Let's Give Thanks That A&E Ate That Apple

[Subduction Zone]

What myth? I don't waste my time believing in myths.
I could give my perspective concerning the specific sin that occurred in the Genesis account, but if it is just a myth to you why should I bother and why do you care?

Sure you do. You just don't realize. Just as you probably do not realize by believing that myth you are calling your God a liar. And I could quote a verse for you that tells you why you have that right as a Christian. I shall have to see if I can recall it.

 

[InChrist]

If you don't think that loyalty can be instilled, then I take it you've never been a teacher or parent, or held a leadership position.

We don't choose our values. The values that God gave Adam and Eve were compatible with eating the fruit. The fault is ultimately God's.

Irrelevant. Responsibility isn't a zero-sum game.

... from Adam. For her, the "test" was as much to do with loyalty to Adam as it was about loyalty to God. And if she didn't trust him, then it wouldn't be about loyalty to God at all.

Actually, I am a parent of adult children and have been a teacher. I am afraid some of your presumptions are inaccurate. How many stories are there of parents who have raised their kids in good homes, loved them, provided for their needs, given them a good education, etc., yet some of those kids rebel, turn to crime, drugs, theft, or some other harmful way of living? Parents, teachers, and others may and do influence us, but ultimately we each make our own decisions, choose our own values, and are responsible for the consequences of our actions. I've never known a judge to dismiss a criminal because they blamed their crime on a lack of or the wrong values taught to them.

God gave Adam and Eve a perfect, beautiful garden home with everything they could physically need. He gave them each other to provide for their emotional needs and He gave them His love, spiritual fulfillment and His wisdom. They lacked nothing and they had every reason to trust God, yet they turned from God and became self-focused instead of God- focused which led to negative consequences.

According to the scriptures, this situation occurred repeatedly in the OT history of Israel, The people were blessed by God, yet they continually turned away into sin and wicked practices. It will occur again after the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. All will see the earth restored. All will see peace on earth. All will experience a good life under the reign of Christ. All will be taught good values, yet the scriptures show that even after people know and have experienced the goodness of God for generations, many still choose to sin and rebel.

 

[InChrist]

Sure you do. You just don't realize. Just as you probably do not realize by believing that myth you are calling your God a liar. And I could quote a verse for you that tells you why you have that right as a Christian. I shall have to see if I can recall it.

Yeah, see if you can.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, I am a parent of adult children and have been a teacher. I am afraid some of your presumptions are inaccurate. How many stories are there of parents who have raised their kids in good homes, loved them, provided for their needs, given them a good education, etc., yet some of those kids rebel, turn to crime, drugs, theft, or some other harmful way of living? Parents, teachers, and others may and do influence us, but ultimately we each make our own decisions, choose our own values, and are responsible for the consequences of our actions. I've never known a judge to dismiss a criminal because they blamed their crime on a lack of or the wrong values taught to them.

God gave Adam and Eve a perfect, beautiful garden home with everything they could physically need. He gave them each other to provide for their emotional needs and He gave them His love, spiritual fulfillment and His wisdom. They lacked nothing and they had every reason to trust God, yet they turned from God and became self-focused instead of God- focused which led to negative consequences.

According to the scriptures, this situation occurred repeatedly in the OT history of Israel, The people were blessed by God, yet they continually turned away into sin and wicked practices. It will occur again after the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. All will see the earth restored. All will see peace on earth. All will experience a good life under the reign of Christ. All will be taught good values, yet the scriptures show that even after people know and have experienced the goodness of God for generations, many still choose to sin and rebel.

You forgot the story already? According to the story we were born with the knowledge of right and wrong because A and E are the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Until they did so they did not understand right from wrong according to the myth.

 

[InChrist]

You forgot the story already? According to the story we were born with the knowledge of right and wrong because A and E are the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Until they did so they did not understand right from wrong according to the myth.

You are incorrect, but long as you keep calling the account a myth I'm losing interest in the conversation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are incorrect, but long as you keep calling the account a myth I'm losing interest in the conversation.

How about "fairy tale"?

The problem with the tale is that if it is true then God is a liar. Are you sure that you want that?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually, I am a parent of adult children and have been a teacher. I am afraid some of your presumptions are inaccurate.

I was trying to be charitable. I was trying to think of a scenario where there would be an excuse for your position.

How many stories are there of parents who have raised their kids in good homes, loved them, provided for their needs, given them a good education, etc., yet some of those kids rebel, turn to crime, drugs, theft, or some other harmful way of living?

Plenty: parents (and other influences on a child), being human, are imperfect.

Parents, teachers, and others may and do influence us, but ultimately we each make our own decisions, choose our own values, and are responsible for the consequences of our actions.

You chose your own values? How?

I've never known a judge to dismiss a criminal because they blamed their crime on a lack of or the wrong values taught to them.

More to the point: have you ever known a judge to convict a criminal not because they directly committed the crime, but because they were instrumental in having a crime committed by someone else?

As I said before, responsibility isn't a zero-sum game. Someone who hires a hit man can be guilty of murder even though the hit man is also guilty of murder.

God gave Adam and Eve a perfect, beautiful garden home with everything they could physically need. He gave them each other to provide for their emotional needs and He gave them His love, spiritual fulfillment and His wisdom. They lacked nothing and they had every reason to trust God, yet they turned from God and became self-focused instead of God- focused which led to negative consequences.

Who put the snake in the garden?

According to the scriptures, this situation occurred repeatedly in the OT history of Israel, The people were blessed by God, yet they continually turned away into sin and wicked practices.

Sure: that's one of the hallmarks of a just-so story: it describes a past that explains why things are the way they are now. The authors saw what they considered a problem in their time - members of their society not behaving in the way they believed God wanted, apparently habitually - and wrote a story that suggests rebelliousness is part of our nature.

It will occur again after the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. All will see the earth restored. All will see peace on earth. All will experience a good life under the reign of Christ. All will be taught good values, yet the scriptures show that even after people know and have experienced the goodness of God for generations, many still choose to sin and rebel.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[ecco]

There are no lies. God is holy and cannot lie...

He blamed A&E for partaking of the fruit when He knew it was a set up. That's even worse than lying.

He destroyed almost all of his creation because (He said) He was unhappy with the way things turned out. Certainly the giraffes and kangaroos weren't guilty of anything, yet He drowned millions of them. That's even worse than lying.

 

[ecco]

God created the human race in a specific way, starting with Adam and Eve, specifically.in His image, giving them freewill.

He placed them in a good environment blessing them with everything they needed and more.

They only had one straightforward rule.They chose to disregard this rule and sinned.

If you build a sandcastle on the beach at low tide, you know it is going to get washed away. God knew A&E were going to disobey Him because of the way He built them.

God did not blame Adam or punish everyone because of Adam's sin.

I guess we are reading different bibles.

The Punishment of Mankind

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;​

 

[InChrist]

He blamed A&E for partaking of the fruit when He knew it was a set up. That's even worse than lying.

He destroyed almost all of his creation because (He said) He was unhappy with the way things turned out. Certainly the giraffes and kangaroos weren't guilty of anything, yet He drowned millions of them. That's even worse than lying.

They were given freedom to make a choice, God knowing the outcome does not negate the fact that they freely chose and were therefore responsible. There was no lying involved.

No the animals were not guilty, but humans were and they were given stewardship over the earth and animals. The fact that sin brought judgement and negative consequences on the earth and animals is the fault of humans.

Yes, God knew they would disobey when He created humans. Really, the only other option would be...not to create human beings at all, but obviously God wanted to create humans.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They were given freedom to make a choice, God knowing the outcome does not negate the fact that they freely chose and were therefore responsible. There was no lying involved.

No the animals were not guilty, but humans were and they were given stewardship over the earth and animals. The fact that sin brought judgement and negative consequences on the earth and animals is the fault of humans.

Yes, God knew they would disobey when He created humans. Really, the only other option would be...not to create human beings at all, but obviously God wanted to create humans.

You are not thinking logically. If God knew and he is omnipotent and omniscient then he is at fault. You simply can't have it both ways. If I write some computer code and I know it will fail in a particular manner it is my fault when it fails, not the computer's fault nor the code's fault.

 

[ecco]

They were given freedom to make a choice, God knowing the outcome does not negate the fact that they freely chose and were therefore responsible. There was no lying involved.

I'm glad to see you acknowledge that God knew beforehand that His creations would fail.

God created two fully formed humans. Everything they knew, every concept they had, was instilled into them by God - their knowledge of language, their morals.

Parents try to instill a sense of morality into their children. Some do a better job than others. With God and A&E, the level of morality that was instilled into A&E was very precise. A omnipotent God could do no less. With the precise level of morality that God instilled into them and, with His powers of omniscience, God knew precisely what the outcome would be.

He created them in a precise manner so they would precisely fail just as He desired.

No the animals were not guilty, but humans were and they were given stewardship over the earth and animals. The fact that sin brought judgement and negative consequences on the earth and animals is the fault of humans.

If you believe that, then you must see the sadistic brutality of God.
God could have just eliminated all the animals after Noah got two of each into the Ark and before starting the Flood. Instead He left them around to die horrible deaths.

Yes, God knew they would disobey when He created humans. Really, the only other option would be...not to create human beings at all, but obviously God wanted to create humans.

No, He could have instilled a better sense of morality into them. If you intentionally build a faulty structure and know that the structure will fail, that is not the fault of the structure.

 

[InChrist]

You are not thinking logically. If God knew and he is omnipotent and omniscient then he is at fault. You simply can't have it both ways. If I write some computer code and I know it will fail in a particular manner it is my fault when it fails, not the computer's fault nor the code's fault.

A computer is not a human with a will of it's own.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A computer is not a human with a will of it's own.

Free will is an illusion if your God is omnipotent and omniscient. Now you are just quibbling.

 

[InChrist]

I'm glad to see you acknowledge that God knew beforehand that His creations would fail.

God created two fully formed humans. Everything they knew, every concept they had, was instilled into them by God - their knowledge of language, their morals.

Parents try to instill a sense of morality into their children. Some do a better job than others. With God and A&E, the level of morality that was instilled into A&E was very precise. A omnipotent God could do no less. With the precise level of morality that God instilled into them and, with His powers of omniscience, God knew precisely what the outcome would be.

He created them in a precise manner so they would precisely fail just as He desired.



If you believe that, then you must see the sadistic brutality of God.
God could have just eliminated all the animals after Noah got two of each into the Ark and before starting the Flood. Instead He left them around to die horrible deaths.


No, He could have instilled a better sense of morality into them. If you intentionally build a faulty structure and know that the structure will fail, that is not the fault of the structure.

I appreciate and understand what you are saying. I do find it a terrible thing to think of animals suffering horrible deaths. I love animals and have many. But I also find it terrible to see all kinds of horrible suffering brought about to animals and humans clearly on the part of sinful, greedy, humans. For me it it is a matter of perspective. I think you are looking at things from a finite, temporal view, which is certainly all you can do if you are a materialist. I, though, have an eternal perspective and I believe that while God cares about our suffering here, His plan and goal is eternal. He is not so much concerned with this short time on earth and He is with our eternal destiny. So what you see as a faulty structure, I see as a work in progress. God, in His wisdom, created humans as He did, in His image, with a freewill to choose, with the potential for good or bad consequences, while providing possibility of transformation and eternal freedom.

 

[InChrist]

Free will is an illusion if your God is omnipotent and omniscient. Now you are just quibbling.

You can say freewill is an illusion, but that does not mean you are correct. There is no reason that an omnipotent/omniscient Being could not and does not allow created beings to make real choices.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can say freewill is an illusion, but that does not mean you are correct. There is no reason that an omnipotent/omniscient Being could not and does not allow created beings to make real choices.

You do not appear to understand what the two terms mean.

 

[ecco]

Free will is an illusion if your God is omnipotent and omniscient.

There is no reason that free will and omniscience cannot coexist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There is no reason that free will and omniscience cannot coexist.

That is why I included omniscience. Not only does God know what will happen, he knew it from the start and had the ability to change the outcome. Knowing all would only mean that he knows what would happen, it does not imply an ability to do anything to alter the future, but add in omnipotence and one has a different story.

 

[viole]

Lets not forget, if A&E had not ate from the forbidden tree, there would have been no reason for God to destroy the earth with a flood. Hence no oceans, so we would have more landmass to occupy.

Wow, I could own a bigger lot since there is so much more landmass so now I would not have any neighbors! Watch out everybody, I can walk around naked!

Are you telling me that without sin, I would have now (from my living room) a view on some overpopulated slums instead of a view on the ocean?

If that is the case, then thank you Eve.

Ciao

- viole