LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[emiliano]

Hmmm, isn't all scripture of God to you? O.K. I'll help you out. It's in Levitucus 18. This is what we call moving the goalposts. I never said that the Bible specifically authorizes this, (unlike, say, slavery, which it does) but that it is not prohibited. Are you trying to argue that everything not specifically authorized in the Bible is immoral? O.K., but don't use your computer to do it, it's not authorized. It's now time for you to agree or appear dishonest. Maybe you're thinking of some other book? You're really reaching now. The Biblical model for female love would be
"Entreat me not to leave you, or to turn back from following you; For wherever you go, I will go; And wherever you lodge, I will lodge; Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God. Where you die, I will die, and there will I be buried. The LORD do so to me, and more also, if anything but death parts you and me." (Ruth 1:16-17 NKJV)
I realize that you enjoy hallucinating this, but you're just substituting your base prejudice for God's actual words, because it's not. If you say that God prohibits lesbianism, you're lying about God. And we have a word for that, emiliano, and it's not a nice one.
Stats? Point?
Why would it be important to me? I'm neither Christian nor heterosexual. It's supposed to be important to you and your brother and sister Christians. Any idea why it isn't? How about sheer hypocricy?

Here I'll make it easy for you to do the right thing, or show us that you have no integrity. Either cite the verse where it's prohibited, admit that it's not, or demonstrate your utter lack of integrity. Or, I suppose a fourth choice would be to flee the thread, which is pretty much the same as #3.

I see, may I direct yo to the fact that this are instruction/command addressed to the males of the tribes. Lev 18:2 Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, I am Jehovah your God.
I told you before that the OT is concerned with instructing the men, men were made responsible for the action of their females, they were to instruct them none of them would say that Lesbianism is ok. How does Leviticus 18 shows that Lesbianism is ok? It doesn’t even mention women, your interpretation is really a stretch of imagination. It just does not addressed them.
My answer is yes, if the Bible does not authorise an action it is immoral and harmful (evil)to do it.
And Auto, the Ruth 1:16 quote does not contain even a hint of any sex between the women. Get help please, what suggest to you that these women engaged in any sexual activity?
Auto it is hard for me to understand why you want to use the Bible and Christianity tenets in your debating, and how does this last post of your fits in the moving the goalpost stakes?
Auto I’ll warn you not to get up close and personal with me, you may regret it.
I have no problem discussing scriptures with people and if you wish to continue, refrain from personal attacks. I love the scriptures they teach so clearly.

 

[fantome profane]

My answer is yes, if the Bible does not authorise an action it is immoral and harmful (evil)to do it.

Would you please direct me to the Bible verses that you would interpret to be authorizing the following actions.

1. Driving a car
2. Making a sandwich
3. Farting
4. Posting a question on Religious Forums.com

I have done all these actions today and I can’t find anything in the bible that would authorize them, so I would like to know if they immoral and harmful.

Thank you.

 

[painted wolf]

so Emiliano,

Do you abstain from shellfish? Make sure your wife wears a scarf or hat in church? What is your stance on polyester-cotton or cotton-wool blend clothing?
The bible is filled with warnings about things that are 'abomination'. How many do you actually follow?

wa:do

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My answer is yes, if the Bible does not authorise an action it is immoral and harmful (evil)to do it.

The Bible very emphatically authorizes (IMO commands) people to follow the promptings of love.

 

[Autodidact]

I see, may I direct yo to the fact that this are instruction/command addressed to the males of the tribes. Lev 18:2 Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, I am Jehovah your God.
I told you before that the OT is concerned with instructing the men, men were made responsible for the action of their females, they were to instruct them none of them would say that Lesbianism is ok. How does Leviticus 18 shows that Lesbianism is ok? It doesn’t even mention women, your interpretation is really a stretch of imagination. It just does not addressed them.

Exactly. This is what I have been saying. The topic is never mentioned.
My answer is yes, if the Bible does not authorise an action it is immoral and harmful (evil)to do it.

Well for heaven's sakes stop typing. I'm sure you will not find any authorization for you to either use your computer or type anywhere in the Bible! In fact, what did you eat for breakfast? Did you check for Biblical authorization? Do you drive a car? Where's that authorized?

And Auto, the Ruth 1:16 quote does not contain even a hint of any sex between the women. Get help please, what suggest to you that these women engaged in any sexual activity?

It's not about sex, emil, it's about love. And if you organize your life right, then your sex is an expression of love--at least, mine is.

Auto it is hard for me to understand why you want to use the Bible and Christianity tenets in your debating, and how does this last post of your fits in the moving the goalpost stakes?

It doesn't. I have said the same simple, factual thing from the beginning. The Christian Bible does not prohibit lesbianism. Fact.

Auto I’ll warn you not to get up close and personal with me, you may regret it.
I have no problem discussing scriptures with people and if you wish to continue, refrain from personal attacks. I love the scriptures they teach so clearly.

I see. You chose to forego your integrity, rather than admit you're wrong. Well, that doesn't surprise me; it's what most Christians do in this situation.

 

[emiliano]

Would you please direct me to the Bible verses that you would interpret to be authorizing the following actions.

1. Driving a car
2. Making a sandwich
3. Farting
4. Posting a question on Religious Forums.com

I have done all these actions today and I can’t find anything in the bible that would authorize them, so I would like to know if they immoral and harmful.

Thank you.

Let see, I am thinking on driving a car, I would go to the good book and ask, what good will this bring to others and me? How should a go about? The good book answers, you have to learn to drive so that you do not do harm to other, you must also obey all rules, statutes and regulations, as yo know there are people that drive without a licence, other drive under the influence of drug and alcohol, these don’t obey the good book and they have not applied it wisdom, the book yes you can drive a car under the following conditions........, if I fail to obtain a licence to drive, it would say to me that I am not authorised to drive a car, if I cannot gather enough money to buy a car, there is a message in that as well, if everything goes without a glitch, there is also a clear message “you are authorised”.
Now one is born male or female and there is a clear message in that as well. Now am thinking on getting married and procreate, the good book has clear instructions on how I must go about this as well, what good book is it!

 

[emiliano]

so Emiliano,

Do you abstain from shellfish? Make sure your wife wears a scarf or hat in church? What is your stance on polyester-cotton or cotton-wool blend clothing?
The bible is filled with warnings about things that are 'abomination'. How many do you actually follow?

wa:do

This are all (613 statutes and regulations) instructions to the ancient Israelites to live by in the promised land, land from which they were exiled by divine command, to stay in exile till God Himself gathers them, we are under a new covenant, we are under Grace (unmerited favour) we are not bounded by all of these statutes and regulations. we a bounded by two commandment.
Act 10:15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time, What God has made clean, you do not call common.

 

[emiliano]

This is circular, but it is the only answer that I can give you, Lesbianism according to Christian tenets is a sin that leads to spiritual death, it is no a lesser sin than homosexuality. Whenever we Christian are consulted in these issues by plebiscite we do in accordance to our religious tenets, these tenets are inseparable from our being, Paul is the apostle that wrote most of the Church organisational rules, he wrote them under divine inspiration, he is the Apostle (sent) to the nations and is clear about these unnatural behaviour and their consequences.

 

[gnomon]

This is circular, but it is the only answer that I can give you, Lesbianism according to Christian tenets is a sin that leads to spiritual death, it is no a lesser sin than homosexuality. Whenever we Christian are consulted in these issues by plebiscite we do in accordance to our religious tenets, these tenets are inseparable from our being, Paul is the apostle that wrote most of the Church organisational rules, he wrote them under divine inspiration, he is the Apostle (sent) to the nations and is clear about these unnatural behaviour and their consequences.

Yet not all Christians adhere to any such thing.

Funny that.

 

[Autodidact]

Let see, I am thinking on driving a car, I would go to the good book and ask, what good will this bring to others and me? How should a go about? The good book answers, you have to learn to drive so that you do not do harm to other, you must also obey all rules, statutes and regulations, as yo know there are people that drive without a licence, other drive under the influence of drug and alcohol, these don’t obey the good book and they have not applied it wisdom, the book yes you can drive a car under the following conditions........, if I fail to obtain a licence to drive, it would say to me that I am not authorised to drive a car, if I cannot gather enough money to buy a car, there is a message in that as well, if everything goes without a glitch, there is also a clear message “you are authorised”.
Now one is born male or female and there is a clear message in that as well. Now am thinking on getting married and procreate, the good book has clear instructions on how I must go about this as well, what good book is it!

Exactly, now you're using logic, although you're contradicting what you said. Now I'm thinking, I love another woman, and I go to your Bible, and it tells me that love is what matters, that we should love one another, and that there is nothing wrong with this love. It also tells me to do not do unto others what I would not have done to me--and you might want to adopt that policy.

 

[Autodidact]

This is circular, but it is the only answer that I can give you, Lesbianism according to Christian tenets is a sin that leads to spiritual death, it is no a lesser sin than homosexuality. Whenever we Christian are consulted in these issues by plebiscite we do in accordance to our religious tenets, these tenets are inseparable from our being, Paul is the apostle that wrote most of the Church organisational rules, he wrote them under divine inspiration, he is the Apostle (sent) to the nations and is clear about these unnatural behaviour and their consequences.

No emiliano, those are not Christian tenets. Those are your tenets, which you are calling Christian for our convenience.

 

[DallasApple]

Far from crystal clear, IMO. The Bible's not so keen about lust generally. I'm sure you could find plenty of passages where heterosexual lust is condemned, but that doesn't mean that heterosexuality in general is condemned as well.

I think to take that passage as a blanket prohibition on lesbianism, you have to first decide that romantic love between two women must only be lust and not "real love", which is a baseless (and, IMO, untrue) assumption found nowhere in the Bible.

To me it doesnt sound like its written to be only about being lustful..It said the men and the women turned from the "natural use"..

That sounds more like they are talking about specific sexaul acts..that were considered "unatural"......or not a "natural" way to have sex...

If you assume these are sexual acts beign performed man on man and woman on woman..Then I can use my "imagination" as to what is being considered unatural..And if that is sinful in nature...Then that would mean its sinful in nature for heteros as well to engage in any of those same sexual practices with one another...

Why do heteros get a free pass????

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

change the natural use into that which is against nature:

See??? The natural "use"..IOW in my mind this means to me that they were "using" their bodies in ways that werent considered natural?...It seems to me thats not about them beign same sex..its about the actual sexual acts themselves...

Love

Dallas

 

[Sententia]

See??? The natural "use"..IOW in my mind this means to me that they were "using" their bodies in ways that werent considered natural?...It seems to me thats not about them beign same sex..its about the actual sexual acts themselves...

Love

Dallas

Does natural mean sex purely for procreation behind closed doors where no one else can see or hear in the missionary format only with your married partner of the opposite sex but of the same religion and of the correct age with a requirement of circumcision for the male partner? Are theire racial restrictions or height and weight requirements? Would a dwarf and the worlds tallest man having sex still be considered natural if they met all these requirements?

 

[DallasApple]

Does natural mean sex purely for procreation behind closed doors where no one else can see or hear in the missionary format only with your married partner of the opposite sex but of the same religion and of the correct age with a requirement of circumcision for the male partner? Are theire racial restrictions or height and weight requirements? Would a dwarf and the worlds tallest man having sex still be considered natural if they met all these requirements?

Yes..I think thats what "natural" was considered...

They were "using" their sex organs in "unatural" ways..And heterosexual people dont do things like that ya know?..Its a "misuse" of your penis and your vagina..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Does natural mean sex purely for procreation behind closed doors where no one else can see or hear in the missionary format only with your married partner of the opposite sex but of the same religion and of the correct age with a requirement of circumcision for the male partner?

Oh and you forgot..the man cant touch the woman when she is on her period..and for like a week afterwards..(thus keeping him clean..and ironcially putting her at her most fertile time)...OH and you cant have sex on religious observation days....

So if you put it all together..There are only like 40 days out of the year you can have God sanctioned sex..

We are still undecided about masturbation as well..But its looking like that could be a sin too..

Love

Dallas

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Exactly, now you're using logic, although you're contradicting what you said. Now I'm thinking, I love another woman, and I go to your Bible, and it tells me that love is what matters, that we should love one another, and that there is nothing wrong with this love. It also tells me to do not do unto others what I would not have done to me--and you might want to adopt that policy.

Do you not appreciate, though, that there are many different types of love? When the Bible commands we must love our neighbours, I do not think of it as implying I should have a sexual love for them, rather a friendship and a spirit of charity. I have family and friends who I hold closely enough to consider that I love them, but there is no spirit of eros there.

Therefore to claim that a command to (and the condoning of) love is condoning eroticism is misguided.

 

[emiliano]

Yet not all Christians adhere to any such thing.

Funny that.

Wrongo my dear fellow! If one does not adhere to Christian doctrines (Mostly Paul’s) one ceases to be a Christian, a donkey may dream to became a race horse, but it can only dream of it, Christians are those that follow Christian doctrines.

 

[emiliano]

Exactly, now you're using logic, although you're contradicting what you said. Now I'm thinking, I love another woman, and I go to your Bible, and it tells me that love is what matters, that we should love one another, and that there is nothing wrong with this love. It also tells me to do not do unto others what I would not have done to me--and you might want to adopt that policy.

Now Auto this can go on forever, you went to the Tanach/ Pentateuch/Old Testament which is the part of the Bible that narrated God’s dealings with the ancient Israelite, the numerous corrections that end up in their exile, thus the land where these statutes and regulation will be applied is still at hand (been prepared) to be in it we you need to repent and change.
“Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” The women in Ruth did not get married, did they? The reason is simple the love of these women felt for each other was a different kind of love, the love of a daughter for her mother , and the love of a mother for her daughter does not need a marriage licence, which is the topic of the discussion.

 

[Evandr]

If I may, putting aside all other considerations it is a profound truism that those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is a fact that every great civilization that became so "enlightened" as to set aside the commandments of God and make Homosexuality a standard concept in the prevailing social fabric has been destroyed and here we go again, bound and determined to ignore the lessons of history and dive headlong into the deadly quagmire with eyes wide opened. It is no wonder that the LDS church stands up against this issue so profoundly when they have a history of keeping neutral on just about every other political issue.