Let’s talk about the Bible

[djhwoodwerks]

Groan.

Truly the title of the thread by someone "in the truth" should be, "let me tell you about the Bible".

If the Bible isn't the word of God and not Holy, then all we have are people giving their opinion of what they believe it to say. And if we are not to lean on anyone's understanding, we are just SOL right?

 

[savagewind]

With your reasoning, the Bible, that God allowed error in, is not Holy and therefore worthless.

OK. You are not holy.........therefore worthless. How's that?

 

[savagewind]

If the Bible isn't the word of God and not Holy, then all we have are people giving their opinion of what they believe it to say. And if we are not to lean on anyone's understanding, we are just SOL right?

Opinion is not always bad. You know that!

 

[savagewind]

Then why do you bother reading and quoting it? It's worthless if it's not the Holy word of God. We should just throw it in the trash.

Do you listen to yourself? I should shoot myself dead if @Jayhawker Soule has me on ignore, but not you.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Thanks, but let me recommend in return the book "How Jesus Became God" by Bart Ehrman, who's a theologian at the University of North Carolina who walks the reader through point by point why and how the Trinity was formulated in the 1st century church, with Paul"a writings very much reflecting this.

Ehrman, like myself, is a former Christian who now is more agnostic but feels there's "Something" (see my faith statement below because his approach is much the same as mine). Neither of us have any irons in this fire as we're not tied to any denomination, and both of us heavily emphasize the need to use objective history and theology as best we can and not reflect what a particular denomination might teach.

The irony is that the trinitarian concept was less controversial in the early church than it became in the following centuries. It was assumed and believed in the early church, and you can especially see it in Paul's writings, that God and Jesus are so closely linked together that goes well beyond even the relationship between God and any of the prophets, including Moses. The latter is never talked about in the scriptures like Jesus is in regards to their association with God. Nowhere does Moses make any kind of claim that he and God are basically one.

But what is also true is that the view of most in the early church was not at all well-defined, which is what largely led to the 2nd through 4th century controversies on this matter, also fueled by some "heretical" churches that claimed that Jesus was just a prophet. And just a reminder that there is nothing found in the Tanakh that states or implies that a belief in the person alone of the prophet "saves" any one. IOW, nowhere do we see anything like John 3:16 applied to any prophet, even Moses.

But thanks for the link anyway.

Thank you for all the interesting information.
I just got back on after a few days off.
You’ve given me something to work on now.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

With the trinitarian concept as used by the Catholic Church, for example, it is typically referred to as "the mystery of the Trinity", thus not being three gods but being one god with three "manifestations", if I can use an eastern-religious word for it. Notice the word "mystery", whereas the teaching of the church is that the exact relationship cannot be determined because it's beyond earthly comprehension.

In that teaching, certainly there are differences between the three "manifestations", and yet they are believed to be in some manner so "joined at the hip" to the point of being inseparable.

Do I personally believe this? No, but neither can I say it's wrong.

I enjoy your thoughtful responses Metis.
I have a question.
If the church admits it’s a mystery beyond the comprehension of all humans, then why did humans try to make a trinity in the first place?
Why not just have God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
And leave it alone?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Words are things. Like Faith, and Knowledge.

 

[Oeste]

I have a question.
If the church admits it’s a mystery beyond the comprehension of all humans, then why did humans try to make a trinity in the first place?
Why not just have God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
And leave it alone?

If you have the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit as separate Gods, you have polytheism which is anathema to the historic church, because there is only one God.

You could have one God operating in different modes...Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit (Sebellianism/modalism), but any exegesis is unsound...for instance you run into problems where we find Jesus praying to himself.

You could also make the Father a big God, Jesus a junior God and junk the deity of the Spirit, but that still leaves leave your church with one too many Gods, or another polytheistic theology.

To my knowledge, Trinitarianism is the only theological doctrine that adequately explains the myriad scriptural claims of Jesus' deity without running afoul of other scripture. If there is a better theological construct that explains the NT claims of Jesus, I haven't found it.

Once I put aside "proof texting" and engaged in a careful exegesis of scripture, I gradually came kicking and screaming to the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Oeste]

So what happens to the rank and file witness if Jesus comes back tomorrow, and your "real teachers" didn't examine, discern or consider the last "new light" in time?

Every IF ever thought of since the beginning of time holds a total value of 0.

With all due respect KJW, that is simply not true. Don’t you test assertions before putting them out there?

If you touch this, you will burn your hand.

If you lie to me again, I will leave.

If you listen you will learn.

If x is true then y is untrue.

If y >=x, what is the value of x?

The value of IF in the arts, sciences, math, culture…everywhere there is creative thought… is immeasurable. Without "ifs" we lack inventiveness, strategy, and planning, as well as the capacity to perform critical analysis.

But again, that may be the point. The Watchtower does not invite Berean thinking, so it may be just one more thing Witnesses are asked to park at their local Kingdom Hall door.

I hope I'm wrong on this but your statement implies otherwise.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

If you have the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit as separate Gods, you have polytheism which is anathema to the historic church, because there is only one God.

You could have one God operating in different modes...Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit (Sebellianism/modalism), but any exegesis is unsound...for instance you run into problems where we find Jesus praying to himself.

You could also make the Father a big God, Jesus a junior God and junk the deity of the Spirit, but that still leaves leave your church with one too many Gods, or another polytheistic theology.

To my knowledge, Trinitarianism is the only theological doctrine that adequately explains the myriad scriptural claims of Jesus' deity without running afoul of other scripture. If there is a better theological construct that explains the NT claims of Jesus, I haven't found it.

Once I put aside "proof texting" and engaged in a careful exegesis of scripture, I gradually came kicking and screaming to the doctrine of the Trinity.

I never said there were three gods.
The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate and different entities.
The Father is God.
Jesus is Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.
I’m comfortable with that.
No humans need try to make a mystery of God into something that may or may not be so.

 

[Oeste]

I never said there were three gods.

I'm not aware of anyone who claims you did.

I am saying there are 3 Gods, if you have the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as separate Gods.

The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate and different entities.
The Father is God.
Jesus is Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.
I’m comfortable with that.

That's fine if it works for you but as a Trinitarian it would leave me uncomfortable because I wouldn't be able to reconcile such a belief with New Testament scripture.

No humans need try to make a mystery of God into something that may or may not be so.

7 “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
8They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know? (Job 11)​

The only way I know of taking the mystery out of God is to create one in our own image like the pagans did. So while we would then have a God we completely understand it just wouldn't be the God as described by scripture.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But when Jesus supposedly said that he and God were one, ...

Jesus meant he and his Father were 'one', in the sense of unity:

John 17:22

Yet trinitarians continue to misapply Jesus' statement at John 10:30, even tho He explained the oneness they shared in John 17:21-22.
It's obvious what Jesus meant.

If they twist that passage, they'll twist others.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The trinitarian concept is not of pagan origin,

But it is; there were quite a few in ancient times.

Triple deity - Wikipedia

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Please show us in any of the early church writings whereas they justified this belief in the trinity through "pagan" sources?

See, this is what your JW teachers dishonestly have taught you, so please go and read on your own what the reality is versus just blindly accepting their nonsense. No CC document of any type that I have ever studied shows any attempt by the CC to justify their belief in this manner. You don't accept the concept of the trinity, neither do I, but it does not have a "pagan" source.

IOW, please just don't believe what you're being taught to believe just because some leaders tell you to believe them. Do the homework or you'll likely get trapped into a false paradigm sooner or later.

Of course the CC wouldn't 'justify their belief' in a trinity by using pagan sources! Vee never said nor implied that. Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses. But the origin of trinity gods is pagan.

 

[kjw47]

I wonder if I should write them a letter? I did once saying that the rider at Revelation 6:2 is not Jesus, but they have ignored me. I think it is a waste of time, more so than here, to tell them anything. Some of their people, or all of them, say that nothing true can be known except if it comes from their governing body.

Him getting the crown, proves 100% it is Jesus. Your darkness prevents your seeing.

 

[kjw47]

Everyone is entitle to their opinion KJW, just not their own facts. I'd be extremely interested in where you got this "fact" from and so wouldn't millions of other Protestants the world over.



Would that include the "truth" about who translates our bibles?

And what do you mean “He will accept no less”?? Doesn’t your Organization teach that God accepted your Organization in 1919 "errors" and all? Were His standards a little lower then?



Let me see if I have this right:


God requires one to know truth from erroneous teachers who make corrections. They make corrections because they consistently make errors (for which there is no excuse), so they make more corrections because God requires us to know the truth.


If that is not an exercise in circular logic, I don’t know what is.


Lastly Dan 12:4 says knowledge, not truth, will increase in the last days:


"But you, Daniel, close up these words and seal the book until the time of the end. Many will dash about, and knowledge will increase.


Daniel was told to seal the scroll but apparently your Governing Board found it, read the contents, corrected any errors, translated it and have now divulged the scrolls contents within the Watchtower magazine.

Do you know where they found the scroll, where they keep the scroll, how long they’ve had the scroll and why they haven’t published a copy? Or do the folks in your Organization consider it impolite to ask?

Catholicism allowed 0 of the flock to read the bible for 1000 years after the councils were held. It was kept in latin. only upper clergy were allowed to read it. Once men were allowed to read--they ran from Catholicism--no originals existed when the protestants translated--only Catholicism translating remained. They had 0 clue by then what was truth. Catholicism surely did not or do not have it.

 

[kjw47]

With all due respect KJW, that is simply not true. Don’t you test assertions before putting them out there?

If you touch this, you will burn your hand.

If you lie to me again, I will leave.

If you listen you will learn.

If x is true then y is untrue.

If y >=x, what is the value of x?

The value of IF in the arts, sciences, math, culture…everywhere there is creative thought… is immeasurable. Without "ifs" we lack inventiveness, strategy, and planning, as well as the capacity to perform critical analysis.

But again, that may be the point. The Watchtower does not invite Berean thinking, so it may be just one more thing Witnesses are asked to park at their local Kingdom Hall door.

I hope I'm wrong on this but your statement implies otherwise.

If = 0
action = 100%

 

[savagewind]

@djhwoodwerks maybe you are the son of parents who choose censo

Him getting the crown, proves 100% it is Jesus. Your darkness prevents your seeing.

He got it! Why does the governing body believe that he should get two?
All authority (which if pictured is a CROWN) was given him before he ascended to Heaven. Then, you say he got another crown in the time of the end. Tell us, please, what is he going to do with two crowns? What's the other one for?

 

[savagewind]

If all authority doesn't mean a crown, what does a crown mean?

That's right, that's math!

Actually, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus was downgraded as pictured at Revelation 6:2.
The reason being is that he had ALL authority given him before, and now his authority is with the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses [only]. That is a major downgrade.

Now they teach that anyone who will not accept his authority through the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses will be killed. And, it seems as though they think that Jesus will do the killing.

If it wasn't a very, very serious problem, it would be funny.

 

[savagewind]

@kjw47 what does the crown picture?