LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[gnomon]

If I may, putting aside all other considerations it is a profound truism that those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is a fact that every great civilization that became so "enlightened" as to set aside the commandments of God and make Homosexuality a standard concept in the prevailing social fabric has been destroyed and here we go again, bound and determined to ignore the lessons of history and dive headlong into the deadly quagmire with eyes wide opened. It is no wonder that the LDS church stands up against this issue so profoundly when they have a history of keeping neutral on just about every other political issue.

Which great civilizations would those be?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is circular, but it is the only answer that I can give you, Lesbianism according to Christian tenets is a sin that leads to spiritual death, it is no a lesser sin than homosexuality.

Actually, if you go by Romans 1, it's not that lesbianism leads to spiritual death, it's that in one particular case idolatry led to lesbianism.

BTW - if Romans 1 does condemn homosexuality, it condemns a number of things including gossip (verse 29) and arrogance (verse 30) just as strongly. Have you personally done anything to get marriage without parents' permission (in direct contravention of verse 30 along with several Old Testament passages) made illegal?

To me it doesnt sound like its written to be only about being lustful..It said the men and the women turned from the "natural use"..

That sounds more like they are talking about specific sexaul acts..that were considered "unatural"......or not a "natural" way to have sex...

Or Puppetry of the Penis. That's pretty darn unnatural, IMO.

If you assume these are sexual acts beign performed man on man and woman on woman..Then I can use my "imagination" as to what is being considered unatural..

I think this needs a fair bit of assumption about what "natural" means. If it means heterosexual people engaging in acts with members of the same sex, then that'd be unnatural. I don't necessarily see the need to expand the meaning of the passage beyond that.

Wrongo my dear fellow! If one does not adhere to Christian doctrines (Mostly Paul’s) one ceases to be a Christian, a donkey may dream to became a race horse, but it can only dream of it, Christians are those that follow Christian doctrines.

I thought you were supposed to accept one whose faith is weak without passing judgement on disputable matters. No?

I read that somewhere once.

If I may, putting aside all other considerations it is a profound truism that those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is a fact that every great civilization that became so "enlightened" as to set aside the commandments of God and make Homosexuality a standard concept in the prevailing social fabric has been destroyed and here we go again, bound and determined to ignore the lessons of history and dive headlong into the deadly quagmire with eyes wide opened. It is no wonder that the LDS church stands up against this issue so profoundly when they have a history of keeping neutral on just about every other political issue.

When considering the "commandments of God", which is a greater affront: the legalization of Sunday shopping (which goes directly against one of the Ten Commandments), or legalization of same-sex marriage (which both the Ten Commandments and Christ Himself didn't see important enough to speak on one way or the other)?

 

[Evandr]

Which great civilizations would those be?

A few of the more notable ones is Rome and Greece along with Pompey, Sodom and Ghamora, and lets not forget the flood that destroyed all the life on earth. Other civilizations that are ignorant of God's commandments on the issue never make it to the top in the first place (please don't ask me to list every third world country on the earth, I think you get my drift). Isn't it interesting that greatness is always obtained before the deteriorating effects of sexual promiscuity begins to infect the populace.

Now, why don't you name me some that are still thriving after five or six hundred years.

 

[Evandr]

When considering the "commandments of God", which is a greater affront: the legalization of Sunday shopping (which goes directly against one of the Ten Commandments), or legalization of same-sex marriage (which both the Ten Commandments and Christ Himself didn't see important enough to speak on one way or the other)?

Are you serious? Comparing shopping on Sunday to toying with the power to pro create God's children and the dire consequences that follow when the rules are ignored? Give me a break, will ya? Let me answer your next question before you ask - Keeping the commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth also has its intended consequences and trying to alter the plan will put a person under condemnation for trying to usurp the authority of God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A few of the more notable ones is Rome and Greece along with Pompey, Sodom and Ghamora, and lets not forget the flood that destroyed all the life on earth.

As has been pointed out by others in other threads, the Roman Empire lasted for Centuries. It only collapsed after it converted to Christianity. Greece did quite well for itself for a long time as well.

Sodom, Gomorrah and the flood never existed outside the imagination of the people who created the stories that ended up in the Bible, so they're just about as relevant to the discussion as Hogwart's and Lilliput.

Other civilizations that are ignorant of God's commandments on the issue never make it to the top in the first place (please don't ask me to list every third world country on the earth, I think you get my drift).

Wouldn't that undermine your point? If there's a general trend, it's that religious adherence in third-world countries tends to be much higher than those with high standards of living.

Isn't it interesting that greatness is always obtained before the deteriorating effects of sexual promiscuity begins to infect the populace.

What exactly are you talking about? Many secular countries have done quite well for themselves, and have continued to do so as they lose their religiosity.

Now, why don't you name me some that are still thriving after five or six hundred years.

The only society as I know of that's lasted anywhere near that long was ancient Egypt, which wasn't exactly the pinnacle of Christian virtue, was it?

 

[Sententia]

A few of the more notable ones is Rome and Greece along with Pompey, Sodom and Ghamora, and lets not forget the flood that destroyed all the life on earth. Other civilizations that are ignorant of God's commandments on the issue never make it to the top in the first place (please don't ask me to list every third world country on the earth, I think you get my drift). Isn't it interesting that greatness is always obtained before the deteriorating effects of sexual promiscuity begins to infect the populace.

As far as I can tell you have no biblical or secular education to back this opinion. You have an opinion though and we hear you but honestly people are going to respond to this in a very negative way as you seem to be basing your opinion on nonsense.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you serious? Comparing shopping on Sunday to toying with the power to pro create God's children and the dire consequences that follow when the rules are ignored? Give me a break, will ya?

Why? It was important enough for God to write a command against it to humanity with His own hand, wasn't it? Who are we to question God's judgement?

Let me answer your next question before you ask - Keeping the commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth also has its intended consequences and trying to alter the plan will put a person under condemnation for trying to usurp the authority of God.

How exactly does having unmarried same-sex couples bring us further to the goal of being fruitful and replenishing the Earth than having married same-sex couples does?

Also, the command you mention doesn't end with just being fruitful and multiplying; in the passage, God goes on to command that Adam and Eve should rule over the animals. Are you a farmer?

Are people who aren't farmers trying to "usurp the authority of God"?

 

[gnomon]

A few of the more notable ones is Rome and Greece along with Pompey, Sodom and Ghamora, and lets not forget the flood that destroyed all the life on earth. Other civilizations that are ignorant of God's commandments on the issue never make it to the top in the first place (please don't ask me to list every third world country on the earth, I think you get my drift). Isn't it interesting that greatness is always obtained before the deteriorating effects of sexual promiscuity begins to infect the populace.

Now, why don't you name me some that are still thriving after five or six hundred years.

The value of labeling Sodom and Gomorrah as great civilizations is rather suspect.

Pompeii.......I guess lesbian pictorials would invoke the wrath of God yet San Francisco still stands.

The fall of the Roman empire is long, complex and misleading. The Roman Empire did not completely collapse at the end of the 5th century. The Eastern portion of the Empire, which had become the center quite some time before its collapse, remained for quite some time.

Greece. A collection of various cities with a variety of cultural practices that still cannot be determined with absolute certainty by historians and archaeologists was supplanted by who............the Roman Empire with all its sexual deviancy?

The Khmer Empire stood for six hundred years. But, of course, they are not still around.

China, still around. No, not a bastion of homosexual acceptance but also not a bastion of Christian faith. Sure, there's been changes but the culture is still there after all these millenia.

British Empire, French Empire, Spanish Empire, Russian Empire, Austrian Empire........all Christian based empires that fell. The resurgence of those nations no longer acting under imperial auspices, excepting Russia, are due to a liberalization of social policies and progress away from a Church centered political world.

The main point is that empires come and go with very little relation to homosexuality. Unless your contention is that God is behind every plague, war, flood, volcanic eruption, etc. all because among the multitude some very few engaged in a bit of so called "immoral" sexual practices. It's like trying to save a lot of hostages from a few bad guys with weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Evandr]

As has been pointed out by others in other threads, the Roman Empire lasted for Centuries. It only collapsed after it converted to Christianity. Greece did quite well for itself for a long time as well.

Define a long time.
As to your comment about Christianity, yes, you are right but isn't it interesting that the fall came after these people were given to understand the rules and then proceeded to ignore them.

As far as I can tell you have no biblical or secular education to back this opinion. You have an opinion though and we hear you but honestly people are going to respond to this in a very negative way as you seem to be basing your opinion on nonsense.

As do you.

I am quite sure that this debate went on in the annels of Rome and Greek history just as it is here and I am quite sure that our fate will be the same only this time will be the last time and will make the other calamities look like a walk in the park. To bad we cannot learn from the mistakes of others. There are now and have been throughout history numberless concourses of people who understood the folly of atheism and homosexuality and so the battle rages on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Define a long time.

Alexander the Great to the fall of Ptolemaic Egypt... about three centuries.

As to your comment about Christianity, yes, you are right but isn't it interesting that the fall came after these people were given to understand the rules and then proceeded to ignore them.

Ah: No True Scotsman.

 

[Sententia]

As do you.

Evandr mate... You are accusing me of what I accused you of. That is... That I do not have the secular and biblical education to advise you of my opinion on what you claimed.

A few of the more notable ones is Rome and Greece along with Pompey, Sodom and Ghamora, and lets not forget the flood that destroyed all the life on earth.

Did you mean: Sodom and Gomorrah?????

Pompei? Wasn't Pompey a military dude in Rome?

Assuming you were capable of even stating your argument properly you would know the historical existence of Sodom and Gomorrah is in dispute by people who know lots more than you. (And... and this is IMHO... would kick your tail in a spelling Bee) Also the flood is a biblical belief.. the only historical evidence is possibly a small local flood that had nothing to do with rain for 40 days and 40 nights... but bah... us atheists are crazy evil people right?

I am quite sure that this debate went on in the annels of Rome and Greek history just as it is here and I am quite sure that our fate will be the same only this time will be the last time and will make the other calamities look like a walk in the park.

Did you mean: angels???

Assuming you meant Annals I would invite you to please restate your sentence and select the definition of annals which best helps you describe your point:

1 : a record of events arranged in yearly sequence 2 : historical records : chronicles 3 : records of the activities of an organization

As was pointed out to you several times there is a history of things that actually happened and you have formerly been invited to explore those here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1351900-post1885.html

To bad we cannot learn from the mistakes of others. There are now and have been throughout history numberless concourses of people who understood the folly of atheism and homosexuality and so the battle rages on.

Its TOO bad... yes. As far as the folly of atheism and homosexuality you again are inviting more negative reactions because you have no idea what you are talking about and are just mindlessly insulting people.

 

[emiliano]

Actually, if you go by Romans 1, it's not that lesbianism leads to spiritual death, it's that in one particular case idolatry led to lesbianism.
Craiky, the goalpost is moving, OK let go to Roman chapter one Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves. It is well known that Roman and particularly the Greek thought the homosexuality was OK it is quite explicit “the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error” this is the fitting punishment: even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature, they became Lesbians.
BTW - if Romans 1 does condemn homosexuality, it condemns a number of things including gossip (verse 29) and arrogance (verse 30) just as strongly. Have you personally done anything to get marriage without parents' permission (in direct contravention of verse 30 along with several Old Testament passages) made illegal?
This is exactly what I’ve telling people, the OT/Torah and it statutes are not for the those of the new covenant, we are under Grace, and for the Jews it’s suspended till the time when God Himself will write it in their hearts Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
What are those days? The days after what? Here is an announcement: Joe 2:10 The earth shall tremble before them; the heavens shall shake. The sun and the moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.
Joe 2:11 And Jehovah shall utter His voice before His army; for His camp is very great; for strong is He who does His Word. For the day of Jehovah is great and very terrible; and who can stand it? Here are those that will not stand Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous
May I also direct you to the Lord’s teaching on the subject of marriage: Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.

 

[emiliano]

I thought you were supposed to accept one whose faith is weak without passing judgement on disputable matters. No?

I read that somewhere once.

What's disputable in this subject?

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female" surely you know that this in a discouse on marriage.
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels, not to mention the things of this life?

 

[gnomon]

He made them male and female?

Well he may have made Adam and Eve male and female but apparently stopped paying close attention after that.

Leviticus

14 " 'If the offering to the LORD is a burnt offering of birds, he is to offer a dove or a young pigeon.


15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar.

16 He is to remove the crop with its contents [b] and throw it to the east side of the altar, where the ashes are.

17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not severing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is on the fire on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

 

[Autodidact]

Do you not appreciate, though, that there are many different types of love?

Yup, and they're all good.

When the Bible commands we must love our neighbours, I do not think of it as implying I should have a sexual love for them, rather a friendship and a spirit of charity. I have family and friends who I hold closely enough to consider that I love them, but there is no spirit of eros there.

I think it includes all kinds of love.

Therefore to claim that a command to (and the condoning of) love is condoning eroticism is misguided.

You don't think your love of your spouse is included?

 

[Autodidact]

Wrongo my dear fellow! If one does not adhere to Christian doctrines (Mostly Paul’s) one ceases to be a Christian, a donkey may dream to became a race horse, but it can only dream of it, Christians are those that follow Christian doctrines.

Hmmm. Interesting. So there are people going around calling themselves Christian who really aren't? I guess you have the authority to decide who is and is not a Real Christian? What about the people who say you're not a Real Christian? How did you get to be in charge of making this determination? Actually, you've already told us that you do not abide by the Bible's words, but twist it to impose your own prejudice on others. Is that Real Christianity?

 

[Autodidact]

Now Auto this can go on forever, you went to the Tanach/ Pentateuch/Old Testament which is the part of the Bible that narrated God’s dealings with the ancient Israelite, the numerous corrections that end up in their exile, thus the land where these statutes and regulation will be applied is still at hand (been prepared) to be in it we you need to repent and change.
“Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand” The women in Ruth did not get married, did they? The reason is simple the love of these women felt for each other was a different kind of love, the love of a daughter for her mother , and the love of a mother for her daughter does not need a marriage licence, which is the topic of the discussion.

It's the OT that tells us to love one another? I thought that was a Christian doctrine. Are you sure you've read the Bible? You don't seem to know much about what it says. btw, can you cite the verse where Jesus tells us not to be lesbians? Because I can cite several passages where He tells us to love one another, and also not to judge each other.

 

[Autodidact]

If I may, putting aside all other considerations it is a profound truism that those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is a fact that every great civilization that became so "enlightened" as to set aside the commandments of God and make Homosexuality a standard concept in the prevailing social fabric has been destroyed and here we go again, bound and determined to ignore the lessons of history and dive headlong into the deadly quagmire with eyes wide opened. It is no wonder that the LDS church stands up against this issue so profoundly when they have a history of keeping neutral on just about every other political issue.

That's hilarious. It's a fact that every great civilization that failed to accept gay people has been destroyed. It is a fact that the Roman civilization thrived--until Christianity became its state religion, when it rapidly was destroyed. This is an ignorant, silly argument. Really, do I need to explain in detail how illogical this is?

btw, how's Western Europe doing these days? Has it collapsed yet?

With people whose belief system is basically superstition, like this poster it's hard to argue using logic.

 

[Autodidact]

A few of the more notable ones is Rome and Greece along with Pompey, Sodom and Ghamora, and lets not forget the flood that destroyed all the life on earth. Other civilizations that are ignorant of God's commandments on the issue never make it to the top in the first place (please don't ask me to list every third world country on the earth, I think you get my drift). Isn't it interesting that greatness is always obtained before the deteriorating effects of sexual promiscuity begins to infect the populace.

Now, why don't you name me some that are still thriving after five or six hundred years.

See what I mean? When you're talking to someone this ignorant, whose beliefs are based on literal acceptance of ancient superstitions, it really doesn't work to bring in reality. He's never heard of China, thinks that there really was a Sodom and Gomorrah that really was destroyed by God, etc. btw, Evandr, have you read what the Bible actually says in the ancient myth about why a mythical ancient God mythically destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Because it wasn't for homosexuality. Go back and read it. (If you're too lazy or ignorant of your own holy text, I'll get it and post it here for you.)

 

[Autodidact]

Are you serious? Comparing shopping on Sunday to toying with the power to pro create God's children and the dire consequences that follow when the rules are ignored? Give me a break, will ya? Let me answer your next question before you ask - Keeping the commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth also has its intended consequences and trying to alter the plan will put a person under condemnation for trying to usurp the authority of God.

You're right, it's a ridiculous comparison; the former is actually prohibited, while the latter is not. Or can you cite the text where lesbianism is prohibited, Evandr? How about divorce and remarriage?