Lefty loonies and liberals, what the hell happened to us?

[gsa]

If you cannot choose to understand that these words alone telegraph the fact that you are more likely white than of color, more likely male than female, more likely cis than trans, and more likely straight than gay or bi, then you and I are pretty much done. Seriously, there is no point in our going round and round any more without an honest and open acknowledgement of the various privileges you and I have. Statistically it's nearly impossible that you don't possess at least one of the aforementioned privileges. At least I can admit that I have them and deserve none of them.

Thanks for the name. I'll be sure to take a look.

Let me be clear: Neither of us have privileges. For you, being a heterosexual white male does not confer any special right, special advantage, or special immunity. Now, being gay, female or a person of color does come, or at a minimum can come with and is more likely to come with, with special social disadvantages and disparate treatment. Furthermore, you and I almost certainly agree that being gay, female or a person of color should not come with any social disadvantage. We probably also agree that being a black lesbian has a much greater probability of coming with multiple social disadvantages. And hopefully, we agree that black lesbians should have the same opportunities that white heterosexual men have.

But we are not beneficiaries of those social disadvantages. We do not gain from them. That is what your "privilege" implies, and that is wrong.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Let me be clear: Neither of us have privileges. For you, being a heterosexual white male does not confer any special right, special advantage, or special immunity.

Thanks for playing. Come back when you're ready to be honest about the privileges that society bestows upon you. Until then, we're done. Bye.

 

[gsa]

Thanks for playing. Come back when you're ready to be honest about the privileges that society bestows upon you. Until then, we're done. Bye.

See? I post something reasonable, and all I receive in return are juvenile insults.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No, you haven't advocated that perspective. But then, what is the very definition of privilege? "[A] special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people." Notice: Special right, special advantage, special immunity, not one generally available to all. The removal of a special advantage, a special right or a special immunity does not result in the end of oppression, if oppression is the state of not having this special advantage, right or immunity. It simply results in oppression for everyone.

Again, not my M.O. here. Expansion of rights, liberties, and protections. Not taking things away.

Unless the "you" in your posts are referring to a general "you", not specifically me.

If you want to end oppression, you work against oppression. You properly characterize the disadvantages as unjust weights that are unfairly added to members of marginalized groups. You don't characterize not being stopped by the police on a pretext as a special right, special advantage or special immunity.

Hmmmm....we're talking past each other again. Because I fight patriarchy. Not men. I fight to have my rights, liberties, and protections to be as high and as fair as men. Not to take men's rights, liberties, and protections away.

I use "privilege" to describe the phenomenon of the consistent denial of the disadvantages I have. I ask, "how is it that when I bring up an injustice against women, that in told I'm imagining things or that women are just a bunch of whiners?"

If privilege is inadequate, then what is a more useful term to describe that blind spot where men don't experience the very specific injustice that women experience? And also deny that the phenomenon exists?

What is that specific kind of denial called? What CAN we call it for the use of discourse?

 

[gsa]

Again, not my M.O. here. Expansion of rights, liberties, and protections. Not taking things away.

Unless the "you" in your posts are referring to a general "you", not specifically me.



Hmmmm....we're talking past each other again. Because I fight patriarchy. Not men. I fight to have my rights, liberties, and protections to be as high and as fair as men. Not to take men's rights, liberties, and protections away.

I use "privilege" to describe the phenomenon of the consistent denial of the disadvantages I have. I ask, "how is it that when I bring up an injustice against women, that in told I'm imagining things or that women are just a bunch of whiners?"

If privilege is inadequate, then what is a more useful term to describe that blind spot where men don't experience the very specific injustice that women experience? And also deny that the phenomenon exists?

What is that specific kind of denial called? What CAN we call it for the use of discourse?

Oppression, discrimination, intolerance...that's what the denial of justice is. As to what the blind spot is, it is just a blind spot. Not all people have that blind spot, of course; as annoying as Mercy Not Sacrifice is, I don't think that he is in denial about the existence of oppression.

But you are using privilege in a kind of unique way. Privilege is not generally regarded as the denial of the disadvantages, but as the existence of an advantage that is not enjoyed by other groups. Whether you see it or not, it exists.

 

[MD]

Lol, white people

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Oppression, discrimination, intolerance...that's what the denial of justice is. As to what the blind spot is, it is just a blind spot. Not all people have that blind spot, of course; as annoying as Mercy Not Sacrifice is, I don't think that he is in denial about the existence of oppression.

But you are using privilege in a kind of unique way. Privilege is not generally regarded as the denial of the disadvantages, but as the existence of an advantage that is not enjoyed by other groups. Whether you see it or not, it exists.

That's fair. Thanks.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Lol, white people

Well, what can I say? I'm still learning.

 

[Revoltingest]

Lol, white people

They're a....er....we're a mess!

 

[dust1n]

Let me be clear: Neither of us have privileges. For you, being a heterosexual white male does not confer any special right, special advantage, or special immunity. Now, being gay, female or a person of color does come, or at a minimum can come with and is more likely to come with, with special social disadvantages and disparate treatment. Furthermore, you and I almost certainly agree that being gay, female or a person of color should not come with any social disadvantage. We probably also agree that being a black lesbian has a much greater probability of coming with multiple social disadvantages. And hopefully, we agree that black lesbians should have the same opportunities that white heterosexual men have.

What exactly is the difference between person A having an advantage over person B, and person B having a disadvantage compared to person A?

 

[dust1n]

Lol, white people

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Cable news happened. That's what I think happened.

 

[dust1n]

Cable news happened. That's what I think happened.

That probably has a lot to do with it. Visual film altered propaganda and its effectiveness forever.

 

[Apex]

What exactly is the difference between person A having an advantage over person B, and person B having a disadvantage compared to person A?

The subject. Which can mean a lot more than you probably think.

 

[Revoltingest]

The subject. Which can mean a lot more than you probably think.

I can think of one Person-A (a friend) who has his white male privilege over Person-B (Oprah). Person-A was privileged to be sent to Viet Nam, where he was shot twice, nearly died twice, & still undergoes surgeries to fix a mangled limb. The less privileged Oprah cannot tell me what it's like to bleed out in a jungle...the overpowering feeling of being more tired than ever before.

What use is it to point at him & decry his "Privilege!"?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can think of one Person-A (a friend) who has his white male privilege over Person-B (Oprah). Person-A was privileged to be sent to Viet Nam, where he was shot twice, nearly died twice, & still undergoes surgeries to fix a mangled limb. The less privileged Oprah cannot tell me what it's like to bleed out in a jungle...the overpowering feeling of being more tired than ever before.

You still aren't understanding privilege. How many times have we told it isn't one specific person, but groups as a whole? Some transsexuals do find employment that pays very nicely that puts them in the top earners of America. Some have even become fashion models. This does not change the fact that MtF transsexuals, as a whole, are plagued with employment issues and very heavily negatively judged by appearance. If one were to look at pro-sports, one would think black people have it made, but this ignores the fact that black people are still, socially, not as equal as white people, whose whiteness is not a regular cause of social prejudice.

 

[Revoltingest]

You still aren't understanding privilege. How many times have we told it isn't one specific person, but groups as a whole? Some transsexuals do find employment that pays very nicely that puts them in the top earners of America. Some have even become fashion models. This does not change the fact that MtF transsexuals, as a whole, are plagued with employment issues and very heavily negatively judged by appearance. If one were to look at pro-sports, one would think black people have it made, but this ignores the fact that black people are still, socially, not as equal as white people, whose whiteness is not a regular cause of social prejudice.

I understand privilege. You just don't like my colorful examples showing why "privilege" is a useless concept. What matters is not that someone has it pretty good...what matters is that someone suffers, & it is that suffering which should be addressed.

Btw, trans people have the privilege of being exempt from the military draft. Is it significant that your "privilege" is far more valuable than the white male "privilege" of my friend? (I presume you never had Viet Cong or anyone else shoot you full of holes.) Yours is one helluva privilege in times of big wars.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Btw, trans people have the privilege of being exempt from the military draft. Is it significant that your "privilege" is far more valuable than the white male "privilege" of my friend? (I presume you never had Viet Cong or anyone else shoot you full of holes.) Yours is one helluva privilege in times of big wars.

I do not view that as a privilege. While no one should be forced to sign up for the draft or forced to go to war (unless defense purposes like some smaller nations have), no one should be excluded based on prejudice. It's no different than saying homosexuals were privileged for not being able to serve, even though this ban on service was based on prejudice. Kinda like how women were excluded, not because they are privileged to not be able to serve, but because of prejudice. If a transsexual, MtF or FtM, wants to serve there should be no restrictions based solely upon being trans.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not view that as a privilege. While no one should be forced to sign up for the draft or forced to go to war (unless defense purposes like some smaller nations have), no one should be excluded based on prejudice. It's no different than saying homosexuals were privileged for not being able to serve, even though this ban on service was based on prejudice. Kinda like how women were excluded, not because they are privileged to not be able to serve, but because of prejudice. If a transsexual, MtF or FtM, wants to serve there should be no restrictions based solely upon being trans.

And there's one of the problems with the "privilege perspective", ie, it overlooks disadvantages (even deadly ones) suffered by "privileged' groups. It causes injustices to be overlooked.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And there's one of the problems with the "privilege perspective", ie, it overlooks disadvantages (even deadly ones) suffered by "privileged' groups. It causes injustices to be overlooked.

How was that an overlooking of an injustice? I acknowledged early in my post that there should be no mandatory conscription, circumstances permitting of course. But when such measures must be taken, everyone of sound mind and healthy body should be considered.
What about what you done, and declared being discriminated against a privilege? And what of the transpeople who have served? Obviously not openly, but they have/do serve, having to sacrifice themselves in more ways than normal in order to do so.