Lebanon's "Act of War"

[Radio Frequency X]

This thread is certainly indicative of the inevitability of war. Apparently we are living in two totally different realities. *shrugs* So much death for nothing. It really ****** me off that tens of thousands of people are going to die because they are ruled by hate and mastered by fear.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I found the following CNN article interesting. It notes, in part, ...

Arabs look to U.S. for diplomatic solution

By Elise Labott - CNN​

(CNN) -- Diplomatic efforts to resolve the Middle East crisis are unlikely to prove successful until Israel feels it has crippled Hezbollah or President George W. Bush pressures Israel to halt the offensive, Arab diplomats said Monday.

One senior Arab diplomat said the answer lies in Washington: "Just like only [President] Nixon could go to China, only Bush can push Israel."

But officials such as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and U.N. Ambassador John Bolton have said the United States does not believe the time is right for a cease-fire.

The U.S. position is that a cease-fire is a temporary halt to the hostilities, and what everyone wants is a solution that eliminates the threat posed by Hezbollah.

Privately, senior U.S. officials said they don't expect the fighting to stop until Israel has sufficiently demobilized Hezbollah.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Monday his country is committed to "removing Hezbollah from the area" and bringing home the two Israeli soldiers abducted last week before halting its military operations in Lebanon.

The Arab League -- plus, in separate statements, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia -- put the onus on Hezbollah for igniting the violence.

But now Arab diplomats are afraid this is being used as justification for the continued Israeli operations in Lebanon. The longer the operations go on, diplomats say, it will be increasingly difficult for Arab leaders to put the blame on Hezbollah, because ongoing violence will fuel anti-Israeli public opinion in their countries. [emphasis added - JS]​

If you listen carefully, you will detect the slightest moderation in Olmert's talk with respect to negotiation, though he still insists that such negotiation must include disarming terrorists on Israel's border.

Perhaps a result will be a UN-controlled buffer zone between Israel and Leanon. Recent UN involvement in Lebanon has been thoroughly underwhelming, mimicking there effectiveness elsewhere, but a serious UN military presence along with the release of Israel's soldiers may well be enough to end the hostilities.

 

[Pah]

Antagonism is NOT a characteristic we want in our threads and posts.

If civility can not be maintained the thread will be closed or trashed and administrative action considered for offending parties.​

 

[James the Persian]

Hmm... Didn't you just attack me as a 'friend of Islamic terrorism' for advocating such a ceasefire, or was I dreaming?

James

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In line with my thread above, the following from Haaretz

Dichter: Israel may have to consider prisoner swap
UN delegation presents cease-fire package; Livni hints Israel won't rule out int'l force in Lebanon​

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni hinted Tuesday that Israel would not object to a temporary international force in south Lebanon, despite earlier an outright Israeli rejection of such a plan.

Speaking after a meeting with a United Nations delegation headed by special envoy Vijay Nambiar, Livni said that while Israel would prefer the deployment of the Lebanese army in the south of the country, "we will consider other solutions put forward."

"If there is a need to strengthen the Lebanese army somehow, so that the military in south Lebanon is effective, and prevents Hezbollah from returning, we will consider ways to do achieve this," Livni said.

She stressed, however, that any solution would have to take into consideration Israel's ability to respond to any incidents in the future.

During the meeting with UN delegates Tuesday, Livni stressed that the current UNIFIL force "is ineffective and irrelevant." The UN envoys put forward to Livni a package aimed at ending the fighting, based on an outline drawn up by the G8 leaders during their meeting in Russia on Monday. [emphasis added - JS]

The Israeli and UN teams disagreed over the order in which the steps should be implemented. According to the plan, the three soldiers abducted by Hezbollah and Hamas would be freed, rocket fire on Israel would end, Israel would halt its Air Force strikes on Lebanon and withdraw its troops from Gaza and the Hamas lawmakers.

Israel is demanding that the three soldiers be returned first, before the attacks on Lebanon stop.

Livni also indicated that Israel could agree to put off the disarmament of Hezbollah, provided that Lebanon immediately deploy its own troops along the border.

"We are beginning a diplomatic process alongside the military operation that will continue," Livni said after meeting with the UN delegation.

"The diplomatic process is not meant to shorten the window of time of the army's operation but rather is meant to be an extension of it and to prevent a need for future military operations." [emphasis added - JS]

Meanwhile, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Tuesday that he expected European troops to join a proposed stabilization force in Lebanon.

Indonesia said Tuesday it is prepared to send some 450 troops for a possible UN-led peacekeeping mission in Lebanon.

The country's president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono made the offer after meeting Middle Eastern ambassadors to Indonesia.

Yudhoyono said a UN-led force should be dispatched to Lebanon to stop the fighting.

"Indonesia is ready to send about one battalion to held keep peace there," Yudhoyono told reporters.​

The second paragraph should not be overlooked. Specifically ...

Speaking after a meeting with a United Nations delegation headed by special envoy Vijay Nambiar, Livni said that while Israel would prefer the deployment of the Lebanese army in the south of the country, "we will consider other solutions put forward."​

This war has always been one against barbaric terrorism and about Lebanon, after years and years of failure, taking responsible ownership of its own country.

It must be said that throughout this struggle, Bolton's focus and comments have been exemplary.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To continue, this time from ynet

Livni: Diplomatic process undertaken​

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni states diplomatic process is not aimed at shortening IDF operation; UN envoy says Israel, Lebanon understand need for political solution to crisis.

Did political process kick off? Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni met United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan's team of special envoys to the Middle East on Tuesday.

The envoys, Annan's special political advisor Vijay Nambiar, special envoy to Syria and Lebanon Terje Roed-Larsen who was appointed to see the implementation of Resolution 1559, UN Mideast envoy Alvaro de Soto, arrived in Jerusalem from Beirut, where they met Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.

Livni said Israel is engaged in talks with the international community, but stressed that diplomacy is not meant to curtail the IDF's operations in Lebanon.

A diplomatic solution to the crisis is aimed at preventing similar military operations in the region.

"The diplomatic aims are long-term – so far diplomacy successfully focused on gaining international support for an IDF operation, and now we are moving to the next stage. The G8 and European Union statement of the last few days prove that Israel and the international community have common understandings and have common goals they want to reach," Livnin said.

"The common understanding is that the responsibly in the north lies with Hizbullah and in relation to the conflict with the Palestinians with Hamas. There is a general understanding that a cease-fire for the sake of a cease-fire is not enough but the unconditional return of the soldiers and fully implementing UN resolution 1559, to prevent Hizbullah from establishing itself as a provocateur in the region," she added.

The foreign minister also said: "I expressed my position and expectations from the international community. It is about the three kidnapped soldiers, between digging tunnels from Gaza to infiltrations from Lebanon to kidnap soldiers, we will not accept that there is no legitimacy from the international community. We need to remember that the international community and not only Israel are struggling against similar situations all over the world, and therefore the interest of Israel and of the international community is to relay a message to terror groups that this path will not achieve political aims or strengthen them."

[emphasis added - JS]

'Lebanese gov't failed'

Livni stressed the need to implement UN resolution 1559. "There is a need to expel Hizbullah from the Lebanese border, to implement resolution 1559, meaning deploying the Lebanese army in south Lebanon and disarming Hizbullah. There is another need to prevent Iran and Syria from arming Hizbullah in the future and to make it what it is today. These are our political aims and we will achieve them by working with the international community.

"It is not a secret that the Lebanese government failed to implement 1559. Siniora decided to launch international dialogue with Hizbullah and the claim of the Lebanese government is its weakness and its decision to avoid civil war. She said IDF operations have weakened the Hizbullah and the Lebanese government can act easily and in many ways the IDF operation has done the Lebanese government and the international community a favor."

Speaking about the possibility of sending international troops to Lebanon, Livni said: "Past experience with UNIFIL is not sufficient. If something happens Israel and Lebanon will be able to understand if there is a problem in sending the Lebanese army in an effective manner. We will weigh what are the ways that will satisfy us. The criteria are: the implementation of resolution 1559 and sending the Lebanese army to the south and if there is a problem in terms of efficiency we will discuss ideas thrown in the air."​

 

[Peace]

quote=michel]

wait a minute, first you say "wrong" (ie there are no liars), then you say 'not so many as we have"? That sounds a bit contradictory now, doesn't it?

What I meant by "Wrong" is to refute your claim that there are many untrue unfaithful Muslims.

If by reverts, you mean 'converts", of course you are right; to become a convert one must be very committed.

Not only Mulims but also those non-Muslims who are objective and say the word of truth and that you didn't want to mention.

 

[Ðanisty]

Ðanisty,
if you really want to know about islam,,, first get rid of the stereotyping look toward islam, and go to respectfull known sources (not the undercover zionists sources, or the extremists and fanatics sources)

sindbad, I would suggest you don't make assumptions about other people. What I have read of Islam comes straight from the source (though I certainly don't claim to have read it in it's entirety). What is commonly followed now seems to be divergent from that source. I have no zionist background. I don't have a Jewish background. I don't even have a Christian background.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And then there's the illustrious Kofi Annan

Urging the international community to "end the fighting and the killing," UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan backed a Lebanon stabilization force Tuesday stressing it must be bigger and better armed than the UN's current force of about 2,000.

Speaking to reporters after discussing the Middle East at the European Commission, Annan said the UN Security Council would have to work out the proposed force's size and rules of engagement.

He said such a force should be "larger than the 2,000-man force we have there (and) have a different concept of operation and, hopefully, a different mandate from the Security Council that will allow them to operate" in southern Lebanon.

He said that would "help stabilize the situation whilst it gives the government of Lebanon time to organize itself (and) extend its authority throughout the territory, including the south" where Hizbullah militants have built up their military capabilities.

The deployment of the stabilization force would also give the government in Beirut time to "sort out the question of disarmament of the militia" in south Lebanon, Annan said.

He said he expects European and other countries to supply troops for the force, saying "It is urgent that the international community acts to make a difference on the ground."

Standing next to Annan at a news conference, Javier Solana, the EU's foreign and security chief, said, "We will be ready to help."

The current UN force in South Lebanon, known as UNIFIL, was created in 1978 to boost the Beirut government's authority there, but it proved to be powerless.​

So, Annan promises that now, after a quarter of a century of worthless presence, his UN will choose to be effective. Oy vey!

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Forty to fifty percent of Hizbullah's military capability has been destroyed in the six days of the IDF counter-attack following last Wednesday's Hizbullah raid in northern Israel, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

The IDF, it is understood, believes it needs another week or so minimum to achieve its military goals in terms of alleviating Hizbullah's capacity to threaten Israel.

source

Wouldn't it make a great deal of sense to allow Israel another week or so take take care of the 50-60% of Hizbullah that is left? Then we can talk ceasefire and UN troops and helping the Lebanese government.

 

[jewscout]

Which history are reading and referring to? the history of lies? Palestine is an Arab land, belonging to Arabs for thousands of years. The Jews are just intruders came to invade and steal the land.

it didn't belong to anyone who lived there! most of that land was controlled by Ottoman leaders who lived hundreds of miles away, and then sold off this desolate hunk of real estate to jewish settlers because it was worthless to them

 

[jewscout]

exactly this's what i'm talking about,,, they deny the existance of the palestinian nation, what you expect from palestinians after that?
jewscout,,, honestly, what palestinians should do ? i'd like to hear from you

what they should do
1) stop trying to kill jews!
2) get rid of the extremists
3) use the billions of dollars they get in international aid and start working w/ Israel to build an economic infrastructure that will work for the benefit of both nations
4) elect leaders who care about creating peace and accept the fact that both sides will not be totally happy with a final 2-state-solution but in the long run will save countless lives!

again, these 2 nations, working together, could do so much for each other...
for crying out loud, the place is a tourist gold-mine!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

the place is a tourist gold-mine!

True. But not for me when people are killing eachother.

I've had three oppotunities to go in the past six years. I passed all three times.

 

[jewscout]

THEY don't want to live in peace. So if they can just leave our lands then there will be no problem at all, and we will not even pay attention to them.

and yet nearly every major conflict since 1948 has been instigated by the Arab nations that surround israel...the antisemitic pollution that brainwashes a generation of children has ensured continued conflict and hostility toward one another...

what would u do w/ the Arab jews? would u give them back their homes and business and money that was taken from them when they were thrown out of the Arab world following the defeat of the Arab nations in 1948?
What of the Ethiopian Jews? send them back to be persecuted and oppressed?
The Jews of Latin America, South Africa, and all over Europe and former Soviet Union who left to go to Israel to escape the violence of Anti-semitism...

how do u expect to solve these situations? or once they are gone they are no longer your problem?

 

[jewscout]

True. But not for me when people are killing eachother.

I've had three oppotunities to go in the past six years. I passed all three times.

my point exactly!!!!

 

[michel]

What I meant by "Wrong" is to refute your claim that there are many untrue unfaithful Muslims.

So now you admit that there are some; before, I understood you to say that there were none.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

True.

But not for me when people are killing eachother.

I've had three oppotunities to go in the past six years. I passed all three times.

You chose poorly.

jewscout is right: a democratic Palestine committed to peace and prosperity would be a jewel prized by its people and applauded by its neighbors. A Palestine committed to internal sectarian strife, regional terrorism, and the destruction of Israel is unlikely to rise above the level of garbage dump.

So they, too, have a choice.

Personally, I'm torn - torn between sorrow for the living conditions in Gaza and contempt for a society that, like most societies, gets the political leadership that it deserves.

 

[jewscout]

Personally, I'm torn - torn between sorrow for the living conditions in Gaza and contempt for a society that, like most societies, get the political leadership that it deserves.

just a side note....interesting u say that Jay...i actually read that somewhere in a Torah commentary...i think it was Balak...."the people get the leaders they deserve" or something like that...

sorry didn't mean to get off topic

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You chose poorly.

Perhaps. I've not regretted missing that opportunity. Being in the field that I am in, I am confident that I will have plenty of chances to go, so I have no qualms about waiting until there is peace. There's plenty to keep me busy in the UK and Rome. In fact, I've purposely chosen research topics that will keep me as far as possible from the Middle East and in Greece and Europe because I don't want to travel over there.

 

[jewscout]

Perhaps. I've not regretted missing that opportunity. Being in the field that I am in, I am confident that I will have plenty of chances to go, so I have no qualms about waiting until there is peace. There's plenty to keep me busy in the UK and Rome. In fact, I've purposely chosen research topics that will keep me as far as possible from the Middle East and in Greece and Europe because I don't want to travel over there.

that's my point...if a Palestinian leadership came that cared about real peace and cooperation w/ Israel and actually helping their people instead of lining their own pockets w/ cash...u would go...many more people would...and the people would prosper!!

it's not that hard people!
1 + 1 = 2!!