Leftist vs. Liberal

[Estro Felino]

Will your God also judge tyrants, terrorists, war criminals, traffickers, and rapists very, very, very harshly?

Much more harshly than the aforementioned.

 

[Estro Felino]

But you said government is "always"
fair, ethical, & competent.
Were you thinking of Mussolini?

Mussolini has never wanted the salary that is normally guaranteed to every Prime Minister.
Speaks volumes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Mussolini has never wanted the salary that is normally guaranteed to every Prime Minister.
Speaks volumes.

No wonder Italians made him a saint.

 

[Estro Felino]

No wonder Italians made him a saint.

For example...in the US they bring Confederation statues down.
In Italy no Mussolinian monument has ever been touched.

 

[Valjean]

In America the fed.gov can't even manage its own finances, but the theory is that it could manage a national healthcare system more efficiently and with a better quality of outcomes then the private sector. Under the coming nationalized healthcare system when the inevitable problems arise those problems will be politically mitigated.

There are examples and patterns they could imitate from all over the world. Almost anything would be an improvement. Just keep the profiteers at bay.

 

[Valjean]

Imagine the effects if the entire health care system
is government run. When there's a strike, it's
catastrophic failure of the whole thing.
Kaiser Permanente is on strike, & yet my services
aren't interrupted in the least.
Liberals dream that centralization means that "good"
will be everywhere. They should consider that "bad"
will spread just as easily. I like distributed systems.

Government run? Not all alternatives are government run. Only the American VA and British NHS come to mind.

 

[PureX]

Of course in the US there is no such a thing as Left or Right, because these two notions were invented by the First French Republic which was created many years after the birth of the United States, in Europe.

"Left" and "right" are words that refer to direction and can be used to characterize the movement or position of all kinds of things.

So... in the US there are two parties which are both extremely liberal...

That's patently false by every possible metric.

... but cannot be classified with the same categories that we Europeans invented.

Sorry to burst your egocentric bubble but Europeans didn't invent language. And anyway, most Americans came from Europe and brought their language and ideas with them.

Some speculate it's the same party...the only difference is that the GOP defends traditional family values and the Christian identity of the country, whereas the Dems focus on LGBT, 24/7.

They aren't the same party and they don't have the same goals, but they are both being bought and paid for by the corporate oligarchy, so in that sense they do behave as the same entity.

 

[Estro Felino]

That's patently false by every possible metric.

Elaborate.
They are identical: they both roll red carpets at speculators and bankers.
What differentiates them?

Sorry to burst your egocentric bubble but Europeans didn't invent language. And anyway, most Americans came from Europe and brought their language and ideas with them.

When the French Revolution broke out, the US had already been founded.

They aren't the same party and they don't have the same goals, but they are both being bought and paid for by the corporate oligarchy, so in that sense they do behave as the same entity.

That's exactly what I meant.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Of course in the US there is no such a thing as Left or Right, because these two notions were invented by the First French Republic which was created many years after the birth of the United States, in Europe.
On the basis of the Assembée Nationale.

So... in the US there are two parties which are both extremely liberal but cannot be classified with the same categories that we Europeans invented.
It's impossible.
Some speculate it's the same party...the only difference is that the GOP defends traditional family values and the Christian identity of the country, whereas the Dems focus on LGBT, 24/7.

Not only is that a gross, gross oversimplification, it's also mostly nonsense.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not only is that a gross, gross oversimplification, it's also mostly nonsense.

Because I am not an American...of course I am wrong.
But when someone is wrong, people correct them.
They don't just say: "you're wrong".

They will say the correct answer. What are these parties?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Because I am not an American...of course I am wrong.
But when someone is wrong, people correct them.
They don't just say: "you're wrong".

They will say the correct answer. What are these parties?

I'm not American , either.

You said, " the GOP defends traditional family values and the Christian identity of the country, whereas the Dems focus on LGBT, 24/7." So ask yourself, how many Democratic states have passed laws negatively affecting LGBTQ persons versus how many Republican states have done so. Being fair, I suppose you should also ask yourself how many Democratic states have passed laws negatively affecting "traditional family values," versus how many Republican states.

Next, I'd ask you to explain this: how does permitting a gay couple to marry, and even adopt children, actually negatively affect any other family in America that is simply minding its own business? Does the existence of a gay man or a gay woman make being straight somehow lesser? Does the fact that the U.S. Secretary of Transportation is a man with a husband and 2 kids mean that all other families in the US are now less valuable? Surely even you can see that is complete nonsense.

 

[Bthoth]

Hello. Here's something that I thought would make for interesting discussion, given some people's tendency to conflate the two:

Leftist vs Liberal: Key Differences (US Politicians Listed)

The terms "leftist" and "liberal" differ depending upon the context. In American political discourse, they represent two competing perspectives on the left side of the political aisle. Generally, liberal is used to refer to center-left

helpfulprofessor.com

I often ask people to look up the meanings of the words without the political distinction.

Liberal....

• Generous and abundant in actions and amount
• (in politics) Open to and in favor of progressive values, social reform, and broader interpretation of legal doctrines
• (in education) Concerned with a well-rounded intelligence or learning in the humanities

Conservative
a: tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : TRADITIONAL
conservative policies

b: marked by moderation or caution
a conservative estimate

c: marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners



The definitions have been changed over time to be a noun versus adjectives. The 2 terms are adjectives and now ruined by politics and fools.

 

[Wu Wei]

For example...in the US they bring Confederation statues down.
In Italy no Mussolinian monument has ever been touched.

But the flesh and blood Mussolini didn't fair so well with the Italians in 1945. Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis faired a little better after the Civil war

 

[Revoltingest]

Government run? Not all alternatives are government run. Only the American VA and British NHS come to mind.

I prefer non-governmental run health care.
It's the kind of universal care I advocate here.

 

[fantome profane]

Health care isn't the means of production though.
Government can provide it without it being "socialism".

That is an interesting perspective. Would you say the same about education? What about infrastructure?

 

[Valjean]

Call it what you will, some things can be delivered, cheaper, better and more transparently as natural monopolies.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is an interesting perspective.

You mean reading dictionaries to get definitions?
I know...it's uncommon.

Would you say the same about education? What about infrastructure?

Yes.
Yes.

 

[fantome profane]

You mean reading dictionaries to get definitions?

You are not quite as cute as you think your are.

Seriously, there is a fine line between production, and a service that facilitates that production. That doesn't mean there isn't a line at all, but I found it interesting.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hello. Here's something that I thought would make for interesting discussion, given some people's tendency to conflate the two:

Leftist vs Liberal: Key Differences (US Politicians Listed)

The terms "leftist" and "liberal" differ depending upon the context. In American political discourse, they represent two competing perspectives on the left side of the political aisle. Generally, liberal is used to refer to center-left

helpfulprofessor.com

Sounds biased. Like a "government take over of healthcare." No, I think the state needs to provide oversight (hardly different than it does now) while insurance and profit have no room or place.
Equality of outcome is also not really much a thing and makes thise of us who are far Left appear very dumb and naive with that claim.
And, of course, many on the Left aren't liberals but still support Capitalism.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In Italy no Mussolinian monument has ever been touched.

You have managed to make me want to go there even less. And about the only I'd want to go for is to **** on the statues of Roman Ceasars.
Amd what I have to ask woulf be wrong with removing images that glorify a tyrant who fought along side Hitler? The Hitler everything is gone from the public view in Germany and no one has forgotten him.