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Lefty loonies and liberals, what the hell happened to us?

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I presume then that you won't object to the term "feminazi", since it accurately describes some feminists, & we wouldn't want to avoid the truth just to spare feelings.

Oh, it's been used before many times here and elsewhere. It's a laughable term, as it's used by reactionaries and shock jocks and MRA's to describe the Angry Feminist stereotype.

Kind of like how engineers don't really feel insulted by the Ugly Nerd Weakling stereotype.

Both are laughable. And desperate. I'm not offended by the term "Female Gaze" at all. I'm not even offended by the term "Matriarchy" or "Female Privilege". I don't see it, but it doesn't make me bristle. I don't see the offense in it.

Do egalitarians get offended by somebody saying that this is most definitely "A Man's World"?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's intriguing that you believe the word "feminazi" (which is commonly used to compare feminists to a group of criminals who began a war that murdered 50 million people) "accurately describes some feminists" while at the same time believing yourself to be more or less objective and fair-minded.
You should look up "sarchasm".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Oh, it's been used before many times here and elsewhere. It's a laughable term, as it's used by reactionaries and shock jocks and MRA's to describe the Angry Feminist stereotype.
Kind of like how engineers don't really feel insulted by the Ugly Nerd Weakling stereotype.
Both are laughable. And desperate. I'm not offended by the term "Female Gaze" at all. I'm not even offended by the term "Matriarchy" or "Female Privilege". I don't see it, but it doesn't make me bristle. I don't see the offense in it.
Do egalitarians get offended by somebody saying that this is most definitely "A Man's World"?
People on both sides have their shock language, fanatical feminists included. It seems the most vociferous elements are destined to only talk at each other, rather than with each other. Detente is elusive.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I have two examples of where one personal difficulty was far greater than another one. If one wishes to generalize and see no contrast in social and psychological impact of difficult childhood and disappointing parents to fearing for ones own life, then there really is nowhere else to go.
If one wants to dismiss the trials & tribulations of others because one's own troubles are so all consuming, then there really is nowhere else to go. Life can be tough, not just for you & certain granfalloons.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I don't think accusations of "privilege" ever serve the cause of civil discussion.

I actually agree with this, not because I find the term to be entirely without merit, but because it shuts down conversation.

As does "feminazi," or "militant feminist," I might add.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I actually agree with this, not because I find the term to be entirely without merit, but because it shuts down conversation.

As does "feminazi," or "militant feminist," I might add.
"Militant feminist" might serve a useful role, as does "militant atheist" when describing a subset who are quite vocal. But care should be exercised. "Feminazi" certainly does offer little potential to foster civil discussion!
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I actually agree with this, not because I find the term to be entirely without merit, but because it shuts down conversation.

As does "feminazi," or "militant feminist," I might add.

Perhaps because I see "privilege" is not directed as a character trait, but as a social phenomenon, is why I disagree. One can be a militant feminist. One can possess privilege.

I can have privilege.

Can I have feminazi?

:p
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Perhaps because I see "privilege" is not directed as a character trait, but as a social phenomenon, is why I disagree. One can be a militant feminist. One can possess privilege.

I can have privilege.

Can I have feminazi?

:p

No, no one can have feminazi. Except female Nazis.

"Militant feminist" might serve a useful role, as does "militant atheist" when describing a subset who are quite vocal. But care should be exercised. "Feminazi" certainly does offer little potential to foster civil discussion!

I think that "militant" is unduly suggestive of aggression. Is not "vocal atheist" or "vocal feminist" or even "radical atheist" or "radical feminist" more to the point?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, no one can have feminazi. Except female Nazis.
I think that "militant" is unduly suggestive of aggression. Is not "vocal atheist" or "vocal feminist" or even "radical atheist" or "radical feminist" more to the point?
Those could be the better choice. It depends upon reception & applicability. I've seen militant atheists whose activism is over the top. I prefer that term to "fundamentalist atheist".

Story time:
I once used the term "tranny" as a neutral, & even affectionate term. But I had my doubts about it, so I decided to post a poll to see how trans folk felt. They consider "tranny" a pejorative term, so now I use "trans" instead. I believe that we should convey our individual "truth" in a manner which makes it about the issues, & minimizes offense. I find it odd that this is disputed.
 
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gsa

Well-Known Member
Those could be the better choice. It depends upon reception & applicability. I've seen militant atheists whose activism is over the top. I prefer that term to "fundamentalist atheist".

As you like. I just think that the term "militant" is too vague and prone to be taken offensively. The religious right often has materials that refer to "militant homosexuals" and "militant atheists," by which they mean: homosexuals and atheists, although they deny it.

Story time:
I once used the term "tranny" as a neutral, & even affectionate term. But I had my doubts about it, so I decided to post a poll to see how trans folk felt. They consider "tranny" a pejorative term, so now I use "trans" instead. I believe that we should convey our individual "truth" in a manner which makes it about the issues, & minimizes offense. I find it odd that this is disputed.

I agree.

And this is one of the problems with "privilege," although it is not the only problem (you won’t agree with the socialist critique of privilege obviously). I don’t think that it is being used solely to convey information or to have reasoned discussions. I think that the concept can be explained without resort to accusations of personal privilege or assumptions of defensiveness upon disagreement.

But that’s not the way that I see the concept being used. It seems that the "privilege" discussions are, more often than not, meant to solidify the bonds between the converted and create an elevated moral status for the true believer. It is similar to the way that Palestinian rights activists employ the apartheid analogy; it is not so much that there is nothing to the analogy (I think that there is). The problem is that calling Israel an "apartheid state" is, standing alone, simply a slogan that conveys little to no information, but it helps cement a certain view of the conflict among activists.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
As you like. I just think that the term "militant" is too vague and prone to be taken offensively. The religious right often has materials that refer to "militant homosexuals" and "militant atheists," by which they mean: homosexuals and atheists, although they deny it.
It's certainly of limited utility. I prefer "fervent feminist" to "militant feminist" just for the alliteration.
And this is one of the problems with "privilege," although it is not the only problem (you won’t agree with the socialist critique of privilege obviously). I don’t think that it is being used solely to convey information or to have reasoned discussions. I think that the concept can be explained without resort to accusations of personal privilege or assumptions of defensiveness upon disagreement.

But that’s not the way that I see the concept being used. It seems that the "privilege" discussions are, more often than not, meant to solidify the bonds between the converted and create an elevated moral status for the true believer. It is similar to the way that Palestinian rights activists employ the apartheid analogy; it is not so much that there is nothing to the analogy (I think that there is). The problem is that calling Israel an "apartheid state" is, standing alone, simply a slogan that conveys little to no information, but it helps cement a certain view of the conflict among activists.
Aye!
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
As you like. I just think that the term "militant" is too vague and prone to be taken offensively. The religious right often has materials that refer to "militant homosexuals" and "militant atheists," by which they mean: homosexuals and atheists, although they deny it.



I agree.

And this is one of the problems with "privilege," although it is not the only problem (you won’t agree with the socialist critique of privilege obviously). I don’t think that it is being used solely to convey information or to have reasoned discussions. I think that the concept can be explained without resort to accusations of personal privilege or assumptions of defensiveness upon disagreement.

But that’s not the way that I see the concept being used. It seems that the "privilege" discussions are, more often than not, meant to solidify the bonds between the converted and create an elevated moral status for the true believer. It is similar to the way that Palestinian rights activists employ the apartheid analogy; it is not so much that there is nothing to the analogy (I think that there is). The problem is that calling Israel an "apartheid state" is, standing alone, simply a slogan that conveys little to no information, but it helps cement a certain view of the conflict among activists.

It isn't perfect, but I find it far more useful as a definition of a socio-cultural phenomenon than an amorphous paragraph of verbiage. For me, it offers a clarification. Otherwise, one becomes trapped in a debate with those who disagree as even in existence in the first place.

I have found the amorphous verbiage without clarification to perpetuate the denials of inequality rather than people listening to each other.

"Victim mentality" or "playing the victim" or "cult of victimhood" is thrown out far more often toward people like me who attempt to define demographic hardships without defining it in any one term. And the message is lost. I then am told I'm just whining and that I just don't see reality that well.

"Privilege" is not and never is intended as an attack. I can think of far better and more potent forms of attack but will save them for somebody committed to hurting me maliciously. "Privilege" is an explanation that is the most innocuous at the moment for this phenomenon of denying validity from others toward - for instance - my experience as a woman.

I don't ask "How can I get them back? Oh I know..I'll say privilege and growl a lot!"

I ask "Why is it that my experiences are consistently invalidated over and over again by people who have better odds in the public and private spheres overall than I do? Saying I'm not working hard enough is insulting, condescending, and untrue. So what else can it be?...Privilege offers an explanation for such."

Again, it isn't perfect IMO, but I think it's the best working definition so far. If anyone has a better term that is more innocuous and less of an affront, but also maintains the integrity of acknowledging these marginalizations, I'm open to hearing it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Other than "victim mentality" or "victimhood", what term would best describe someone who overstates or is obsessed with a plight? These terms can certainly be as abusively wielded as "privilege" & others.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Other than "victim mentality" or "victimhood", what term would best describe someone who overstates or is obsessed with a plight? These terms can certainly be as abusively wielded as "privilege" & others.

Take the plight in the first place as real, first. So far in the problem conversations, they're not acknowledged as even in existence.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
It isn't perfect, but I find it far more useful as a definition of a socio-cultural phenomenon than an amorphous paragraph of verbiage. For me, it offers a clarification. Otherwise, one becomes trapped in a debate with those who disagree as even in existence in the first place.

I have found the amorphous verbiage without clarification to perpetuate the denials of inequality rather than people listening to each other.

But "privilege" isn't well-defined, and we are sometimes told that only members of marginalized groups are allowed to define it, which also begs the question: Who are the marginalized groups? Why is their definition given presumptive validity?

Clearly, members of historically marginalized groups are capable of explaining what is meant by "privilege." And privilege is not at all obvious; in fact the whole point of the concept is that privilege is largely invisible to the "privileged."

But let me give you an example of something that is identified as "white privilege" that is not wholly explained by white indifference or animus: the crack ("cocaine base") and cocaine powder sentencing disparity. In fact, many black politicians in Congress (including the Congressional Black Caucus) supported the sentencing disparity, and they also sought more funding for law enforcement activities within their districts. At the time it was unclear what the long term consequences of these actions would be.

My point here is not to condemn the Congressional Black Caucus or to suggest that the disparate impact is insignificant; it is a terrible injustice. But does "white privilege" explain this disparity, or is the actual explanation more nuanced?


"Privilege" is not and never is intended as an attack. I can think of far better and more potent forms of attack but will save them for somebody committed to hurting me maliciously. "Privilege" is an explanation that is the most innocuous at the moment for this phenomenon of denying validity from others toward - for instance - my experience as a woman.

It is not intended as an attack when you use it, but there are people who use it as an attack. The phrase "check your privilege" may not always be intended as an attack, but it can just as easily convey the message of "shut your mouth ignorant fool" as it conveys "please take a moment to reflect on how your social status impacts your own perspective."

I don't ask "How can I get them back? Oh I know..I'll say privilege and growl a lot!"

I ask "Why is it that my experiences are consistently invalidated over and over again by people who have better odds in the public and private spheres overall than I do? Saying I'm not working hard enough is insulting, condescending, and untrue. So what else can it be?...Privilege offers an explanation for such."

The terms "perspective" and "status" are just as likely to convey that, though; so why is privilege preferred? Presumably, because it is a qualifier: "privileged perspective" and "privileged status." But that also makes the refusal to include the class category completely inexplicable. Moreover, "privilege" is used to imply some sort of moral quality, when the actual examples of privilege have nothing to do with the actions of particular individuals. You have privilege because of your social status, not based on anything that you have done, not because of any sins of omission or commission. How does one "check" this privilege in conversation? Revisiting assumptions? Then why not simply explain how a certain status confers a certain perspective?

Again, it isn't perfect IMO, but I think it's the best working definition so far. If anyone has a better term that is more innocuous and less of an affront, but also maintains the integrity of acknowledging these marginalizations, I'm open to hearing it.

Socially advantageous status. Or alternatively, socially disadvantaged status. Or better yet, just explain.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
But "privilege" isn't well-defined, and we are sometimes told that only members of marginalized groups are allowed to define it, which also begs the question: Who are the marginalized groups? Why is their definition given presumptive validity?

Most of history is written by the winners of battle, no? Because of this, much of society is defined by those who hold these advantages. The Bible was written by men who saw women in a very disparaging way, and therefore defined our value according to how they saw us.

We have to define ourselves at some point by our own terms. Take back the terms "*****", "whore", and "****" and empower these words rather than allow the advantaged to utilize them to define our value based on a behavior or dress or speech that places us outside the gender norm.

There has to be ownership of value somewhere. Again, it's not perfect, but it has to start somewhere. I'm open to newer terms if it's pragmatic and ethical to all.

Clearly, members of historically marginalized groups are capable of explaining what is meant by "privilege." And privilege is not at all obvious; in fact the whole point of the concept is that privilege is largely invisible to the "privileged."

Agreed.

But let me give you an example of something that is identified as "white privilege" that is not wholly explained by white indifference or animus: the crack ("cocaine base") and cocaine powder sentencing disparity. In fact, many black politicians in Congress (including the Congressional Black Caucus) supported the sentencing disparity, and they also sought more funding for law enforcement activities within their districts. At the time it was unclear what the long term consequences of these actions would be.

My point here is not to condemn the Congressional Black Caucus or to suggest that the disparate impact is insignificant; it is a terrible injustice. But does "white privilege" explain this disparity, or is the actual explanation more nuanced?

I'd call that phenomenon an example of internalized racism. People have been known before to loathe their own genetic makeup. And blacks and women are no different. Take Phyllis Schlafly, for example.

It is not intended as an attack when you use it, but there are people who use it as an attack. The phrase "check your privilege" may not always be intended as an attack, but it can just as easily convey the message of "shut your mouth ignorant fool" as it conveys "please take a moment to reflect on how your social status impacts your own perspective."

The terms "perspective" and "status" are just as likely to convey that, though; so why is privilege preferred?

LOL I've been on both ends of this IRL so I can give my anecdotes fwiw. ;)

"Check your privilege is rarely rarely ever used at the beginning of these conversations. One example is that at a feminist group locally there was an issue brought up about women being sexually harassed at the gym, and so we began discussing solutions for creating other fitness programs and locations for alleviating the problem.

One guy butted in and said, "Look. I'm a man. I like to look at women. Admit that you like being looked at, because otherwise why would you be working out and wearing what you wear? I don't care what you say, I'm not gonna stop staring. If you're uncomfortable, when does it start being YOUR problem? Why do *I* have to change being a normal red-blooded man?"

So for a long long time, gay men, trans women, trans men, and women in the group used this exact same language you suggested. Every single response was met with an accusation that we as women weren't facing the truth.

There was no - and I mean NO - acknowledgement that he was speaking for himself. He broadened his POV to all of humanity. AND he began telling us that if we were real feminists, we would agree with him because science, or something.

The arguments and accusations got bigger. Louder. More aggressive. Nothing was helping. It was finally said calmly, "Dude, look. Check your privilege or leave the conversation. You aren't helping women solve the problem of sexual harassment at the gym. You're trying to speak for all men. Not cool."

De-escalation techniques weren't working. Humor wasn't working. Evidence wasn't working. This man was becoming more and more aggressive at all other methods.

So in this sense, it IS considered harsh. But he calmed down and stopped telling everybody they weren't seeing the truth.

Presumably, because it is a qualifier: "privileged perspective" and "privileged status." But that also makes the refusal to include the class category completely inexplicable. Moreover, "privilege" is used to imply some sort of moral quality, when the actual examples of privilege have nothing to do with the actions of particular individuals. You have privilege because of your social status, not based on anything that you have done, not because of any sins of omission or commission. How does one "check" this privilege in conversation? Revisiting assumptions? Then why not simply explain how a certain status confers a certain perspective?

As exemplified above, I think it's best use as a defense mechanism against aggressive "truth-speakers" who believe they know what is best for all of us. Especially those who are more advantaged speaking to those who are less advantaged.

Socially advantageous status. Or alternatively, socially disadvantaged status. Or better yet, just explain.

Well been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it. Let me know if it works for you. I haven't yet.
 
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