LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Autodidact]

Define a long time.
As to your comment about Christianity, yes, you are right but isn't it interesting that the fall came after these people were given to understand the rules and then proceeded to ignore them.

Pure special pleading; completely illogical. "Non-Christian civilizations fall." "What about this civilization that didn't fall until it converted to Christianity?" "Well, it wasn't Christian enough." It would make as much sense to argue that Greece was destroyed because it wasn't gay enough.

 

[Evandr]

Lets get a few things straight - I am the worst speller on the planet (thank goodness for spell checkers) and that is just the way it is so you should stop weakening your own platforms by leaning so heavily on the angle of discrediting my thoughts by pointing to my grammar - you all know what I am saying so, all you really smart people, go ahead and correct my spelling but after that try to say something relevant to the topic, and while your at it try to get off the defensive and present something, anything, that supports the concept of homosexuality and atheism as a good thing for our society.

We can discuss atheism and homosexuality all we want but one thing is obvious - the concepts being discussed here are not new; they have been debated for centuries. When they do manage to get a social foothold the society is weakened but that is useless information unless it is used to maintain social values aimed at creating the strongest social strata possible. In the interim the argument will simply continue in an endless debate wherein there can be no winner save for those who make the right decision. Your arguments against me and my background and understanding are pointless because, on the whole, my opinions are held and have been sustained sufficiently by thousands of years of human history and that my friend trumps anything you may say here.

For me the bottom line is this - I believe that everyone, and I mean everyone has been endowed with the ability to discern right from wrong, weather or not they choose to admit it. It's what separates humans from animals. It is what we do with that ability that will determine our fate in the eternities. Irrespective of the fact that it is contrary to the commandments of God, it is a commonly held viewpoint by the vast majority of human history that homosexuality is socially degrading. Although it may not be the defining factor in a fallen society, it is evident that societies embracing such values (and yes, there are many degrading values) struggle to maintain prosperity and, as history had shown, ultimately succumb to the ill effects of such. It may take a long time but it always happens as it is currently happening right here in our own back yard. The strongest argument in the atheist arsenal is the call to "prove it" because words cannot and time is slow to demonstrate it.

Furthermore, I am not the least bit impressed with the wonderful credentials of any who take the stance of the atheist or homosexual whether or not they embrace the values themselves. Such a position severely degrades grand claims to knowledge and understanding because wisdom is knowledge rightly applied and human history has been very consistent about putting the concepts of homosexuality and atheism in their proper places, namely a file labeled "unwise".

Do I hate the atheist or homosexual? - Certainly not, I fully respect a person’s right to decide for themselves how to act and the values they choose to take upon themselves provided those values do not deny me the same. Do I shun any such – again certainly not, my boss is Gay and a good man to whom I am pleased to call a fellow worker but that does not mean that I must embrace the concepts or accept them as part of my society. Fortunately the vast majority of the human population recognizes the folly of it and, as of yet, has managed to keep returning such unwise social values to the realm of debate where they can do the least damage.

Heaven help us all if these values become permanently ingrained into our social fabric for our Heavenly Father will stand for only so much mocking before He lets the weight of our own foolishness fall on us.

 

[DallasApple]

For me the bottom line is this - I believe that everyone, and I mean everyone has been endowed with the ability to discern right from wrong, weather or not they choose to admit it. It's what separates humans from animals.

I agree..every one of us can discern right from wrong for OURSELVES..and we as individuals can choose to obey that or not for OURSELVES...For me the bottom line is obeying what I think is right or not obeying what I think right HURTING someone or not...

In this case (your examples) if I thought athiesm and homesexuality was RIGHT for me how in the HELL am I huring anyone else?? I could live my life in PEACE...Just because its not something you discrened to be "right " for you or better yet its "wrong for you doesnt mean the world is going to end if others dont discern for their own personal lives as you do for your self...

And that is the bottom line...

Love

Dallas

 

[gnomon]

Religious institutions proscribing from on high is not a debate.

I would really like to see these reams of historical documents in which homosexuality is actually debated over the centuries

Basically every civilization in recorded history is tied to a specific cultural religious background. Adding up all the religious civilizations which have "failed", often actually experiencing a shift in cultural beliefs while the governing body collapses, far exceeds the failure of civilizations due to atheism or sexual immorality. Actually, the latter amounts to zero so far as I know.

Irrespective of the fact that it is contrary to the commandments of God, it is a commonly held viewpoint by the vast majority of human history that homosexuality is socially degrading.

This is a bold claim. Even if it were true, that the vast majority consider homosexuality socially degrading, doesn't equate to the view that homosexuality destroys civilizations.

Considering that homosexuality can be found amongst all human societies it makes it rather easy to ignore all other factors and state that when a civilization fails it was based on homosexuality. One could just as easily state that civilizations fail due to bald people since all civilizations have bald people. If only in some so called holy scripture somewhere there was a condemnation of baldness we could have a lot of fun with that.

Furthermore, I am not the least bit impressed with the wonderful credentials of any who take the stance of the atheist or homosexual whether or not they embrace the values themselves. Such a position severely degrades grand claims to knowledge and understanding because wisdom is knowledge rightly applied and human history has been very consistent about putting the concepts of homosexuality and atheism in their proper places, namely a file labeled "unwise".

If we took the whole of human history, slavery would be defined as a socially accepted norm supported by religious beliefs.

Do I hate the atheist or homosexual? - Certainly not, I fully respect a person’s right to decide for themselves how to act and the values they choose to take upon themselves provided those values do not deny me the same. Do I shun any such – again certainly not, my boss is Gay and a good man to whom I am pleased to call a fellow worker but that does not mean that I must embrace the concepts or accept them as part of my society.

Is heterosexuality a lifestyle?

 

[DallasApple]

I would really like to see these reams of historical documents in which homosexuality is actually debated over the centuries

Me too...It sounds more like flat out descrimination and oppression to me..Just like women issues and slavery...It hasnt been "debated" for "centuries" that I know of...

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Quote:
Do I hate the atheist or homosexual? - Certainly not, I fully respect a person’s right to decide for themselves how to act and the values they choose to take upon themselves provided those values do not deny me the same. Do I shun any such – again certainly not, my boss is Gay and a good man to whom I am pleased to call a fellow worker but that does not mean that I must embrace the concepts or accept them as part of my society.

Then quit your job...I hate to tell you..but you are "embracing it" in "your society" if you work for a gay man..

Love

Dallas

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What's disputable in this subject?

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female" surely you know that this in a discouse on marriage.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?

1 John 4:16: God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

 

[Autodidact]

We can discuss atheism and homosexuality all we want but one thing is obvious - the concepts being discussed here are not new; they have been debated for centuries.

Who was discussing atheism?

When they do manage to get a social foothold the society is weakened

Says who? Love how you announce nonsense as if it were accepted fact.

but that is useless information unless it is used to maintain social values aimed at creating the strongest social strata possible.

It's not information at all. It's false.

In the interim the argument will simply continue in an endless debate wherein there can be no winner save for those who make the right decision. Your arguments against me and my background and understanding are pointless because, on the whole, my opinions are held and have been sustained sufficiently by thousands of years of human history and that my friend trumps anything you may say here.

Kinda like slavery. As I said, there's no hope for using logic with someone who is still living in a world of superstition. He's already announced that neither logic nor facts will change his mind; he prefers to do things as we've always done them.

For me the bottom line is this - I believe that everyone, and I mean everyone has been endowed with the ability to discern right from wrong, weather or not they choose to admit it. It's what separates humans from animals. It is what we do with that ability that will determine our fate in the eternities. Irrespective of the fact that it is contrary to the commandments of God, it is a commonly held viewpoint by the vast majority of human history that homosexuality is socially degrading.

Do you generally allow the majority to determine your morality?

Although it may not be the defining factor in a fallen society,

and in fact isn't,

it is evident that societies embracing such values (and yes, there are many degrading values) struggle to maintain prosperity and, as history had shown, ultimately succumb to the ill effects of such.

No, it's not. In fact, it's utter baloney.

It may take a long time but it always happens as it is currently happening right here in our own back yard. The strongest argument in the atheist arsenal is the call to "prove it" because words cannot and time is slow to demonstrate it.

It always happens to all societies, Ever. That's what's wrong with your logic.

It's good to know though how powerful we are. Just by living and loving, we have the power to destroy entire societies!

Furthermore, I am not the least bit impressed with the wonderful credentials of any who take the stance of the atheist or homosexual whether or not they embrace the values themselves. Such a position severely degrades grand claims to knowledge and understanding because wisdom is knowledge rightly applied and human history has been very consistent about putting the concepts of homosexuality and atheism in their proper places, namely a file labeled "unwise".

In other words, I've already made up my mind; don't confuse me with the facts.

Do I hate the atheist or homosexual? - Certainly not, I fully respect a person’s right to decide for themselves how to act and the values they choose to take upon themselves provided those values do not deny me the same. Do I shun any such – again certainly not, my boss is Gay and a good man to whom I am pleased to call a fellow worker but that does not mean that I must embrace the concepts or accept them as part of my society. Fortunately the vast majority of the human population recognizes the folly of it and, as of yet, has managed to keep returning such unwise social values to the realm of debate where they can do the least damage.

That's nice. I try to be equaly tolerant of Mormons. Fortunately the vase majority of the human population recognizes the folly of it and, as of yet, has managed to keep returning such unwish social values to the realm of debate where they can do the least damage.

Heaven help us all if these values become permanently ingrained into our social fabric for our Heavenly Father will stand for only so much mocking before He lets the weight of our own foolishness fall on us.

This is what I mean by a basically superstitious, magical approach to reality. There's no hope for reasoning with someone who's thinking is on this level, as this post-er makes clear himself.

To me this is the true danger of Mormonism and many other belief systems. Since they're based in denial of reality, rather than fact, they encourage primitive, magical thinking, which in general is destructive rather than productive.

 

[Sententia]

We can discuss atheism and homosexuality all we want but one thing is obvious - the concepts being discussed here are not new; they have been debated for centuries. When they do manage to get a social foothold the society is weakened but that is useless information unless it is used to maintain social values aimed at creating the strongest social strata possible.

What evidence do you have that homsexuality or atheism weakens society? If you want a modern example there are atheists throughout the us and many groups meet weekly. Atheists in United States outnumber mormons. Two states of the US allow legalized marriage without sexism but homosexuality is an accepted practice throughout the united states.

In the interim the argument will simply continue in an endless debate wherein there can be no winner save for those who make the right decision. Your arguments against me and my background and understanding are pointless because, on the whole, my opinions are held and have been sustained sufficiently by thousands of years of human history and that my friend trumps anything you may say here.

What evidence do you have that 1000s of years of history supports your opinion? What evidence do you have that what happened a 1000 years ago justifies and is relative to support your opinion now? I see the opposite argument where blasphemy was once against the law and warranted the death penalty or stoning and is now acceptable. Men who were gay used to beaten and slain not even that long ago and today we see more acceptance for both atheists and homosexuals.

For me the bottom line is this - I believe that everyone, and I mean everyone has been endowed with the ability to discern right from wrong, weather or not they choose to admit it. It's what separates humans from animals.

What evidence do you have that animals can not discern right from wrong? (Is it because they didn't eat from the forbidden tree?)

It is what we do with that ability that will determine our fate in the eternities.

Ahhh so if I disbelieve in god and you think its wrong then my eternity will be affected?

Irrespective of the fact that it is contrary to the commandments of God, it is a commonly held viewpoint by the vast majority of human history that homosexuality is socially degrading.

In the US slaves used to be commonly raped and whipped and it was accepted... Does that make it right? Your argument is fallacious because you dont offer any evidence. You just say thats how it is cause most people think that. Most people used to think the earth was flat, most people used to think the sun was a god... When I say you are speaking nonsense it is not to insult you.

Although it may not be the defining factor in a fallen society, it is evident that societies embracing such values (and yes, there are many degrading values) struggle to maintain prosperity and, as history had shown, ultimately succumb to the ill effects of such. It may take a long time but it always happens as it is currently happening right here in our own back yard.

This is also fallicious nonsense. Every failed society has failed and you are ascribing your own elevator fantasy reasoning as to why. What if its because they failed to stare into the sun their giver of life for atleast 8 hours a day. You have no evidence for this nonsense you just state it and think you have made some point. How?

The strongest argument in the atheist arsenal is the call to "prove it" because words cannot and time is slow to demonstrate it.

Would you prefer everyone just to believe what everyone else says whether they know what their talking about or not? Does the guy in the robes and the funny hat have the ability to make 2+2=5 just by saying it? Do you hate science and the scientific method?

Heaven help us all if these values become permanently ingrained into our social fabric for our Heavenly Father will stand for only so much mocking before He lets the weight of our own foolishness fall on us.

I dont need a reason to mock god. Which god do you think wont stand for this? What consenting adults do in their home and who they choose to marry is not your concern or gods. Some people who fight for you to be able to have your religion and your beliefs and your free speech are gay and completely disagree with your life and your gods. Some are atheists. Grant them the same respect they grant you.

 

[emiliano]

He made them male and female?

Well he may have made Adam and Eve male and female but apparently stopped paying close attention after that.

Leviticus

14 " 'If the offering to the LORD is a burnt offering of birds, he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon.


15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar.

16 He is to remove the crop with its contents [b] and throw it to the east side of the altar, where the ashes are.

17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not severing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is on the fire on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

You’re not following, Torah is suspended till God write His laws and regulation in their heart, that is after the resurrection, that is the day after, the after life, a spiritual life, God made an end to sacrifices, there is no temple. I hope that you are not thick as to present this as something that is current in any Abrahamic religion, or am I wrong and you are?
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

 

[gnomon]

You’re not following, Torah is suspended till God write His laws and regulation in their heart, that is after the resurrection, that is the day after, the after life, a spiritual life, God made an end to sacrifices, there is no temple. I hope that you are not thick as to present this as something that is current in any Abrahamic religion, or am I wrong and you are?
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

I was being cheeky.

The passages I included were picked completely at random.

I would rather see your opinion on this,

He made them male and female?

Well he may have made Adam and Eve male and female but apparently stopped paying close attention after that.

Many Christians feel that individuals to this day are created by God as opposed to just being a natural process without divine intervention. I believe that most Christians accept the act of childbirth to be a natural process without divine intervention.

 

[emiliano]

1 John 4:16: God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

Craiky! I’ll have to tell them again, we don’t have to marry every thing that we love, and the state does not have to issue licences to all those that want to make a commitment to love for life, we all love our mother and will do so till the end of our life, should we marry them? We love our children, our sister and brother, should we support and issue licences to paedophiles, incestuous union, after all it is love isn’t it? There are many kinds of love, the one that move us toward matrimony is a distinctive one. That one is the one that societies sanctions, the natural attraction of a rational man for a woman.

 

[Evandr]

To all

As I stated earlier your whole platform is supported by the "prove it" request and nothing else. That is a weak platform indeed.

The old axiom that says "none are so blind as those who will not see" certainly applies to us all including me so the proof will be in the pudding and that is still in the pot. Deny it if you will but each of us will be held accountable for our actions and all the running and hiding and arguing and denying and the stamping of feet will not change that nor will the credentials we hang on our walls. What I do or say will not be counted for or against anyone else save that I have been heard by them and they by me. If you are right and I am wrong then so be it and vise-versa. Wherever we go and whatever our fate will be, there we will be and we will be there as a consequence of our own choices. Blaming another and pointing the finger scorn will change nothing.

As I stated earlier we are all endowed with a knowledge of right and wrong but apparently I must add that we do not decide what is right and wrong , that has already been established by God, we can only choose what we will adhear and how we will laqbel it, - weather you want to believe that or not doesn’t change the reality of what is. The question we must ask ourselves in the privacy of our own conscience is “do I really want to be where I am headed?” Don't bother answering the question to me because it won't make any difference, we will all get to where we navigate ourselves to be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Craiky! I’ll have to tell them again, we don’t have to marry every thing that we love,

No, but it does guide us to marriage. It did for me; didn't it for you?

and the state does not have to issue licences to all those that want to make a commitment to love for life, we all love our mother and will do so till the end of our life, should we marry them? We love our children, our sister and brother, should we support and issue licences to paedophiles, incestuous union, after all it is love isn’t it?

Yes, those are examples of love, and yes, there are different types of love. Does your love for your mother, children or siblings prompt you to marry them?

There are many kinds of love, the one that move us toward matrimony is a distinctive one.

Yes, and it's posessed by same-sex couples who want to marry.

That one is the one that societies sanctions, the natural attraction of a rational man for a woman.

Hang on - what does society's sanction have to do about it? Is the will of God subject to human authority?

 

[emiliano]

I was being cheeky.
The passages I included were picked completely at random.
I would rather see your opinion on this,
Many Christians feel that individuals to this day are created by God as opposed to just being a natural process without divine intervention. I believe that most Christians accept the act of childbirth to be a natural process without divine intervention.

Puph! What a relief! I thought that you went bonkers.:slap:The belief is that God wills their coming to be, and also we believe that He has a purpose for them. Why do you think that He made/design them male and female for? He did not made then male , female and gay, did He?

 

[Autodidact]

Balance, balance, balance. People like Evandr don't need no stinkin' evidence! That's the last thing he uses in forming his opinions.

 

[Autodidact]

Puph! What a relief! I thought that you went bonkers.:slap:The belief is that God wills their coming to be, and also we believe that He has a purpose for them. Why do you think that He made/design them male and female for? He did not made then male , female and gay, did He?

Yes, He did.

 

[Autodidact]

To all

As I stated earlier your whole platform is supported by the "prove it" request and nothing else. That is a weak platform indeed.

This is what I mean. Evandr is not part of the reality-based community. He don't need no stinkin' proof!

The old axiom that says "none are so blind as those who will not see" certainly applies to us all including me so the proof will be in the pudding and that is still in the pot.

In other news, the sky is still blue.

Deny it if you will but each of us will be held accountable for our actions and all the running and hiding and arguing and denying and the stamping of feet will not change that nor will the credentials we hang on our walls.

That's right, evandr. Give up your pointless bigotry now while there's still time. God will hold you accountable for how you treat others.

What I do or say will not be counted for or against anyone else save that I have been heard by them and they by me. If you are right and I am wrong then so be it and vise-versa. Wherever we go and whatever our fate will be, there we will be and we will be there as a consequence of our own choices. Blaming another and pointing the finger scorn will change nothing.

In other news, blah blah blah empty pointless post, thanks.

As I stated earlier we are all endowed with a knowledge of right and wrong but apparently I must add that we do not decide what is right and wrong , that has already been established by God, we can only choose what we will adhear and how we will laqbel it,

And you know this how?

- weather you want to believe that or not doesn’t change the reality of what is.

Same for you. The fact that you believe it does not make it true. Given your track record, quite the contrary.

The question we must ask ourselves in the privacy of our own conscience is “do I really want to be where I am headed?” Don't bother answering the question to me because it won't make any difference, we will all get to where we navigate ourselves to be.

Uh, O.K., whatever. Do you have any more meaningless non sequitors you want to contribute?

 

[Autodidact]

Puph! What a relief! I thought that you went bonkers.:slap:The belief is that God wills their coming to be, and also we believe that He has a purpose for them. Why do you think that He made/design them male and female for? He did not made then male , female and gay, did He?

What did He make gay people for?

 

[emiliano]

No, but it does guide us to marriage. It did for me; didn't it for you?
Yes, those are examples of love, and yes, there are different types of love. Does your love for your mother, children or siblings prompt you to marry them?
Yes, and it's posessed by same-sex couples who want to marry.
Hang on - what does society's sanction have to do about it? Is the will of God subject to human authority?

Society has adopted the wisdom in God’s design, the natural attraction of a males and females to pairing for life, so as to have stability in society, to form families that are the smallest unit into which a society divides, this is what makes societies grow. When love degenerates, we have more and more degenerations such as men leaving the natural use of the woman and women leaving the natural use of their bodies, and we have what we have now. What would be the benefit to society to sanction such union?