Leftist vs. Liberal

[Subduction Zone]

When practiced fairly and ethically, I have no problem with capitalism. However, I also believe that some things should be socialized, like healthcare.

We have seen that again and again. Sooner or later the government does a better job than private industry in many areas. People used to pay individually for fire protection. roads, education, even police and armed forces if you go back far enough were private. And with people getting better service for less money than in Europe it is only the right wing rhetoric that has kept us enslaved to insurance companies.

 

[Father Heathen]

We have seen that again and again. Sooner or later the government does a better job than private industry in many areas. People used to pay individually for fire protection. roads, education, even police and armed forces if you go back far enough were private. And with people getting better service for less money than in Europe it is only the right wing rhetoric that has kept us enslaved to insurance companies.

It's sad how easily people are deceived and manipulated into voting against their own interests.

 

[Estro Felino]

We have seen that again and again. Sooner or later the government does a better job than private industry in many areas. People used to pay individually for fire protection. roads, education, even police and armed forces if you go back far enough were private. And with people getting better service for less money than in Europe it is only the right wing rhetoric that has kept us enslaved to insurance companies.

It's a matter of mentality.
We descend from the French revolution, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.

So...it doesn't matter if there are no rich billionaires among us...all the matter is that we are all equal, economically. Even if the income is small. All that matter is that we have all the same small income. We are a community of equal people who fight for Common Good.

Light years away from the USA. Where the mentality is: the goal is to become a billionaire. So the presence of billionaires is comforting for the American citizen...it doesn't matter if there are so many homeless people in SF and in LA...all that matters is that there are billionaires' mansions.
Right?


We have a totally opposed vision of life.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's a matter of mentality.
We descend from the French revolution, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.

So...it doesn't matter if there are no rich billionaires among us...all the matter is that we are all equal, economically. Even if the income is small. All that matter is that we have all the same small income. We are a community of equal people who fight for Common Good.

Light years away from the USA. Where the mentality is: the goal is to become a billionaire. So the presence of billionaires is comforting for the American citizen...it doesn't matter if there are so many homeless people in SF and in LA...all that matters is that there are billionaires' mansions.
Right?


We have a totally opposed vision of life.

Weren't you recently simping for Musk?

 

[Augustus]

The terms "right wing" and "left wing" are highly variable depending on which country one is talking about, which side you need Hitler to belong to

The continual need for Hitlering the other side is a good example of how the terms are very much in the eye of the beholder.

Hitler was left/right wing because he advocated ABC!
NOOOOOOOO.... us left/right wing folk believe XYZ, so Hitler is definitely not one of us!

I know we all use them as a convenient shorthand, but the terms are so low resolution that they encourage facile and reductive thinking, especially 'clustering' of ideas which is a terrible problem in contemporary politics (Clustering as in the assumption that because someone supports Idea X which is "right wing" they must also support ideas A, B, C, D and E because they are also "right wing" because one must be "right wing" or "left wing" or occasionally a "centrist")

 

[Estro Felino]

Weren't you recently simping for Musk?

Yes.
But I said something completely different.
How Americans envision society.

 

[Father Heathen]

Yes.
But I said something completely different.
How Americans envision society.

Perhaps you're projecting your own love of Musk, Trump, and other such billionaires upon Americans?

Your depiction of America is rather bizarre, regardless.

 

[Heyo]

but many Islamist groups actually tend to be economically leftist in a few key ways, such as their staunch support for a strong welfare state and belief in a greater social responsibility for wealthy people.

... and the ban of interest lending, a key component of western capitalism.

 

[Heyo]

The continual need for Hitlering the other side is a good example of how the terms are very much in the eye of the beholder.

Hitler was left/right wing because he advocated ABC!
NOOOOOOOO.... us left/right wing folk believe XYZ, so Hitler is definitely not one of us!

I know we all use them as a convenient shorthand, but the terms are so low resolution that they encourage facile and reductive thinking, especially 'clustering' of ideas which is a terrible problem in contemporary politics (Clustering as in the assumption that because someone supports Idea X which is "right wing" they must also support ideas A, B, C, D and E because they are also "right wing" because one must be "right wing" or "left wing" or occasionally a "centrist")

The sad thing is that many do not only apply that to the "other side" but also to themselves. That's how pigeonholing became a thing and it is accurate more often than not. People, on the left as well as on the right, get their ideas talking points from the media advocates of their leaning. That saves them thinking and ensures consistency within the ranks.
That may not be so visible here on RF as we are a self selected group who actually likes to think and debate (mostly, exceptions exist and are mostly on the right side). But you can be quite sure that the average Joe, wearing a MAGA cap, got all his world views from FOX.

 

[PureX]

Given the present climate, I try never to use any of those terms as they only serve to reinforce divisions that are already way, WAY too entrenched in our language. There are no "leftists", or "liberals", or "rightists" or "conservatives". Those words refer to social and political POSITIONS, not to people. People are far more complex then that, and can adopt various positions on various subjects simultaneously. I know I certainly do. Ignoring that only encourages bias and bigotry, by my observation.

 

[Estro Felino]

Given the present climate, I try never to use any of those terms as they only serve to reinforce divisions that are already way, WAY too entrenched in our language. There are no "leftists", or "liberals", or "rightists" or "conservatives". Those words refer to social and political POSITIONS, not to people. People are far more complex then that, and can adopt various positions on various subjects simultaneously. I know I certainly do. Ignoring that only encourages bias and bigotry, by my observation.

Of course in the US there is no such a thing as Left or Right, because these two notions were invented by the First French Republic which was created many years after the birth of the United States, in Europe.
On the basis of the Assembée Nationale.

So... in the US there are two parties which are both extremely liberal but cannot be classified with the same categories that we Europeans invented.
It's impossible.
Some speculate it's the same party...the only difference is that the GOP defends traditional family values and the Christian identity of the country, whereas the Dems focus on LGBT, 24/7.

 

[Revoltingest]

When practiced fairly and ethically, I have no problem with capitalism. However, I also believe that some things should be socialized, like healthcare.

Health care isn't the means of production though.
Government can provide it without it being "socialism".
However, is government capable of being fair, ethical,
& competent? On occasion. But when it's not, I'd like
private care as an alternative.

VA denies veteran's claim, says heart attack is not an ‘emergency’

Seven years after Congress passed a law reforming the scandal-plagued Veterans' Healthcare Administration, the VA appears to have made a great deal of progress. But there are still many veterans getting caught in a bind.

www.fox13news.com

VA hospital turned away dying vet when they couldn't verify his military service

A Veterans Affairs hospital in Florida refused to provide emergency care to a veteran who was dying of heart failure because hospital staff could not

americanmilitarynews.com

BTW, government grants its providers immunity from
suits. There's far less accountability than private docs.

 

[Estro Felino]

The continual need for Hitlering the other side is a good example of how the terms are very much in the eye of the beholder.

Hitler was left/right wing because he advocated ABC!
NOOOOOOOO.... us left/right wing folk believe XYZ, so Hitler is definitely not one of us!

I know we all use them as a convenient shorthand, but the terms are so low resolution that they encourage facile and reductive thinking, especially 'clustering' of ideas which is a terrible problem in contemporary politics (Clustering as in the assumption that because someone supports Idea X which is "right wing" they must also support ideas A, B, C, D and E because they are also "right wing" because one must be "right wing" or "left wing" or occasionally a "centrist")

There's also the Reductio ad Trumpum.
As you can see in post #27.

Reductio ad Hitlerum...and ad Trumpum.

 

[Estro Felino]

Government can provide it without it being "socialism".

Yes, the US Government can provide it, without being socialistic.
Before 2050, possibly.

However, is government capable of being fair & ethical?

Always. The State spends public money on building schools, motorways, railways and hospitals.
Privates will spend their billions on disgusting stuff: hookers and gambling.

 

[Colt]

Health care isn't the means of production though.
Government can provide it without it being "socialism".
However, is government capable of being fair, ethical,
& competent? On occasion. But when it's not, I'd like
private care as an alternative.

VA denies veteran's claim, says heart attack is not an ‘emergency’

Seven years after Congress passed a law reforming the scandal-plagued Veterans' Healthcare Administration, the VA appears to have made a great deal of progress. But there are still many veterans getting caught in a bind.

www.fox13news.com

VA hospital turned away dying vet when they couldn't verify his military service

A Veterans Affairs hospital in Florida refused to provide emergency care to a veteran who was dying of heart failure because hospital staff could not

americanmilitarynews.com

BTW, government grants its providers immunity from
suits. There's less accountability than private docs.

In America the fed.gov can't even manage its own finances, but the theory is that it could manage a national healthcare system more efficiently and with a better quality of outcomes then the private sector. Under the coming nationalized healthcare system when the inevitable problems arise those problems will be politically mitigated.

 

[Revoltingest]

Always.

Strong your faith in government is, my young padawan.

 

[Estro Felino]

Strong your faith in government is, my young padawan.

Absolutely not. I don't have it.
But I believe in a God that will judge very, very, very harshly.
He will judge how these people managed public money.

 

[Revoltingest]

In America the fed.gov can't even manage its own finances, but the theory is that it could manage a national healthcare system more efficiently and with a better quality of outcomes then the private sector. Under the coming nationalized healthcare system when the inevitable problems arise those problems will be politically mitigated.

Imagine the effects if the entire health care system
is government run. When there's a strike, it's
catastrophic failure of the whole thing.
Kaiser Permanente is on strike, & yet my services
aren't interrupted in the least.
Liberals dream that centralization means that "good"
will be everywhere. They should consider that "bad"
will spread just as easily. I like distributed systems.

 

[Revoltingest]

Absolutely not. I don't have it.

But you said government is "always"
fair, ethical, & competent.
Were you thinking of Mussolini?

 

[Father Heathen]

Absolutely not. I don't have it.
But I believe in a God that will judge very, very, very harshly.
He will judge how these people managed public money.

Will your God also judge tyrants, terrorists, war criminals, traffickers, and rapists very, very, very harshly?