- on the death of one parent, for the child to stay with the only other parent he or she has ever known, or
- on the death of one parent, for the child to be sent off to some uncle grandparent and be cut off from their surviving parent?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I said in SOME ways all dads are, or should be, alike.

What ways are those?

 

[Starfish]

They're examples of hetersexual irresponsiblity. Homosexuals are no more responsible; they just don't happen to have unwanted pregnancy. All that I'm saying is that in reality, this happens. It is a negative consequence of heterosexuality. Wanted pregnancy is a positive consequence. When you talk about heterosexuality, you have to include the whole picture, or it's inaccurate. You're basing your opinion on a falsely positive picture of heterosexuality.

I also submit that if you haven't read the research, and don't know any gay families, you're also basing it on a falsely negative picture of gay families. And false pictures are not good bases for public policy.

No, it hasn't. Your experience is too narrow. There are many family models around the world. One of the most common is polygamous. Yes, it's new. The most you can logically conclude from that is that we don't know, NOT that it's bad. What we do know so far is that it's fine.

Societies do change, and those changes are often for the better. There are many obvious examples: outlawing slavery, female sufferage, racial equality. My opinion is that gay rights is in that category of social progress that we will one day look back at and applaud.

Using your logic, one could say that pedophiles don't cause unwanted pregnancy either. Not that I put the both on the same level. I don't at all. Yes, pregnancy is an issue. Responsible, moral behavior is the answer. And it's what we need to teach our children, through example.

I have read research. You probably recall that you and I have discussed this before. I learned to be careful to separate same-sex parenting from single parenting. It's through my reading that I believe that many children are raised successfully, as I've said repeatedly.

But I keep coming back to the difference between men and women. Both are needed in giving a child the best experience. I don't believe an aunt, uncle, or male-figure of whatever type, is as good as a dad who lives with the child, married to the mother. Yes, I get this from life experience. I've lived long enough to have seen a lot.

 

[Starfish]

What ways are those?

ALL good dads love their children unconditionally.
All good dads are willing to sacrifice whatever is needed for the sake of their children.
All good dads love and respect their children's mother.
All good dads teach their children responsibility, honesty, morality and integrity, through word and example.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

ALL good dads love their children unconditionally.
All good dads are willing to sacrifice whatever is needed for the sake of their children.
All good dads love and respect their children's mother.
All good dads teach their children responsibility, honesty, morality and integrity, through word and example.

That describes all good mothers, too (with "father" in the place of "mother" in the third one in the case of an opposite-sex couple, obviously).

Edit: do you have any characteristics of a good father that would be exclusive to men?

 

[Starfish]

That describes all good mothers, too (with "father" in the place of "mother" in the third one, obviously).

Of course. Therefore I'll add:
All good dads teach their children what a real man is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course. Therefore I'll add:
All good dads teach their children what a real man is.

Okay.

What's a "real man"?

 

[UnTheist]

Okay.

What's a "real man"?

Hetero man

 

[Autodidact]

Starfish, you still haven't given any specific examples of why both a mother and a father is optimum for child-rearing. Broad examples aren't enough, and can be interpreted in many different ways. Do you just not know?

I thought of one. Men cannot breastfeed, which is optimum for infants.

 

[UnTheist]

I thought of one. Men cannot breastfeed, which is optimum for infants.

So what do you suppose they do about that?

 

[Autodidact]

But I keep coming back to the difference between men and women. Both are needed in giving a child the best experience. I don't believe an aunt, uncle, or male-figure of whatever type, is as good as a dad who lives with the child, married to the mother. Yes, I get this from life experience. I've lived long enough to have seen a lot.

But you haven't seen any gay families, right? So isn't your experience lacking in exactly the information you would most need to form an opinion about gay parenting?

btw, Star, where do you live? Would you like to meet some gay families?

 

[Autodidact]

So what do you suppose they do about that?

Bottle feed would be my guess, not being one myself.

 

[Starfish]

I disagree.

There's nothing that heterosexuality can do that bisexuality can't, and procreation doesn't have to be about attraction; there's always the option to "close your eyes and think of England", to quote Queen Victoria (IIRC).


I think Auto's point is that heterosexuality + irresponsibility can result in unwanted pregnancy. Homosexuality + irresponsibility almost always cannot.


But it reflects reality.

I mentioned a point before, but I think it got lost in the mass of posts that this thread has become: the choice available isn't one between the existence of same-sex parented families or not; it's between giving rights or not to those families, who will exist no matter what.

You have your ideas about what an "ideal" family is. Personally, I disagree with them, but I recognize them. However, given that these "non-ideal" (in your measure) families exist, doesn't it behoove us to make sure that those families and the children in them receive the protection from the government that helps foster a solid, supportive family that all children are entitled to?

You talked about how it's best to have a mother and a father rather than two parents... but knowing that this option is not available, which would you prefer:

- on the death of one parent, for the child to stay with the only other parent he or she has ever known, or
- on the death of one parent, for the child to be sent off to some uncle grandparent and be cut off from their surviving parent?

If you had read all my posts, you'd know that I was that child. I was raised by my dad.

I don't believe society should send a message that same-sex parenting is equally acceptable to husband and wife parenting. No same-sex couple can produce a child without outside help. This complicates a child's life unnecessarily. They will sometimes seek out or feel some bond to the biological parent who is not in their home. I don't believe the more parents in a child's life, is always the better. Of course, positive role models in a child's life are good, but the optimum is one mom and one dad. Sometimes this doesn't happen due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, as with my childhood. But that's when we just do the best we can, and grandmas, aunts, uncles, etc. do their best to fill in.

 

[Father Heathen]

So what do you suppose they do about that?

actually... Milkmen: Fathers who Breastfeed

*shudders and vomits*

 

[Starfish]

But you haven't seen any gay families, right? So isn't your experience lacking in exactly the information you would most need to form an opinion about gay parenting?

btw, Star, where do you live? Would you like to meet some gay families?

I do know one such family. I'm sure any that you would introduce me to, would be lovely people. I have no doubt of that. That is not what I'm saying. I don't condemn gay couples or fault them for all their good efforts. I just say that children need a mom and a dad, male and female, married and raising the children together. There is no substitution that is quite as good.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I thought of one. Men cannot breastfeed, which is optimum for infants.

Out of curiosity, can women who adopt infants usually breastfeed? I assume that lactation is probably normally linked to pregnancy, but can it be induced with medication or something?

If you had read all my posts, you'd know that I was that child. I was raised by my dad.

I did read that.

I hope I'm not getting too personal, but please do something for me: figure out who your closest relative would have been on your Mom's side of your family. Now, imagine what would have happened if that person had gotten custody of you instead of your Dad. You don't have to post here about it, just picture it in your own head. For extra impact, imagine that this relative wants nothing to do with your father, doesn't want you to have anything to do with him either, and has the legal right to make that happen.

That is one of the situations we're setting up to happen when we deny normal protections to families with same-sex parents.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't believe society should send a message that same-sex parenting is equally acceptable to husband and wife parenting.

Ah but it should, because it is. That's the objective reality, the fact of the matter. You may not like it, but it is.

No same-sex couple can produce a child without outside help. This complicates a child's life unnecessarily. They will sometimes seek out or feel some bond to the biological parent who is not in their home. I don't believe the more parents in a child's life, is always the better. Of course, positive role models in a child's life are good, but the optimum is one mom and one dad. Sometimes this doesn't happen due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, as with my childhood. But that's when we just do the best we can, and grandmas, aunts, uncles, etc. do their best to fill in.

Again, have you talked to any of these kids? Do you know whether this is fact, or just your assumption? How are these kids doing? Are they juvenile delinquents? Are they graduating from high school? Are they becoming teenage parents? Or are they doing just fine?

 

[Starfish]

Out of curiosity, can women who adopt infants usually breastfeed? I assume that lactation is probably normally linked to pregnancy, but can it be induced with medication or something?


I did read that.

I hope I'm not getting too personal, but please do something for me: figure out who your closest relative would have been on your Mom's side of your family. Now, imagine what would have happened if that person had gotten custody of you instead of your Dad. You don't have to post here about it, just picture it in your own head. For extra impact, imagine that this relative wants nothing to do with your father, doesn't want you to have anything to do with him either, and has the legal right to make that happen.

That is one of the situations we're setting up to happen when we deny normal protections to families with same-sex parents.

Don't wills provide for this? When our kids were young, our will said exactly who was to raise them if we died.