Leftist vs. Liberal

[Father Heathen]

Hello. Here's something that I thought would make for interesting discussion, given some people's tendency to conflate the two:

Leftist vs Liberal: Key Differences (US Politicians Listed)

The terms "leftist" and "liberal" differ depending upon the context. In American political discourse, they represent two competing perspectives on the left side of the political aisle. Generally, liberal is used to refer to center-left

helpfulprofessor.com

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, I get so confused with the misuse of the term "leftist." To make things even more complicated, one can be liberal on some things and leftist on other things (or, frankly, even conservative or far right for that matter). It's almost as if simplistic binaries don't adequately describe complex phenomena like political ideologies...

 

[fantome profane]

Hello. Here's something that I thought would make for interesting discussion, given some people's tendency to conflate the two:

Leftist vs Liberal: Key Differences (US Politicians Listed)

The terms "leftist" and "liberal" differ depending upon the context. In American political discourse, they represent two competing perspectives on the left side of the political aisle. Generally, liberal is used to refer to center-left

helpfulprofessor.com

There is enough flexibility in those definitions for someone to be both a leftist and a liberal.

I can and do advocate for a transition to socialism in some areas of the economy and at the same time advocate for a regulated capitalists market that curbs excess. I support civil liberties, democratic institutions, human rights and equality of opportunity while also advocate for systematic changes to eradicate inequalities and injustices.

I am a leftist liberal, or a liberal leftist.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Within certain streams of the left, liberalism is viewed as petit-bourgeois cosmetics.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am a leftist liberal, or a liberal leftist.

 

[Father Heathen]

Within certain streams of the left, liberalism is view as petit-bourgeois cosmetics.

I was once told by a member here that I was de facto rightwing for not completely opposing capitalism, and that supporting strong regulation to protect the environment and the rights of workers and consumers wasn't enough.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I was once told by a member here that I was de facto rightwing for not completely opposing capitalism, and that supporting strong regulation to protect the environment and the rights of workers and consumers wasn't enough.

Could you share a link (on the off chance that your recollection differs from his or hers)?

 

[fantome profane]

Hey Jay. I would love to discuss this with you if you wanted to say something worth discussing. **mod edit**

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hey Jay. I would love to discuss this with you if you wanted to say something worth discussing. **mod edit**

Looks like I hit a nerve, although it's location comes as a bit of a surprise. Oh, well, ...

 

[Debater Slayer]

Hello. Here's something that I thought would make for interesting discussion, given some people's tendency to conflate the two:

Leftist vs Liberal: Key Differences (US Politicians Listed)

The terms "leftist" and "liberal" differ depending upon the context. In American political discourse, they represent two competing perspectives on the left side of the political aisle. Generally, liberal is used to refer to center-left

helpfulprofessor.com

The link has at least two major inaccuracies. First, as far as I know, many liberals advocate for partial or complete government takeover of health insurance in the US, so that viewpoint is not mutually exclusive with being a liberal.

Second, many leftists, especially many socialists, do not advocate for equality of outcome. I know that I and all other socialists I frequently talk to don't either.

In practice, there's a lot of overlap between liberal and leftist positions on many issues, though, especially when it comes to social as opposed to fiscal policies and actual policies as opposed to theoretical foundations. I fundamentally disagree with some central and prevalent principles of liberalism (as I detailed in this post), but I still find a lot of common ground with many liberals, especially on social issues. I also find a lot of common leftist propositions about how to achieve desired change to be either unrealistic or unworkable, so that kind of puts me in a position where neither label fully captures my views. I'm okay with that, since I think that such dichotomous labels often oversimplify and overgeneralize highly complex worldviews and philosophies.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's why in the US both the Dems and the GOP are extremely tolerant and liberal...they are the same party.

Tolerant towards speculators and financial élites, I mean.

I mean...in my perfect Utopian socialist world, these people will have to quit the country and move to those beautiful tax havens...the islands in the Caribbeans. With golden sand and emerald green palms. That's where they belong.

 

[Father Heathen]

Could you share a link (on the off chance that your recollection differs from his or hers)?

Teenages Steal Car Kill Baby Then Charged With Misdemeanor

It was just a late term abortion! How could you post this? Wow

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hello. Here's something that I thought would make for interesting discussion, given some people's tendency to conflate the two:

Leftist vs Liberal: Key Differences (US Politicians Listed)

The terms "leftist" and "liberal" differ depending upon the context. In American political discourse, they represent two competing perspectives on the left side of the political aisle. Generally, liberal is used to refer to center-left

helpfulprofessor.com

Weird, it specifically names the government takeover of the healthcare care industry as "leftist" while I support that because it is the fiscally conservative thing to do.

Who knew that the leftists are the fiscal conservatives?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I was once told by a member here that I was de facto rightwing for not completely opposing capitalism, and that supporting strong regulation to protect the environment and the rights of workers and consumers wasn't enough.

I hope you were wise enough to ignore that member. Capitalism is still the only economic system that can be shown to actually create wealth. Yes, it needs some controls and oversight, like so much of life in complex societies, but without it, the entire society will eventually wind up -- as we saw so often in Communist USSR -- with empty shelves in grocery stores.

Even China is no longer totally socialist (or Communist). Julan Du and Chenggang Xu analyzed the Chinese model in a 2005 paper to assess whether it represents a type of market socialism or capitalism. They concluded that China's contemporary economic system represents a form of capitalism rather than market socialism because: financial markets exist which permit private share ownership—a feature absent in the economic literature on market socialism; and state profits are retained by enterprises rather than being distributed among the population in a social dividend or similar scheme, which are central features in most models of market socialism. Du and Xu concluded that China is not a market socialist economy, but an unstable form of capitalism. (Source)

 

[Father Heathen]

Weird, it specifically names the government takeover of the healthcare care industry as "leftist" while I support that because it is the fiscally conservative thing to do.

Who knew that the leftists are the fiscal conservatives?

It's considered "leftist" because it's tax funded rather than a privatized, predatory racket.

 

[Revoltingest]

I was once told by a member here that I was de facto rightwing for not completely opposing capitalism, and that supporting strong regulation to protect the environment and the rights of workers and consumers wasn't enough.

Sounds like a compliment....you running dog of capitalism, you!

 

[Debater Slayer]

I was once told by a member here that I was de facto rightwing for not completely opposing capitalism, and that supporting strong regulation to protect the environment and the rights of workers and consumers wasn't enough.

The terms "right wing" and "left wing" are highly variable depending on which country one is talking about, so I don't think there's any universal definition whereby all capitalists are necessarily right-wing. For an example focused on the social (rather than economic) aspect of the terms, merely supporting the freedom to have premarital sex, the freedom to be openly irreligious, or even gender equality is strongly left-wing relative to Saudi Arabia's social and political spectrum, even though many people who have these beliefs can still be socially conservative relative to some other countries' contexts.

There's also a difference between social and fiscal spectrums, of course: One could be socially liberal and fiscally right-wing or socially conservative and fiscally left-wing. Calling someone's views "right-wing" or "left-wing" wholesale without clarifying which aspect thereof is being described leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. Islamists are so socially conservative that many of them endorse lashing for premarital sex and capital punishment for homosexual sex, but many Islamist groups actually tend to be economically leftist in a few key ways, such as their staunch support for a strong welfare state and belief in a greater social responsibility for wealthy people.

It is true that in some political contexts, capitalism is typically either near the center or to the right of center on the fiscal spectrum, although it's also true that, say, libertarianism and laissez-faire capitalism are a lot farther to the right than social democracy, even though the latter still retains capitalism and doesn't eliminate or replace it like solidly left-wing economic ideologies tend to propose.

Personally, I don't care about labels—much less binary, simplified, and highly generalized labels—as much as I do people's actual values and beliefs. Some classifications are sometimes quite vague, relative, and variable, as I outlined above, but more importantly, asking people questions and letting them clarify their views seems to me a much more reliable way of understanding others than pigeonholing them as X or Y and trying to force them into a label.

 

[Father Heathen]

The terms "right wing" and "left wing" are highly variable depending on which country one is talking about, so I don't think there's any universal definition whereby all capitalists are necessarily right-wing. For an example focused on the social (rather than economic) aspect of the terms, merely supporting the freedom to have premarital sex, the freedom to be openly irreligious, or even gender equality is strongly left-wing relative to Saudi Arabia's social and political spectrum, even though many people who have these beliefs can still be socially conservative relative to some other countries' contexts.

There's also a difference between social and fiscal spectrums, of course: One could be socially liberal and fiscally right-wing or socially conservative and fiscally left-wing. Calling someone's views "right-wing" or "left-wing" wholesale without clarifying which aspect thereof is being described leaves a lot of room for ambiguity. Islamists are so socially conservative that many of them endorse lashing for premarital sex and capital punishment for homosexual sex, but many Islamist groups actually tend to be economically leftist in a few key ways, such as their staunch support for a strong welfare state and belief in a greater social responsibility for wealthy people.

It is true that in some political contexts, capitalism is typically either near the center or to the right of center on the fiscal spectrum, although it's also true that, say, libertarianism and laissez-faire capitalism are a lot farther to the right than social democracy, even though the latter still retains capitalism and doesn't eliminate or replace it like solidly left-wing economic ideologies tend to propose.

Personally, I don't care about labels—much less binary, simplified, and highly generalized labels—as much as I do people's actual values and beliefs. Some classifications are sometimes quite vague, relative, and variable, as I outlined above, but more importantly, asking people questions and letting them clarify their views seems to me a much more reliable way of understanding others than pigeonholing them as X or Y and trying to force them into a label.

I agree. The political compass is a nuanced spectrum with multiple axes, as you've stated. Selling a bike on eBay doesn't place one in league with Mussolini. I don't care for labels, either. Their usage often gives people an over-simplistic impression of others. They're also often used as slurs, usually inaccurately.

 

[Valjean]

I smell a "liberal" bias. "Government takeover?"

 

[Father Heathen]

Sounds like a compliment....you running dog of capitalism, you!

When practiced fairly and ethically, I have no problem with capitalism. However, I also believe that some things should be socialized, like healthcare.