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Legitimate reasons not to believe in God

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
If something exists outside time then our science would say it experiences no time. No experience, moments, causality, thoughts, no time, no change..
"Our science" cannot speak for itself .. you speak for it. :)

Of course these concepts about outside of the universe are a mystery because it's unknown it such a thing even exists or what type of conditions would exist?
Naturally, it cannot be physically observed, but our minds can understand the concept of eternity without any difficulty.

One cannot "see time", one can only measure it relative to space.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
" You didn't say "quotes" "

OK, now kindly give quotes from (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah in first person and in an unambiguous, unequivocal and straightforward manner, please, that:

(Jesus) Yeshua did not die a cursed death on the Cross.

Right?
Kindly remain focused on Yeshua's words for the claims and gist of reasons given, one's reasons may not reflect as if one is making a new religion that is not supported by Yeshua, please, right?

Regards
Uh what?

In the story, which is a myth, Jesus is crucified? In the Inanna myth she is killed and hung in the underworld on a hook and resurrects in 3 days giving salvation to the followers of the religion.

Every myth says it happened, that's what a story/myth IS????
We know it's a myth because there is no evidence it happened, Gods don't exist, and the theology is copied from Persian and Greek mythology.

Mark didn't write a savior demigod story and then say "Jesus was actually never really crucified"???????? No more than a Zalmoxis myth was written and says "Zalmoxis wasn't really killed and resurrected, it's just a myth"......????????????

Supernatural stories are not real. Especially when everythiung in them is just taken from other older myths? I am completely confused by what you are asking?

Lord of the Rings says Bilbo threw the one ring into MT Doom, it didn't really happen. But nowhere in the story does it say "Bilbo didn't really throw the ring in Mt Doom because this story is made up."

Is that what you are looking for??????
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
"Our science" cannot speak for itself .. you speak for it. :)

Yes I studied science, as I said (what did I say), outside of the universe we don't know, read again..........don't know. DON'T KNOW.

However, the only mechanism we know of to create time is to have what we have. Spacetime, 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time.

Why is this still being talked about?




Naturally, it cannot be physically observed, but our minds can understand the concept of eternity without any difficulty.

One cannot "see time", one can only measure it relative to space.


I don't know if we understand it fully. Like infinity we have some understanding of it. I don't know how full of an understanding it is. What is the point exactly?

We cannot really "see" much, just photons hitting our eyes and the brain makes an image from that.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Theologians who don't study history will disagree without evidence because it conflicts with their beliefs. Exactly like what's happening in this thread..
No .. you cannot prove that Moses did not exist.

The best that you can do, is show that the Biblical accounts in the OT are not accurate.

These are not cherry-picked scholars..
They are, if they are making conclusions that Moses did not exist..

All scholars in historical fields say scripture is re-worked Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Babylonian myths and later Greek, Persian, Roman myths. That's it..
Well they are ignorant then. They are making conclusions about God's existence without proper knowledge.
They should stick to history, and leave others to make their own conclusions.

First your own thoughts may be clouded by confirmation bias, lack of education, bias towards a religion..
Ha ha :D

Oh, yeah that isn't evidence., Your beliefs in magic isn't evidence of magic..
There you go..
You say that you are not biased .. do not have preconceived ideas .. and then tell me that belief is wu-wu. :D

..and then you strengthen your disbelief in God with reference to historians who think like you do.

Moses is a prophet of God. Pharaoh and his army were drowned while they were chasing the children of Israel.

I choose to believe God .. you choose disbelieving historians.

That pretty much sums it up, I would say.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No .. you cannot prove that Moses did not exist.

The best that you can do, is show that the Biblical accounts in the OT are not accurate.

No way. You have circled back to this. OMG, now I have to explain, AGAIN, no deity can be shown to not exist. Krishna can not be proven to not exist. Santa Clause cannot be proven to not exist.

We look at evidence. If you read Thomas Thompsons History of the Patriarchial Narratives, you will see massive amounts of evidence they are literary creations.

I showed several Egyptian myths that were also used for the life of Moses. Laws on rocks from a God, put in a basket in a river, magic rod turns into snake, and so on. All Egyptian myths. Similar Moses lawgivers existed in Egyptian religions.

Evidence. You look at the evidence if you care about what is true. If you want to live in a fantasy world, you just believe what a myth tells you.


They are, if they are making conclusions that Moses did not exist..

All historical scholars who are OT specialists say the Moses of scripture is a myth.




No the evidence makes that conclusion." J. Van Seters concluded that 'the quest for the historical Moses is a futile exercise. He now belongs only to legend.'"



Well they are ignorant then. They are making conclusions about God's existence without proper knowledge.
They should stick to history, and leave others to make their own conclusions.

Well that settles it then. You have debunked yourself. Thankyou. Your stance is that experts on historical knowledge don't have proper knowledge.

However, each individual, depending on beliefs (often myths, stories, religious folk-lore) should be making the descision.

So first this shows you do not care about what is true, just about what you want to be true. Second it shows you want a world where there are no facts, everyone with a religious belief is correct.
Bahai are correct and have the latest prophet who updated Islam, all Bahai can believe taht, not on evidence, they don't need evidence, they just have to buy into the Bahai myth. And millions do.

Cool, I see where you are coming from. Fantasybeliefs trump facts. Cool, bye. That's all I needed to know.




Even better, above you say rather than listen to historical experts we should allow our personal confirmation bias and lack of education to decide what is true.
Then you laugh at the idea, effectively laughing at yourself. You not only do I win. You also win by beating yourself. You are so easy to win in a debate that you just beat yourself.



There you go..
You say that you are not biased .. do not have preconceived ideas .. and then tell me that belief is wu-wu. :D

Your belief is wu-wu if you don't have good evidence. Is the Bahai prophet wu? You think so. Guess what, so are you.

Back your beliefs with good evidence or your beliefs are wu. But it's been established above that you support wu. You discourage scholars and historical infirmation so random beliefs without evidence can be the deciding factor.

You cannot backpeddle that. You want wu-wu beliefs to be the standard.




..and then you strengthen your disbelief in God with reference to historians who think like you do.

No this has nothing to do with God. God has the least evidence ever. This is about stories. The stories also have no evidence and are mythological fiction.

But there is no evidence of God from any science or any reliable method. There is no evidence of any of these stories. Historians just explain these are syncretic stories. That is one line of evidence. SO YES, I accept any form of evidence that is reliable.

You, do not. Which is why you believe in wu-wu stories and ideas.



Moses is a prophet of God. Pharaoh and his army were drowned while they were chasing the children of Israel.


Exodus is a myth with zero evidence. Bilbo also threw the one ring into Mt Doom.

"The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[3][4][5] Most modern scholars believe that the story of the Exodus has some historical basis, but that any such basis has little resemblance to the story told in the Bible.[6][7]"


The consensus because of massive evidence.




I choose to believe God .. you choose disbelieving historians.

I could choose to believe in Bilbo Baggins because I like the story.
Faith is not a reliable path to truth. 1 million others choose to believe the Bahai prophet. 1 Billion others choose to believe Krishna.
3 billion others choose to believe Jesus is the only way to heaven.
some choose race supremecy, they just believe their race is superior. Hey, it's their belief.

You also have no evidence any of your religion is even about God, if God were real. You have a story from a man. Some of it from a 12 year old girl. Confirmation bias doesn't make something true.

CLEARLY this method is flawed. I'll stick to truth and evidence.


That pretty much sums it up, I would say.

Wrong again, historians do not disbelieve.
Historians look at the evidence and show their findings.
If a historian studies the Bahai prophet and decided it looked like he just copied ideas from the Quran, Bible and Hindu scripture and just claimed revelations from God I have a funny feeling you would applaud their honesty and method.

YET, when it's about a myth you bought into you go kicking and screaming. Not "let me investigate and see if I can debunk this", nope. Kicking and screaming....."well I believe God....." on your soapbox of no evidence and wu. Yes, we know, you bought into a story about a God.
Well trying to debate it has been one big fallacy fail.


Any other fallacies and irrational rhetoric you want to come up with? I think you have covered every single possible way to fool oneself?
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Moses is a prophet of God. Pharaoh and his army were drowned while they were chasing the children of Israel.

There are two main positions on the historicity of the Exodus in modern scholarship.[3] The majority position is that the biblical Exodus narrative has some historical basis, although there is little of historical worth in it.[23][6][11] The other position, often associated with the school of Biblical minimalism,[24][25] is that the biblical exodus traditions are the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[26] The biblical Exodus narrative is best understood as a founding myth of the Jewish people, providing an ideological foundation for their culture and institutions, not an accurate depiction of the history of the Israelites.[27][11] The view that the biblical narrative is essentially correct unless it can explicitly be proved wrong (Biblical maximalism) is today held by "few, if any [...] in mainstream scholarship, only on the more fundamentalist fringes."[3] There is no direct evidence for any of the people or Exodus events in non-biblical ancient texts or in archaeological remains, and this has led most scholars to omit the Exodus events from comprehensive histories of Israel.[28]

Reliability of the biblical account
Mainstream scholarship no longer accepts the biblical Exodus account as history for a number of reasons. Most scholars agree that the Exodus stories were written centuries after the apparent setting of the stories.[5] The Book of Exodus itself attempts to ground the event firmly in history, dating the exodus to the 2666th year after creation (Exodus 12:40-41), the construction of the tabernacle to year 2667 (Exodus 40:1-2, 17), stating that the Israelites dwelled in Egypt for 430 years (Exodus 12:40-41), and including place names such as Goshen (Gen. 46:28), Pithom, and Ramesses (Exod. 1:11), as well as stating that 600,000 Israelite men were involved (Exodus 12:37).[29] The Book of Numbers further states that the number of Israelite males aged 20 years and older in the desert during the wandering were 603,550, including 22,273 first-borns, which modern estimates put at 2.5-3 million total Israelites, a number that could not be supported by the Sinai Desert through natural means.[30] The geography is vague with regions such as Goshen unidentified, and there are internal problems with dating in the Pentateuch.[14] No modern attempt to identify an historical Egyptian prototype for Moses has found wide acceptance, and no period in Egyptian history matches the biblical accounts of the Exodus.[31] Some elements of the story are miraculous and defy rational explanation, such as the Plagues of Egypt and the Crossing of the Red Sea.[32] The Bible did not mention the names of any of the pharaohs involved in the Exodus narrative, making it difficult for modern scholars to match Egyptian history and the biblical narrative.[33]

While ancient Egyptian texts from the New Kingdom mention "Asiatics" living in Egypt as slaves and workers, these people cannot be securely connected to the Israelites, and no contemporary Egyptian text mentions a large-scale exodus of slaves like that described in the Bible.[34] The earliest surviving historical mention of the Israelites, the Egyptian Merneptah Stele (c. 1207 BCE), appears to place them in or around Canaan and gives no indication of any exodus.[35] Archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman say that archaeology has not found any evidence for even a small band of wandering Israelites living in the Sinai: "The conclusion – that Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible – seems irrefutable [...] repeated excavations and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided even the slightest evidence."[36] Instead, modern archaeology suggests continuity between Canaanite and Israelite settlement, indicating a primarily Canaanite origin for Israel, with no suggestion that a group of foreigners from Egypt comprised early Israel.[37][38]
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I choose to believe God .. you choose disbelieving historians.


No, I choose to believe the excellent debunkings of all cosmological arguments for the existence of God. Kalam and any others.

I choose to believe the historical facts that "God" in the OT is a mish-mash of older Gods words and deeds and laws. As demonstrated by the writings of Edheduanna writing about Inanna and other sources.

I choose to believe the evidence that Tertullian, Aquinas, Origen, Agustine, The Mongolian, Boethius, Anslem, all took Greek theology and added it to Yahweh forming a modern concept of God. Despite these Greek ideas were written about fiction or not about Gods at all. That means it's made up .
Like the Pastor/historian said -
"
In some sense Christianity is taking Greco-Roman moral philosophy and theology and delivering it to the masses, even though they are unaware
"

I choose to believe the vast historical evidence that all versions of God giving revelations are fraud, never giving new information (although the religions apologetics do tell non-truths sometimes), no math, no science, nothing and write scripture that sounds like a man made it up.

I choose to believe the true fact that no evidence of Gods or anything supernatural has ever been presented. EVER.

I choose to believe the fact that people like to say they recieved revelations when they did not. Cargo-cults, suicide ufo cult, Branch Dividians, Jesus in Au (and probably all religions)

I choose to believe there is no evidence for a soul. Neuroscientists are sure this is a fiction.

I choose to believe that people can be fooled into believing supernatural claims by emotional manipulation or confirmation bias, cognative bias....and you would agree when it comes to the Bahai prophet and propably many others.

I choose to believe that when one believes other religions who make similar claims are fraud and not true but their religion is somehow special and immune to all the criticism they give to others you are using confirmation bias to the max.

And many more.

So no, not just historians although your strawman tactic seems to know no limit. Misrepresent my position and tear the wrong version down. I think we got it by now.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Well that settles it then. You have debunked yourself. Thankyou. Your stance is that experts on historical knowledge don't have proper knowledge..
You are twisting my words.
I said that they should stick to history.
i.e. actual historical events etc.

..and not make conclusions about God's existence.

Your belief is wu-wu if you don't have good evidence..
Oh really .. didn't you see God on channel 5 last night? ;)

I could choose to believe in Bilbo Baggins because I like the story..
"believe in" ?
Clearly, you are living in a fantasy world.
Tolkien wrote the "The Hobbit" .. only deluded people would believe otherwise. :D

Wrong again, historians do not disbelieve.
Historians look at the evidence and show their findings..
..some might .. but others draw conclusions about God in their written works.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Reliability of the biblical account
Mainstream scholarship no longer accepts the biblical Exodus account as history for a number of reasons..
..and I have already stated that the inaccuracy of the OT is not a good reason to assume that the exodus did not occur.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
No, I choose to believe the excellent debunkings of all cosmological arguments for the existence of God. Kalam and any others..

Ah .. changing tack now are we? :)

I choose to believe the historical facts that "God" in the OT is a mish-mash of older Gods words and deeds and laws..
An "historical fact" is an event that actually took place.
..and not a presumed conclusion of the non-existence of a prophet(s).

I choose to believe the vast historical evidence that all versions of God giving revelations are fraud..
How absurd. You think there is "historical evidence" that all revelation are fraud.

Wow! I 'm surprised that you are not a famous professor known by the academic world for proving that God does not exist, and Jesus and Muhammad are fraudulent.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You are twisting my words.
I said that they should stick to history.
i.e. actual historical events etc.

..and not make conclusions about God's existence.

First if a non-scholar like you can make conclusions than why can't a PhD make conclusions?

Second, they make conclusions about the God they study. Not any God. The God they study. And when you study all writings and comparitive writings of a God (kind of like if you studies the Bahai scripture) they 100% can speak on how fictional they find it.
Especially when they discover the God was taken from the culture them came from. Originally had a wife goddess and is no different than any other Gods for 1000 years prior. And all those Gods were fiction.

Inana was. fiction. Yet Yahweh says similar things, does similar things. Looks like fiction. Worshipped just like all the other fictive Gods. Then changes as new religions come in and influence the beliefs abouit the God (lecture about that as well, I'll link to it if you like).

Demonstrating this God is ALSO FICTION. Your belief doesn't make a fictive deity real.

Then on top of that, no evidence.

So yes, historians should say when they find these things. And they do, all of them.



..some might .. but others draw conclusions about God in their written works.

No scholar has ever looked at mythology and said "wow a human could never write this". They see human stories, copied from older stories. Mythical literary styles, many of them. Chiasmus, ring structure, styles that only happen in fictive writing, planned out. If you understood them you would know.

I care about the opinion of educated people because they can demonstrate these things and give information we would not know.

You would have historians covered up, you are suggesting it here.

And it's now known that you want beliefs based on myth to prevail over facts and scholarship.
You don't care about what is true. It's been established. You just enjoy a myth and want to declare it true. You want to ignore the words of educated people because they point out all these things that you don't like.
I get it. You don't care about truth, evidence and whatever beliefs one holds about stories are better versions of truth for you. I just want to know what is true. It isn't here or with any of your beliefs or thoughts. You do you. Do the mythic stories thing. Don't care.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Ah .. changing tack now are we? :)

Yes we are done. You do beliefs I do evidence. I was listing various forms of evidence besides historians. Of course you would twist that into something else because you debate dishonestly. Another reason we are done. It's too easy.

An "historical fact" is an event that actually took place.
..and not a presumed conclusion of the non-existence of a prophet(s).
Yes, it's a historical factthat people claimed to be prophets and never came up with anything except more mythology. No god-like knowledge. Just more human words fitting of the time. Fraud.


How absurd. You think there is "historical evidence" that all revelation are fraud.


Yes. A God that talks to a person clearly wants people to believe him. It wouldn't just give more theology, no information a human could already have, a bunch of Greek and incorrect science, it's all a fraud.

Wow! I 'm surprised that you are not a famous professor known by the academic world for proving that God does not exist, and Jesus and Muhammad are fraudulent.


No one has to prove Gods don't exist just like they don't have to prove Thor, the Easter Bunny or Zeus doesn't exist. They have to be proven or they are fiction.

Prophets have never given anything proven to be from a God. They tell more stories, give more of teh same.

Yes people believe them. But people believe Bob Lazar, Roswell Aliens, Scientology and all sorts of fiction. Including the Law of Attraction. Doesn't make them real.
Prophets have NEVER demonstrated to be speaking to a God. It' salways faith.

Which earlier you said you think are the most important way to know things. So you do not care about what is true.

You are just going to re-hash all the same fallacies over and over until the end of time. Your Gods will still be fiction. And the evidence will still favor secular beliefs.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
..and I have already stated that the inaccuracy of the OT is not a good reason to assume that the exodus did not occur.


Had you read this you would know this isn't just about what the OT said. But you did say the OT is "inaccurate" and in the same sentence suggest a myth from the OT is TRUE????????

And a God form the OT is true??????? While admitting the "inaccuracy of the OT"??? HA!


There are two main positions on the historicity of the Exodus in modern scholarship.[3] The majority position is that the biblical Exodus narrative has some historical basis, although there is little of historical worth in it.[23][6][11] The other position, often associated with the school of Biblical minimalism,[24][25] is that the biblical exodus traditions are the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[26] The biblical Exodus narrative is best understood as a founding myth of the Jewish people, providing an ideological foundation for their culture and institutions, not an accurate depiction of the history of the Israelites.[27][11] The view that the biblical narrative is essentially correct unless it can explicitly be proved wrong (Biblical maximalism) is today held by "few, if any [...] in mainstream scholarship, only on the more fundamentalist fringes."[3] There is no direct evidence for any of the people or Exodus events in non-biblical ancient texts or in archaeological remains, and this has led most scholars to omit the Exodus events from comprehensive histories of Israel.[28]

Reliability of the biblical account
Mainstream scholarship no longer accepts the biblical Exodus account as history for a number of reasons. Most scholars agree that the Exodus stories were written centuries after the apparent setting of the stories.[5] The Book of Exodus itself attempts to ground the event firmly in history, dating the exodus to the 2666th year after creation (Exodus 12:40-41), the construction of the tabernacle to year 2667 (Exodus 40:1-2, 17), stating that the Israelites dwelled in Egypt for 430 years (Exodus 12:40-41), and including place names such as Goshen (Gen. 46:28), Pithom, and Ramesses (Exod. 1:11), as well as stating that 600,000 Israelite men were involved (Exodus 12:37).[29] The Book of Numbers further states that the number of Israelite males aged 20 years and older in the desert during the wandering were 603,550, including 22,273 first-borns, which modern estimates put at 2.5-3 million total Israelites, a number that could not be supported by the Sinai Desert through natural means.[30] The geography is vague with regions such as Goshen unidentified, and there are internal problems with dating in the Pentateuch.[14] No modern attempt to identify an historical Egyptian prototype for Moses has found wide acceptance, and no period in Egyptian history matches the biblical accounts of the Exodus.[31] Some elements of the story are miraculous and defy rational explanation, such as the Plagues of Egypt and the Crossing of the Red Sea.[32] The Bible did not mention the names of any of the pharaohs involved in the Exodus narrative, making it difficult for modern scholars to match Egyptian history and the biblical narrative.[33]

While ancient Egyptian texts from the New Kingdom mention "Asiatics" living in Egypt as slaves and workers, these people cannot be securely connected to the Israelites, and no contemporary Egyptian text mentions a large-scale exodus of slaves like that described in the Bible.[34] The earliest surviving historical mention of the Israelites, the Egyptian Merneptah Stele (c. 1207 BCE), appears to place them in or around Canaan and gives no indication of any exodus.[35] Archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman say that archaeology has not found any evidence for even a small band of wandering Israelites living in the Sinai: "The conclusion – that Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible – seems irrefutable [...] repeated excavations and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided even the slightest evidence."[36] Instead, modern archaeology suggests continuity between Canaanite and Israelite settlement, indicating a primarily Canaanite origin for Israel, with no suggestion that a group of foreigners from Egypt comprised early Israel.[37][38]

Joel S. Baden[43] noted the presence of Semitic-speaking slaves in Egypt who sometimes escaped in small numbers as potential inspirations for the Exodus.[44] It is also possible that oppressive Egyptian rule of Canaan during the late second millennium BCE may have aided the adoption of the story of a small group of Egyptian refugees by the native Canaanites among the Israelites.[45] The expulsion of the Hyksos, a Semitic group that had conquered much of Egypt, by the Seventeenth Dynasty of Egypt is also frequently discussed as a potential historical parallel or origin for the story.[45][46][47] Alternatively, Nadav Na'aman argued that oppressive Egyptian rule of Canaan during the Nineteenth and especially the Twentieth Dynasty may have inspired the Exodus narrative, forming a "collective memory" of Egyptian oppression that was transferred from Canaan to Egypt itself in the popular consciousness.[48]

Many other scholars reject this view, and instead see the biblical exodus traditions as the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.[26] Lester Grabbe, for instance, argued that "[t]here is no compelling reason that the exodus has to be rooted in history",[49] and that the details of the story more closely fit the seventh through the fifth centuries BCE than the traditional dating to the second millennium BCE.[50] Philip R. Davies suggested that the story may have been inspired by the return to Israel of Israelites and Judaeans who were placed in Egypt as garrison troops by the Assyrians in the fifth and sixth centuries BCE.[51]
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
First if a non-scholar like you can make conclusions than why can't a PhD make conclusions?
Argument from authority fallacy..

..Originally had a wife goddess and is no different than any other Gods..
originally?

Humanity's written history was preceded by its prehistory, beginning with the Paleolithic ("Old Stone Age") era. This was followed by the Neolithic ("New Stone Age") era, which saw the Agricultural Revolution begin in the Middle East around 10,000 BCE
Human history - Wikipedia

..and you think you can know what happened 12,000 years ago,
and are able to trace the beliefs about what and why people believed about God to this day?
It is nothing more than conjecture.

You would have historians covered up, you are suggesting it here..
There is no need to .. they are entitled to their opinions of disbelief.

You don't care about what is true..
I believe that I will see whether that is true or not after my death.

It's been established. You just enjoy a myth and want to declare it true.
How do I enjoy it?
It doesn't feel much like enjoyment to me.
..neither did it feel much like enjoyment for our ancestors who were persecuted for their belief.

You want to ignore the words of educated people because they point out all these things that you don't like..
On the contrary .. I prefer to speak with educated people, as I am well-educated myself.
I studied Maths-Physics to degree level.

I am aware that Isaac Newton was the first professor in Cambridge University UK, who was granted an exception by the King, as regards not professing faith in the trinity.
Newton was a Unitarian.

..so don't make it all about education.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
And a God form the OT is true??????? While admitting the "inaccuracy of the OT"??? HA!
What are you talking about?
There is only One God .. One Creator and Maintainer of the universe.

He is the God of Abraham .. of Moses .. of Jesus .. of Muhammad.
Peace be with them all.

Inaccuracy does not refute the core narrations .. only the detail.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Argument from authority fallacy..

First that doesn't answer the question? If you can make conclusions then why can't other people make conclusions?
Second it isn't that fallacy (which you clearly don't understand). You do understand the most common way for laypersons to mis-use the fallacy claim it seems.

I never said it's true because so and so said so. I said there are people who understand the historical evidence and spend years studying it.

If a person actually cared about what was true and they found people who studied all the evidence surrounding it they would be interested in all of the information.
Or if a person found something that they wanted to be true and it connected with them emotionally they would then only seek out facts that supported their beliefs and strongly oppose anyone who didn't. They would also oppose evidence that did not support their beliefs. This is what the human brain does and is the reason science, critical thinking, logic, etc...was invented. As a work-around to this bug in human thinking.



originally?

Humanity's written history was preceded by its prehistory, beginning with the Paleolithic ("Old Stone Age") era. This was followed by the Neolithic ("New Stone Age") era, which saw the Agricultural Revolution begin in the Middle East around 10,000 BCE
Human history - Wikipedia

Yes, originally. The Israelites first appear as ex-Canaanites around 1200 BCE. Excavations of early towns finds the majority worshipped Yahweh and Ashera. This is spoken about in scripture as well. After the Persian invasion religious leaders decided Yahweh was ignoring them because they were not just worshipping him (or the real reason, he is a fictional character) so they dropped Ashera as the consort of Yahweh. In 600 BCE the OT was canonized and revised to reflect the new beliefs.


..and you think you can know what happened 12,000 years ago,
and are able to trace the beliefs about what and why people believed about God to this day?
It is nothing more than conjecture.


No, it's not conjecture, we have archaeological finds of Yahweh and Ashera figurines all over early towns as well as the Bible itself which tells us of this period.
In scripture they felt Yahweh was "sleeping" and ignoring his people and allowed the invasion. Of course they were just invaded again by the Greeks, then the Romans.
By the same token if archaeologists found evidence that supported the beliefs in the quran I'm sure you would be all over it as proof. But when it doesn't back up your beliefs you call it "conjecture".
It's isn't, it's evidence. There are sections in scripture that mention it and many finds.

"Stavrakopoulou bases her theory on ancient texts, amulets and figurines unearthed primarily in the ancient Canaanite coastal city called Ugarit, now modern-day Syria. All of these artifacts reveal that Asherah was a powerful fertility goddess.

Asherah's connection to Yahweh, according to Stavrakopoulou, is spelled out in both the Bible and an 8th century B.C. inscription on pottery found in the Sinai desert at a site called Kuntillet Ajrud.

"The inscription is a petition for a blessing," she shares. "Crucially, the inscription asks for a blessing from 'Yahweh and his Asherah.' Here was evidence that presented Yahweh and Asherah as a divine pair. And now a handful of similar inscriptions have since been found, all of which help to strengthen the case that the God of the Bible once had a wife."

Also significant, Stavrakopoulou believes, "is the Bible's admission that the goddess Asherah was worshiped in Yahweh's Temple in Jerusalem. In the Book of Kings, we're told that a statue of Asherah was housed in the temple and that female temple personnel wove ritual textiles for her."


J. Edward Wright, president of both The Arizona Center for Judaic Studies and The Albright Institute for Archaeological Research, told Discovery News that he agrees several Hebrew inscriptions mention "Yahweh and his Asherah."

"Asherah was not entirely edited out of the Bible by its male editors," he added. "Traces of her remain, and based on those traces, archaeological evidence and references to her in texts from nations bordering Israel and Judah, we can reconstruct her role in the religions of the Southern Levant."

BLOG: Atheists Best Informed About Religion

Asherah -- known across the ancient Near East by various other names, such as Astarte and Istar -- was "an important deity, one who was both mighty and nurturing," Wright continued.

"Many English translations prefer to translate 'Asherah' as 'Sacred Tree,'" Wright said. "This seems to be in part driven by a modern desire, clearly inspired by the Biblical narratives, to hide Asherah behind a veil once again."

"Mentions of the goddess Asherah in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) are rare and have been heavily edited by the ancient authors who gathered the texts together," Aaron Brody, director of the Bade Museum and an associate professor of Bible and archaeology at the Pacific School of Religion, said.

Asherah as a tree symbol was even said to have been "chopped down and burned outside the Temple in acts of certain rulers who were trying to 'purify' the cult, and focus on the worship of a single male god, Yahweh," he added.

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The ancient Israelites were polytheists, Brody told Discovery News, "with only a small minority worshiping Yahweh alone before the historic events of 586 B.C." In that year, an elite community within Judea was exiled to Babylon and the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. This, Brody said, led to "a more universal vision of strict monotheism: one god not only for Judah, but for all of the nations."

There is no need to .. they are entitled to their opinions of disbelief.

They just give facts about evidence. Not beliefs. You don't even understand what you are so against. Bizarre?

I believe that I will see whether that is true or not after my death.

Now that would be conjecture. You will see what you saw before your birth.



How do I enjoy it?
It doesn't feel much like enjoyment to me.
..neither did it feel much like enjoyment for our ancestors who were persecuted for their belief.
Yes every religion has many religious martyrs. Doesn't make a belief true.
I don't know how you enjoy it? For whatever reason you want it to be true. You already made statements about an afterlife right above this so there you go. That is your motivation.
Unfortunately Muhammad was just riffing off the Bible who got their afterlife beliefs from Greek and Persian stories so thats all LOTR fantasy stuff.



On the contrary .. I prefer to speak with educated people, as I am well-educated myself.
I studied Maths-Physics to degree level.

Well you did not understand the modern physics we discussed. Are unaware of the historicity of religions you believe in, so you are not well educated for this topic.


I am aware that Isaac Newton was the first professor in Cambridge University UK, who was granted an exception by the King, as regards not professing faith in the trinity.
Newton was a Unitarian.
Who cares? Newton also spent half of his time on alchemy. His religious beliefs are of no matter.


..so don't make it all about education.

If you wanted that to be true you wouldn't make such ridiculous and inaccurate comments about historical scholars.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
What are you talking about?
There is only One God .. One Creator and Maintainer of the universe..

Uh, wow, talk about speculation? Not only is that just a story (fictional) you don't have evidence for any of that, don't know if Gods were real that there was one or many? Is God not unlimited? Why can't he make all sorts of Gods?
But this is as fantasy talk as the creation story from LOTR. Eru Eluvatar the supreme being created all . That must be true also because it says so in a book.



He is the God of Abraham .. of Moses .. of Jesus .. of Muhammad.
Peace be with them all.

Inaccuracy does not refute the core narrations .. only the detail.

No what refutes that is it's unproven, no evidence, doesn't make any sense and is complete fiction. That's just about a God. A theistic God, that's just too farfetched to even consider.
But you say things that you don't even agree with without massive special pleading. Inaccuracy? Details wrong? Sure, in the Quran as well right? So maybe the NT has it correct. Same God and all, it's just details?
No? Doesn't work? Why, because your version is completely accurate it's only the others that have details wrong? You can all them inaccurate but your is perfect?
A myth from the 7th century isn't just as easy to mess up than one from the 2nd century or 1st.
Your beliefs are all fallacies.
Why do you bother repeating beliefs over and over. Those things are not real. If you want to debate them you have to actually debate them. I already know you hold beliefs in mythology? And that myth tells you how to frame other myths. And avoid any evidence at all costs. I see how that works.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I never said it's true because so and so said so. I said there are people who understand the historical evidence and spend years studying it..
One may spend a whole life time studying what might have happened 1000's of years ago..
That does not mean they are qualified in saying that God does not exist, and that Islam evolved from apparently random source.

Yes, originally. The Israelites first appear as ex-Canaanites around 1200 BCE..
First appeared? .. you mean as in "beamed down" by Captain Kirk? ;)

Excavations of early towns finds the majority worshipped Yahweh and Ashera. This is spoken about in scripture as well..
..so what?
That tells us nothing about God .. it only tells us that people worshiped more than one god.

Here was evidence that presented Yahweh and Asherah as a divine pair..
Wow! You just ignore me, and assume that people's ignorance in the past shows evidence that Abrahamic belief is FOUNDED on ignorance.
Your conclusions are based on disbelief. This evidence is not evidence of anythng but people of old were inclined to polytheism.

And now a handful of similar inscriptions have since been found, all of which help to strengthen the case that the God of the Bible once had a wife."
Ha ha ha :D
Ignorance!

The ancient Israelites were polytheists,.
Congratulations .. we know..

I don't know how you enjoy it? For whatever reason you want it to be true..
I don't WANT it to be true .. I just see that it is. :)

You already made statements about an afterlife right above this so there you go. That is your motivation..
You might assume that that is the case, but I can assure you that it isn't..
I might be in hell for billions of years, or die in disbelief.
..then what? :mad:

Well you did not understand the modern physics we discussed...
I was discussing the philosophy of science.
You can accuse me of being ignorant, if it pleases you..

If you wanted that to be true you wouldn't make such ridiculous and inaccurate comments about historical scholars.
I find history very interesting .. but historical facts are notoriously difficult to prove.
Furthermore, if one wants to draw conclusions about the existence of God from historical events, it depends on underlying assumption.
i.e. did prophets exist or didn't they
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
YET, when it's about a myth you bought into you go kicking and screaming. Not "let me investigate and see if I can debunk this", nope. Kicking and screaming....."well I believe God....." on your soapbox of no evidence and wu. Yes, we know, you bought into a story about a God.
Well trying to debate it has been one big fallacy fail.

It is you who is kicking and screaming, joelr.
 
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