LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Autodidact]

I do know one such family. I'm sure any that you would introduce me to, would be lovely people. I have no doubt of that. That is not what I'm saying. I don't condemn gay couples or fault them for all their good efforts. I just say that children need a mom and a dad, male and female, married and raising the children together. There is no substitution that is quite as good.

My point is not that they are lovely people. My point is: are they good parents? How are their kids doing? I know you say that, Star, but it's wrong. That's why you need to stop saying it. Kids don't need a mom and a dad. They do just fine with two moms or two dads. Really. Fact. It's not a substitution; it's a different family model, and it's at least as good, if not better.

 

[Autodidact]

Out of curiosity, can women who adopt infants usually breastfeed? I assume that lactation is probably normally linked to pregnancy, but can it be induced with medication or something?

No. For a while they thought so, but found out it doesn't work. A woman who has lactated once can sometimes induce lactation, but it's so hard on mom and baby that it's not worth it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Don't wills provide for this? When our kids were young, our will said exactly who was to raise our kids if we died.

They can, if a will is in place and valid. If it's not there or if it's struck down for some reason, then you have to rely on the law and the judgement of the court.

 

[Starfish]

Ah but it should, because it is. That's the objective reality, the fact of the matter. You may not like it, but it is. Again, have you talked to any of these kids? Do you know whether this is fact, or just your assumption? How are these kids doing? Are they juvenile delinquents? Are they graduating from high school? Are they becoming teenage parents? Or are they doing just fine?

I saw this on an interview with several adult children of parents who used sperm banks to become pregnant. Some of these people searched for and found their donor "father" and a few even formed a relationship with him. They said that their mothers wanted a baby, but didn't think about that baby as an adult who had feelings, and a need for roots. It was not the origin they would have chosen.

I'm sure this is not the case for all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. For a while they thought so, but found out it doesn't work. A woman who has lactated once can sometimes induce lactation, but it's so hard on mom and baby that it's not worth it.

Okay, thanks.

So, if we're talking about a baby put up for adoption and then adopted by two men, odds are that the child wouldn't be able to be breastfed in any case.

 

[Starfish]

They can, if a will is in place and valid. If it's not there or if it's struck down for some reason, then you have to rely on the law and the judgement of the court.

Well if I were in a gay-parenting relationship, I'd make sure my attorney knew what he/she were doing, when making the will.

Children are torn from parents all the time, whenever there's a divorce. This is devastating to children. We adults do this to them. Maybe we should start a thread on that.

 

[Starfish]

My point is not that they are lovely people. My point is: are they good parents? How are their kids doing? I know you say that, Star, but it's wrong. That's why you need to stop saying it. Kids don't need a mom and a dad. They do just fine with two moms or two dads. Really. Fact. It's not a substitution; it's a different family model, and it's at least as good, if not better.

And I could say the same to you. I don't agree with you. That's why I can't stop saying it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well if I were in a gay-parenting relationship, I'd make sure my attorney knew what he/she were doing, when making the will.

I think that would be a good idea.

However, I also recognize that there are people out there who don't have much money for an attorney and think that one of those home will kits is just as good, only to be proven wrong after they die when it's too late to do anything about it.

I would also worry that regardless of how good my lawyer is, making sure that my kids go to my spouse when I die might be considered a "marriage-like" protection or benefit and get quashed under some current or future law of wherever I happen to be living when I die.

 

[Autodidact]

Okay, thanks.

So, if we're talking about a baby put up for adoption and then adopted by two men, odds are that the child wouldn't be able to be breastfed in any case.

Right. Obviously it's not a big issue; many moms choose not to breastfeed. I was just trying to be helpful, accurate and fair, as always. :run:

 

[Autodidact]

And I could say the same to you. I don't agree with you. That's why I can't stop saying it.

But Starfish, what do you base your opinion on? Not on the facts, that's my point. It is morally and practically wrong to come to a conclusion not based on the facts. To put it more bluntly, it's the difference between TRUE and FALSE. Now it's your perfect right to hold irrational, false opinions. It is not right to apply them to others, or use them as a basis for public policy.

 

[idea]

Children need both moms and dads - that is a fact.

Look at how kids without dads turn out:
glennsacks.com | Why Dads Matter

The rates of the four major youth pathologies--teen pregnancy, teen drug abuse, school dropouts and juvenile crime--are tightly correlated with fatherlessness, often more so than with any other socioeconomic factor.
For example, according to a long-term study conducted in the United States and in New Zealand and published in Child Development, a father’s absence greatly increases the risk of teen pregnancy. The study found that it mattered little whether the child was rich or poor, black or white, born to a teen mother or an adult mother, or raised by parents with functional or dysfunctional marriages. What mattered was dad.

Do you deny that a heterosexual female child yearns for attention from the opposite sex? That is what heterosexual means - they seek loving relashonships with people of the opposite sex - are you familiar with what heterosexuals are? You say some are only attracted to people of the same sex - great - good for them - others ARE NOT THAT WAY INCLUDING CHILREN! Others need attention from the opposite sex - just as some need attention from the same sex. WHEN THEY DON'T GET THE ATTENTION THEY NEED FROM THE SEX THEY NEED IT FROM THEY HAVE PROBLEMS. Children without moms and dads seek that attention in unhealthy relashonships. THAT IS A FACT!!!

A HETEROSEXUAL -
Heterosexuality - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heterosexual people love people (sexually and romantically) of the opposite sex. A heterosexual man loves women. A heterosexual woman loves men. Another less formal word for heterosexual is straight.
Heterosexual is seen as different from homosexuality, bisexuality or asexuality. Most people describe themselves as heterosexual.

Unless a child can be confirmed homosexual - they are going to want attention from THE OPPOSITE SEX!!! And you cannot confirm if they are homo or not untell they are pretty old.

PLEAESE - UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS OF HETEROSEXUALS AND HETEROSEXUAL CHILDREN!!!

ps - homosexual child raised by hetero parents will not run into this problem - they will get attention from whichever sex they need it from as both a male and female are present.

 

[Riverwolf]

Of course. Therefore I'll add:
All good dads teach their children what a real man is.

Now, I'm insulted.

When I think of "real man," I think of those jocks who are the size of boulders and have the brains of a stick, and are always being massaged by women with pumpkin-sized breasts.

The definition of "real man" is different for everybody. I think the concept alone is just stupid. You can disagree with me on that, but that's my stance. Boys and men should just be whomever they choose to be, individually, and not based on what a group of people think. That's the adult equivalent in my opinion of so-called "peer pressure."

 

[idea]

Any homosexuals out there - would you be offened if we tried to tell you to only have relashonships with the opposite sex?

All of us heterosexuals are offended when you try to tell us "we will be fine with relashonships of the same sex"

You need the same sex - great - go for it.

WE NEED THE OPPOSITE SEX - this includes children, heterosexual children need attention from the opposite sex - either they get heathly attention from their parents, or they get unhealthy attention from where they can find it.

GLBT's can be great friends, but there are some needs they cannot fullfill for heterosexual children.

It is offensive to heterosexuals when you claim we do not need others from the opposite sex. If we don't need people form the opposite sex, then you don't need people of the same sex. How is that.

I am insulted.

to ask a heterosexual child to go without a mom or a dad is the same as asking a heterosexual person to go without a spouse, or to change the type of sex they are attracted to. WE ARE NATURALLY ATTRACTED TO A SPECIFIC SEX TOO - CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??????

 

[Riverwolf]

Children need both moms and dads - that is a fact.

Look at how kids without dads turn out:
glennsacks.com | Why Dads Matter

The rates of the four major youth pathologies--teen pregnancy, teen drug abuse, school dropouts and juvenile crime--are tightly correlated with fatherlessness, often more so than with any other socioeconomic factor.
For example, according to a long-term study conducted in the United States and in New Zealand and published in Child Development, a father’s absence greatly increases the risk of teen pregnancy. The study found that it mattered little whether the child was rich or poor, black or white, born to a teen mother or an adult mother, or raised by parents with functional or dysfunctional marriages. What mattered was dad.

Do you deny that a heterosexual female child yearns for attention from the opposite sex? That is what heterosexual means - they seek loving relashonships with people of the opposite sex - are you familiar with what heterosexuals are? You say some are only attracted to people of the same sex - great - good for them - others ARE NOT THAT WAY INCLUDING CHILREN! Others need attention from the opposite sex - just as some need attention from the same sex. WHEN THEY DON'T GET THE ATTENTION THEY NEED FROM THE SEX THEY NEED IT FROM THEY HAVE PROBLEMS. Children without moms and dads seek that attention in unhealthy relashonships. THAT IS A FACT!!!

A HETEROSEXUAL -
Heterosexuality - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heterosexual people love people (sexually and romantically) of the opposite sex. A heterosexual man loves women. A heterosexual woman loves men. Another less formal word for heterosexual is straight.
Heterosexual is seen as different from homosexuality, bisexuality or asexuality. Most people describe themselves as heterosexual.

Unless a child can be confirmed homosexual - they are going to want attention from THE OPPOSITE SEX!!! And you cannot confirm if they are homo or not untell they are pretty old.

PLEAESE - UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS OF HETEROSEXUALS AND HETEROSEXUAL CHILDREN!!!

ps - homosexual child raised by hetero parents will not run into this problem - they will get attention from whichever sex they need it from as both a male and female are present.

A non-passionate way of talking about that is what Freud called the Oedipus Complex. (there is a female equivalent of a different name, but I don't know what it is) For an infant or toddler, there is truth to it. But once the child grows up, it's not the case anymore.

It wasn't the absence of "daddy" that lead to those choices; it was the ignorance of mommy to not educate their daughters on what to do. I once knew an adolescent girl who didn't have a father, and while she wasn't exactly the most polite girl in the world, I wouldn't say she had problems. She was doing just fine, from what I observed. Granted, I didn't see her much, but I do know that she was separate from the society girls, the ones most likely to get into things like teen-pregnancy and whatnot. And many of those girls also had dads. So, sorry, that study was flawed. You'll have to do better than that.

And wikipedia is, to put it mildly, not the best source of credible information in the world.

 

[Father Heathen]

Any homosexuals out there - would you be offened if we tried to tell you to only have relashonships with the opposite sex?

That's what you are saying.

All of us heterosexuals are offended when you try to tell us "we will be fine with relashonships of the same sex"

We are? Why would we heterosexuals be offended by the fact homosexuality suits others?

It is offensive to heterosexuals when you claim we do not need others from the opposite sex.

I've never heard any homosexual say that.

 

[Autodidact]

Children need both moms and dads - that is a fact.

No, it isn't. It's the opposite of a fact.

Look at how kids without dads turn out:
glennsacks.com | Why Dads Matter

The rates of the four major youth pathologies--teen pregnancy, teen drug abuse, school dropouts and juvenile crime--are tightly correlated with fatherlessness, often more so than with any other socioeconomic factor.
For example, according to a long-term study conducted in the United States and in New Zealand and published in Child Development, a father’s absence greatly increases the risk of teen pregnancy. The study found that it mattered little whether the child was rich or poor, black or white, born to a teen mother or an adult mother, or raised by parents with functional or dysfunctional marriages. What mattered was dad.

This is what I mean, idea, by being fundamentally dishonest. You take children of one-parent families, and use that data to smear good parenting by gay families, which has nothing to do with these single heterosexual parents.

I'll just invite everyone else in the thread to see what dishonesty a real opponent of gay parenting has to resort to.

Do you deny that a heterosexual female child yearns for attention from the opposite sex? That is what heterosexual means - they seek loving relashonships with people of the opposite sex - are you familiar with what heterosexuals are? You say some are only attracted to people of the same sex - great - good for them - others ARE NOT THAT WAY INCLUDING CHILREN! Others need attention from the opposite sex - just as some need attention from the same sex. WHEN THEY DON'T GET THE ATTENTION THEY NEED FROM THE SEX THEY NEED IT FROM THEY HAVE PROBLEMS. Children without moms and dads seek that attention in unhealthy relashonships. THAT IS A FACT!!!

A HETEROSEXUAL -
Heterosexuality - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heterosexual people love people (sexually and romantically) of the opposite sex. A heterosexual man loves women. A heterosexual woman loves men. Another less formal word for heterosexual is straight.
Heterosexual is seen as different from homosexuality, bisexuality or asexuality. Most people describe themselves as heterosexual.

Unless a child can be confirmed homosexual - they are going to want attention from THE OPPOSITE SEX!!! And you cannot confirm if they are homo or not untell they are pretty old.

PLEAESE - UNDERSTAND THE NEEDS OF HETEROSEXUALS AND HETEROSEXUAL CHILDREN!!!

ps - homosexual child raised by hetero parents will not run into this problem - they will get attention from whichever sex they need it from as both a male and female are present.

Ew. Yes, I certainly am denying that. That's yucky. Kids need parenting, period, not "attention from the opposite sex." That's pretty screwed up, idea.

There are no homosexual or heterosexual children until adolescence.

I understand the needs of heterosexual adolescents just fine, idea, I have two of them. They're doing great, and are not suffering for lack of attention from the opposite sex.

Have you ever been treated for any form of psychological instability?

 

[Starfish]

Now, I'm insulted.

When I think of "real man," I think of those jocks who are the size of boulders and have the brains of a stick, and are always being massaged by women with pumpkin-sized breasts.

The definition of "real man" is different for everybody. I think the concept alone is just stupid. You can disagree with me on that, but that's my stance. Boys and men should just be whomever they choose to be, individually, and not based on what a group of people think. That's the adult equivalent in my opinion of so-called "peer pressure."

My definition of a real man has nothing to do with his physical strength, or body size. It's in his legacy.

 

[idea]

A non-passionate way of talking about that is what Freud called the Oedipus Complex. (there is a female equivalent of a different name, but I don't know what it is) For an infant or toddler, there is truth to it. But once the child grows up, it's not the case anymore.

It wasn't the absence of "daddy" that lead to those choices; it was the ignorance of mommy to not educate their daughters on what to do. I once knew an adolescent girl who didn't have a father, and while she wasn't exactly the most polite girl in the world, I wouldn't say she had problems. She was doing just fine, from what I observed. Granted, I didn't see her much, but I do know that she was separate from the society girls, the ones most likely to get into things like teen-pregnancy and whatnot. And many of those girls also had dads. So, sorry, that study was flawed. You'll have to do better than that.

And wikipedia is, to put it mildly, not the best source of credible information in the world.

nICE REF - YOU HAVE A PERSON YOU KIND OF SORT OF KNOW WHO DID NOT HAVE A FATHER.

My mom is a social worker and dealss with hundreds of thousands of fatherless kids. There are hundreds of reports that document the emotional and even physical problems kids without fathers have - visa versa for hetero boys and mothers.

If you want to raise heterosexual kids (majority are) you need to understand their needs. Selfish of you to impose your beliefs and needs onto them.

 

[Autodidact]

Any homosexuals out there - would you be offened if we tried to tell you to only have relashonships with the opposite sex?

Yes, but no one in this thread is saying that to heterosexuals.

All of us heterosexuals are offended when you try to tell us "we will be fine with relashonships of the same sex"

No one is saying that. I'm serious, are you nuts? Where are you getting this stuff?

You need the same sex - great - go for it.

WE NEED THE OPPOSITE SEX - this includes children, heterosexual children need attention from the opposite sex - either they get heathly attention from their parents, or they get unhealthy attention from where they can find it.

No, they don't.

GLBT's can be great friends, but there are some needs they cannot fullfill for heterosexual children.

Really? Like what?

It is offensive to heterosexuals when you claim we do not need others from the opposite sex. If we don't need people form the opposite sex, then you don't need people of the same sex. How is that.

Kids need relationships with parents. It doesn't matter what sex they are, as long as they are good parents. FACT.

I am insulted.

Well, what can I say, if you enjoy being insulted, then make one up in this thread. You're good at denying reality.

to ask a heterosexual child to go without a mom or a dad is the same as asking a heterosexual person to go without a spouse, or to change the type of sex they are attracted to. WE ARE NATURALLY ATTRACTED TO A SPECIFIC SEX TOO - CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT??????

Uh, right. *steps away slowly and quietly, being careful not to disturb this individual, who has obviously lost whatever tenuous contact with reality he once had.*

 

[Autodidact]

nICE REF - YOU HAVE A PERSON YOU KIND OF SORT OF KNOW WHO DID NOT HAVE A FATHER.

My mom is a social worker and dealss with hundreds of thousands of fatherless kids. There are hundreds of reports that document the emotional and even physical problems kids without fathers have - visa versa for hetero boys and mothers.

Let me guess--every single one has heterosexual parents, am I right?

Tell me, does you mom have any in her caseload of gay parents?