LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Riverwolf]

I don't think it's fair to the child to deliberately set them up to be raised w/o a mom or dad, or in any single-parent sitation.

Is anything in the real world "fair"?

 

[idea]

What the hell are you babbling incoherently on about? But nobody is doing that. Nobody is forcing anything on children.

LG parents are forcing kids away from a mom or a dad. telling them "you don't need a mom" or "you don't need a dad"

Is anything in the real world "fair"?

Yes, some things are fair. Better to support what is fair than what is not.
Would you support something that is not fair?

Idea, no one is going to take your children away from you. Is that what you're afraid of?

And those "girly things" you mentioned, like doing hair, are not necessary. My GF doesn't do that, any more than I do, and I have hair about as long as she does. She doesn't use makeup, doesn't wear dresses much, heck, she buys mens' clothes because they're more comfortable. She's perfectly comfortable being that way. She was raised by both a father and a mother.

If I end up being a single father to a young daughter, I will help her through puberty as much as I can, but obviously there are things I won't be able to do, like teaching her how to use a tampon, for example. But it's not like there won't be anyone in the world who can't teach that. By the time she reaches that age, I will trust her friends to help her with that. Grown women probably don't remember what it was like going through puberty, but teens all are going through it together, and I think they should help each other, with us adults guiding them, but not by any means holding their hands, because they're no longer children by that point. And up to that point, there is no difference between a boy and girl. They look the same, sound the same, and talk the same. All the differences are "forced" upon them when they are young, such as girls wear dresses and play with barbie dolls, and boys wear pants and play with G.I. Joe action figures. None of that is natural. Now, as a child, I was very much a "growing macho-man" as I loved Power Rangers, and big things like that, and didn't like girls. I was like all the others, save for the fact that I was alone a lot and a magnet for bullies. (I'm a little autistic) But when I grew up, I became more feminine. And I like that. Okay, I'm getting a bit off track, but the point is, girls only need their moms if they are girly girls who do girly things. So that argument was not very convincing.

The point is, you don't have to agree with same-sex marriage, but don't deny them the same rights as everyone else. All the "problems" you think will happen because of it is, I'm sorry, paranoia. Those studies are paranoid by their nature, and have bias conclusions because of it. Just because a scientific study was conducted and a scientific conclusion was reached, doesn't mean at all that it is a scientific fact. The facts of the study could have been exaggerated, reworked, or simply not done with any care.

A strange thing happens to you when you become a parent. Stories on the news upset you more, it does not matter whose kid it is... there is some kind of fierce protective thing - like a mother bear for her cub or something - only as a parent do you understand what it means to be responsible for another human life, you understand how fragile kids are... your GF may have short hair, but how about your daughter? what if she wants long hair? You will have tolearn how to braid etc...

actually, boys and girls behave very differently - many studies on this too, and it comes out very early, before they talk.

are you familiar with this sad story?
NASSPE: Research > David Reimer: the boy who was raised as a girl
tried to raise a little boy as a girl... turned this little baby boy into a girl, ... so sad
The truth turned out to be very nearly the opposite of what Dr. Money had reported. Far from an effortless transformation from male to female, Brenda/Bruce had fought the assignment to the female gender -- even though "she" had not been informed of the truth of "her" sexual identity. As a small child, "Brenda" tore off the frilly dresses her mother made. She insisted on rolling in the mud with the other boys. She stomped on the dolls that relatives gave as presents.

As far as I knew, Brenda was a girl -- physically. But from everything that she did and said, she indicated that she didn't want to be a girl. .... I myself was a tomboy, but I never wanted to be a boy. Brenda did.

She walked like a guy. Sat with her legs apart. She talked about guy things, didn't give a crap about cleaning house, getting married, wearing makeup. We both wanted to play with guys, build forts and have snowball fights and play army. She'd get a skipping rope for a gift, and the only thing we'd use that for was to tie people up, whip people with it. She played with my toys: Tinkertoys, dump trucks. This toy sewing machine she got just sat.

again, boys and girls are different, moms and dads are different... they messed this poor kid up so bad.

 

[Apex]

Needless to say I'm not familiar with threads in LDS-only fora. It would have been nice to see such rebukes here in this thread. We're on p. 46. The gay-proponents have been verbally smacked for calling Mormons immoral, but no Mormon has told another Mormon that stereotyping and denigrating gay people is wrong.

Just because it was not said in this exact thread means nothing. It has been said other places to the correct people.

 

[Starfish]

Is anything in the real world "fair"?

No, but we still need to do our best. Especially when it comes to children.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So now you are an expert on who I am attracted to? I am attracted to my male husband - that is who I am attracted to, just FYI.

You are personalising things. I am not an expert on what you are attracted to and it really does not matter to anyone but yourself and your husband.

tolerance is different than pandering and supporting them with tax dollars, giving them our children to raise.

Gay people pay taxes too. Children should be raised by their parents ideally. If an orphan needs a family, they should be given to the most qualified couple that applies. Would you rather let a child be raised by two gay doctors or a married couple with one man and one woman living in a trailer on welfare?

should we allow people to legally marry animals? knotholes? as you put it?

You missed my point, your sexual preference has nothing to do with anything. If it did, then you have addressed what would be wrong with following your conclusion. I never said we should go down that road.

People can do what they want and I will not stop them if it does not hurt others. Forcing everyone to pay for it and support it, foring it into school education, is hurting others.

Yes, this is where I agree with you. Public schools are indoctrinating folks to think like they do. A great school teaches kids to think, not what to think. :yes:

 

[Starfish]

If I end up being a single father to a young daughter, I will help her through puberty as much as I can, but obviously there are things I won't be able to do, like teaching her how to use a tampon, for example. But it's not like there won't be anyone in the world who can't teach that. By the time she reaches that age, I will trust her friends to help her with that. Grown women probably don't remember what it was like going through puberty,

I'm 53 and I remember it like it was yesterday. I didn't have a mom to help me through it. Not fun, to say the least. Even though my dad would have done anything for me, I was too embarrassed to ask him.

I was so glad that I was there for my daughter, when she went through it.

 

[Sunstone]

I am staunchly opposed to gays adopting kids on the grounds that the government won't let me adopt a goat so why should the government let gays adopt goats? It's just not fair gays should be able to adopt kids and not me. Am I the only one upset by this?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, some things are fair. Better to support what is fair than what is not.

And if you think something isn't fair, better to make the families involved suffer as much as possible. :sarcastic

 

[Autodidact]

Kids needs moms and dads. That is a fact.

No, it's not. It's an opinion, and an incorrect one not based on actual studies.

idea: Why do you think you can't find a single study that says that kids of gay families do worse in any way than kids of straight parents?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Raising a child that does not realise that life is not fair would be doing them a great disservice.

I see so many children who have every advantage in life that may be in for a rude awakening in adulthood.

 

[Autodidact]

I found this helpful.
Why Children Need Father-Love and Mother-Love, Part 1

what is helpful, and the only thing that is helpful, is studies that compare gay families to straight families. And guess what, we have them. And guess what they show. This guy's opinion is wrong.

Starfish: citing Focus on the Family, or the Family Research Council, or NARTH, is the functional equivalent of citing a Christian anti-Mormon cite to learn about Mormons. It's anti-gay propaganda. Can you cite a study from an actual social scientist?

And btw, Paul Cameron isn't one. He was kicked out of the professional organization for, guess what, lying about gay people.

 

[Autodidact]

Exactly - would you tell a hetero adult "you don't need attention from the oppoite sex"? Would you tell me all I need are girlfriends - that girlfriends will fullfill all of my needs? I hope not, don't force that on kids either.

All children are "forced" to grow up with the parents they have. cuz they're kids. If you raise your kids without grandparents in the home (a traditional model) are you "forcing" them to fulfill all their needs with people of the same age?

The FACTS are that kids need parenting. Period.

 

[Autodidact]

All children are created by a male and a female. To take a child away from their parent is cruel.

Would you say "Your dad's a test tube"

or "you don't have a dad - you have a mom?"

would you take a child away from their parent?

Oh please, you are so ridiculous. Give me a break. No ones taking their kids away from their parents except the people who oppose gay parenting. Do adoptive parents take their kids away from their biological parents? Your parents are the people who parent you.

 

[Autodidact]

Hey Rick, I wanted to Frubal you but I must love you too much as the system wouldn't let me. Here's a virtual kiss instead::hugkiss:

 

[Autodidact]

I agree with you on the test of parenthood. But the child might not agree. Many seek out their bio-parent--something I do, and don't, totally understand.

Of the many gay families that I know, I have never seen this be an issue or problem. Oh, there I go with that pesky reality thing again.

 

[Autodidact]

tolerance is different than pandering and supporting them with tax dollars, giving them our children to raise.

Are you concerned that someone is going to give me your children to raise?!?!:areyoucra

should we allow people to legally marry animals?

No.

People can do what they want and I will not stop them if it does not hurt others. Forcing everyone to pay for it and support it, foring it into school education, is hurting others.

But I suppose it's O.K. to force me to pay for your kids? And their education? Does that sound fair to you?

 

[Autodidact]

yes, there are many great adopted parents. Do you think it would be right to have a child specifically to adopt them out though? accident vs meditated? I guess that is another sub... adopted kids are already going to have some questions etc... best to put them in the safest most balanced environ possible - one with a mom and dad. They have enough to deal with without having to add on LG step-parents.

But it's not the safest environment possible. That is a LIE. Please stop lying. Didn't anyone ever tell you that it's wrong to tell lies about other people? It wrong and harmful. Did I mention that it's wrong? How would you like it if people went around claiming that Mormons are bad parents, that it's O.K. if there's no other possibility, but it's really better to raise kids in a Christian home, because Mormons are all polygamists who kick their kids out of the house and give their young daughters in marriage to old men with 30 wives. Wouldn't that bother you? How about if they wanted to base public policies on lies about you and your family?

 

[Autodidact]

I don't think it's fair to the child to deliberately set them up to be raised w/o a mom or dad, or in any single-parent situation.

It's not a single-parent situation. Why isn't it fair? Does it harm them in some way? What?

I don't think it's fair that your kids have only one mom. They're deprived. They deserve two moms, since that's what's best for kids. I believe it's bad for kids to only have one mom. Sure, it's O.K. if it happens that way, but to deliberately deprive them of two moms when that's available is wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

LG parents are forcing kids away from a mom or a dad. telling them "you don't need a mom" or "you don't need a dad"

And you're forcing your kids to only have one mom, telling them "you only need one mom."

Yes, some things are fair. Better to support what is fair than what is not.
Would you support something that is not fair?

No, that's why I oppose your position; it's not fair.

actually, boys and girls behave very differently - many studies on this too, and it comes out very early, before they talk.

I agree.

are you familiar with this sad story?
NASSPE: Research > David Reimer: the boy who was raised as a girl
tried to raise a little boy as a girl... turned this little baby boy into a girl, ... so sad
The truth turned out to be very nearly the opposite of what Dr. Money had reported. Far from an effortless transformation from male to female, Brenda/Bruce had fought the assignment to the female gender -- even though "she" had not been informed of the truth of "her" sexual identity. As a small child, "Brenda" tore off the frilly dresses her mother made. She insisted on rolling in the mud with the other boys. She stomped on the dolls that relatives gave as presents.

As far as I knew, Brenda was a girl -- physically. But from everything that she did and said, she indicated that she didn't want to be a girl. .... I myself was a tomboy, but I never wanted to be a boy. Brenda did.

She walked like a guy. Sat with her legs apart. She talked about guy things, didn't give a crap about cleaning house, getting married, wearing makeup. We both wanted to play with guys, build forts and have snowball fights and play army. She'd get a skipping rope for a gift, and the only thing we'd use that for was to tie people up, whip people with it. She played with my toys: Tinkertoys, dump trucks. This toy sewing machine she got just sat.

again, boys and girls are different, moms and dads are different... they messed this poor kid up so bad.

Yes, I read the book, and agree completely. Dr. Money was completely wrong, like you. His position was not based on the facts, like you. They really harmed that little boy, trying to make him into something he wasn't. It's a fascinating book, and I recommend it highly. Good reading. Nothing to do with this discussion, but very interesting. It's clear that boys and girls are different from birth, and that gender is not just a social construct, as some would have had us believe. What's important, in that case as in this, is truth.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm 53 and I remember it like it was yesterday. I didn't have a mom to help me through it. Not fun, to say the least. Even though my dad would have done anything for me, I was too embarrassed to ask him.

I was so glad that I was there for my daughter, when she went through it.

Me too, Starfish, my mom died when I was 9. It was horrible.

Did you know that for some kids, when their bio mom dies, they get taken away from their only living parent and placed with strangers, due to anti-gay parenting discrimination and lack of laws to protect the family?