Left Hand Path?

[crossfire]

Lol, I normally consider Urban Dictionary a handy tool when it comes to slang, but not exactly for philosophical technical terms, and that entry contains as much wrong as truth.

If anything, reading that definition I'd think of RHP-charlatans that "pursue worldly goals and pleasures as opposed to the spiritual" and "may perform rites for money or sex" - they just don't do it openly.
I mean, of course LHPers can do so as well, but we at least are generally honest about it.
Our path includes the option to do that stuff, but it's not restricted to it.

And a spiritual path with only worldly and no spiritual goals?
I mean, there is a grain of truth in it - the LHP (both east and west) tends to not make a difference between what is worldly and what is spiritual, treating both as one and the same thing.
Nevertheless the definition there sounds a bit paradoxical, unless the author is referring to 2 different meanings of "spiritual" in one and the same sentence.

Furthermore, depends on the exact interpretation of the words, but much of both the definitions 1 and 2 seems to fit the western and eastern LHP equally well, in my opinion.

But still fascinating that that article also connects it with the concept of yin.
Also there, depends on what exactly one means. "flowing according to one's inner nature", that certainly sounds familiar to me. I wouldn't say that it applies to all forms of the LHP, though, nor that it's restricted to it.

I did mention that this would be according to far eastern tradition.

 

[Liu]

I did mention that this would be according to far eastern tradition.

True, but by calling it an LHP you also connected it to the other concepts of the LHP which were discussed in this thread, and therefore I brought forth examples in what ways it differs from those.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up Taosim in any case - if we do call it an LHP, then the meaning of that term, if not exactly meaningless, is still that broad and that much based on family resemblance instead of a clear list of characteristics, that it's obvious that most definitions we try to find will find counter-examples.

 

[crossfire]

True, but by calling it an LHP you also connected it to the other concepts of the LHP which were discussed in this thread, and therefore I brought forth examples in what ways it differs from those.

Anyway, thanks for bringing up Taosim in any case - if we do call it an LHP, then the meaning of that term, if not exactly meaningless, is still that broad and that much based on family resemblance instead of a clear list of characteristics, that it's obvious that most definitions we try to find will find counter-examples.

Yes, there are all sorts of terms being thrown around. For instance what @EtuMalku labels "Eastern" LHP, I would define as Western, or derived/developed from Proto-Indo-European culture. I would agree with @Mindmaster in that LHP is separating from collective cultural beliefs dictating ones individual thoughts and beliefs as a bare minimum, and then deciding for yourself what is relevant and what is not relevant from the cultural paradigm.

 

[EtuMalku]

Yes, there are all sorts of terms being thrown around. For instance what @EtuMalku labels "Eastern" LHP, I would define as Western, or derived/developed from Proto-Indo-European culture. I would agree with @Mindmaster in that LHP is separating from collective cultural beliefs dictating ones individual thoughts and beliefs as a bare minimum, and then deciding for yourself what is relevant and what is not relevant from the cultural paradigm.

. . . and what would you call the 'eastern left hand path'?

 

[crossfire]

. . . and what would you call the 'eastern left hand path'?

Well, you seem to have it refer to vamachara specifically, but generalize the term to ELHP. Am I mistaken here?

 

[EtuMalku]

Well, you seem to have it refer to vamachara specifically, but generalize the term to ELHP. Am I mistaken here?

How many times do we have to go over this? Where am I mentioning vamachara? Where am I generalizing LHP to mean ELHP?

 

[crossfire]

How many times do we have to go over this? Where am I mentioning vamachara? Where am I generalizing LHP to mean ELHP?

The claims you make regarding what you call ELHP seem to apply specifically to vamachara. Why not just refer to the specific as a specific, instead of painting a general as a specific?

 

[EtuMalku]

The claims you make regarding what you call ELHP seem to apply specifically to vamachara. Why not just refer to the specific as a specific, instead of painting a general as a specific?

what you call ELHP

Where and what exactly?

 

[crossfire]

Where and what exactly?

here are a couple of quick examples:
Left Hand Path?
The Western Left Hand Defined

If you need a more exhaustive list, let me know.

 

[EtuMalku]

here are a couple of quick examples:
Left Hand Path?
The Western Left Hand Defined

If you need a more exhaustive list, let me know.

The 'Defined' is directly off of our video of which YOU assisted in defining after rewriting it several times to where we were both satisfied. Are you telling me now that we have it all wrong. . . again?

 

[crossfire]

The 'Defined' is directly off of our video of which YOU assisted in defining after rewriting it several times to where we were both satisfied. Are you telling me now that we have it all wrong. . . again?

The post in question I directly linked to:

The difference between Eastern (which is a RHP anyway) and Western LHP is exactly that. There is 'nothing' to go against to a WLHP'er . . . except themselves.

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here?

 

[EtuMalku]

The post in question I directly linked to:

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here?

Within context of what I was replying to let' say I was talking in general that ELHP's are simply heterodox RHP's.

I would think you should know what I mean by now.

 

[crossfire]

Within context of what I was replying to let' say I was talking in general that ELHP's are simply heterodox RHP's.

I would think you should know what I mean by now.

Which
ELHP traditions, in particular? (I really can't think of more than one or two that defines LHP as heterodoxy.)

 

[EtuMalku]

Which
ELHP traditions, in particular? (I really can't think of more than one or two that defines LHP as heterodoxy.)

There is an East, a Middle East and a Far East . . . take your pick. Not to mention the various 'LHP' traditions that are labeled LHP which really aren't.

If you're worried about your Buddhist tradition, that is not one of them.
I really thought we were past all of this ...

 

[crossfire]

There is an East, a Middle East and a Far East . . . take your pick. Not to mention the various 'LHP' traditions that are labeled LHP which really aren't.

Examples?

If you're worried about your Buddhist tradition, that is not one of them.
I really thought we were past all of this ...

Oh, I'm not worried about that.

 

[EtuMalku]

Examples?


Oh, I'm not worried about that.

Pick it up . . . it has all the examples you want

https://www.amazon.com/Lords-Left-Hand-Path-Forbidden-Practices/dp/1594774676

 

[crossfire]

Pick it up . . . it has all the examples you want

https://www.amazon.com/Lords-Left-Hand-Path-Forbidden-Practices/dp/1594774676

Hahahaha!

 

[EtuMalku]

The division into dakshinachara and vamachara is a relatively late one in the history of Hinduism perhaps going back no more than a thousand to fifteen-hundred years the sects of Hinduism which strictly can be said to belong to the vamamarga do not formally belong to the most archaic levels of historical Vedic religion.

The great Indo-European cultural and linguistic migrations beginning around 4000 B.C.E. graphically shows the true root of “western” culture and the Western LHP.

What is essential to realize about the Western LHP aspects of ancient Odinism is that it provided a traditional, established method of self-transformation along a divine model without an intended melding with that god.

The (western) left-hand path is then the path of non-union with the objective universe. It is the way of isolating consciousness within the subjective universe and, in a state of self-imposed psychic solitude, refining the soul or psyche to ever more perfect levels. The objective universe is then made to harmonize itself with the will of the individual psyche instead of the other way around.
_________________________________________
Paraphrased from 'Lords of the Left Hand Path'

 

[Liu]

The division into dakshinachara and vamachara is a relatively late one in the history of Hinduism perhaps going back no more than a thousand to fifteen-hundred years the sects of Hinduism which strictly can be said to belong to the vamamarga do not formally belong to the most archaic levels of historical Vedic religion.

The great Indo-European cultural and linguistic migrations beginning around 4000 B.C.E. graphically shows the true root of “western” culture and the Western LHP.

You are aware that these migrations are also the root of Hinduism and therefore ultimately also the eastern LHP?

What is essential to realize about the Western LHP aspects of ancient Odinism is that it provided a traditional, established method of self-transformation along a divine model without an intended melding with that god.

Odin only became the main deity quite late in Germanic history, and whether historic Odinism was LHP is very much open to debate - I doubt it can be proven from the attested texts but you may try and convince me otherwise.

Furthermore, why would you say that the LHP is opposed to melding with a deity? Not only in the eastern LHP it's commonly the goal, but also in anticosmic Satanism, and depending on what you mean by deity it's even in e.g. Setianism because the deity one wants to become one with there is one's true self (which is also a common notion in the eastern LHP and in less literal interpretations of anticosmic Satanism).

And if we take into account the RHP (be it Christianity or Hinduism), if it's not mysticism (which in itself is quite LHPy in my opinion) it's normally not about melding with the deity whatsoever, on the contrary, most would consider that notion sacrilege.

The (western) left-hand path is then the path of non-union with the objective universe. It is the way of isolating consciousness within the subjective universe and, in a state of self-imposed psychic solitude, refining the soul or psyche to ever more perfect levels. The objective universe is then made to harmonize itself with the will of the individual psyche instead of the other way around.

When taking to its extreme this only works in body-mind-dualism, and if not it's also common in the eastern LHP according to my impression.

Paraphrased from 'Lords of the Left Hand Path'

Just because Stephen Flowers says so doesn't make it true. Also, that book's over 250 pages long, so if you want me to re-read the parts to see in which context they were written please tell which pages or chapter you paraphrased it from.

To continue from the other thread:

Not invalid, just not what the Western LHP is about, and the OP should be given the opportunity to understand there are differences.

@Kapalika pointed out some of those differences herself in the thread in question, and regarding the other characteristics of the LHP which she described they seemed to me to also apply to the western LHP.

Depends on what you mean by 'occult practices'.

Of course, but since it was you who brought up the term it would be helpful to hear your definition of it.

How would you define RHP? (so these people know it's them you're asking to comment)

I can think of several definitions, and all of them would influence the result we would get from asking so I'd prefer not to restrict the question to any of them, especially since I'm not sure which one's I'd subscribe to.
But for the record, e.g.:
- RHP is what is not LHP
- RHP is a spiritual path in which an orthodoxy is followed without (much) questioning
- RHP is what people who identify themselves as RHP do
- RHP is the form of religion that is the mainstream in a given society
- RHP is a spirituality with moral dualism
- RHP is a spirituality in which one subjects one's will to an authority considered to be external, and considers this authority infalsible so that it overrides all others of one's personal convictions

 

[EtuMalku]

Are we debating this here, as asked not to do by a moderator?