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Let's not talk about the Big Bang

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe boring for you and I, but for a religious Jew, especially an Orthodox one, it is among the objects of greatest scrutiny. Strangely enough, Numbers contains my favorite verse in the entirety of the Bible.
Curious which one.
 

Zwing

Active Member
Curious which one.
Numbers 23:9. This is probably because that verse reflects my having, in recent years, come to regard the nation-state with a bit of a jaundiced eye. Partly this is because I feel that as with every human organization, it ends up being self serving, but mostly it is because I perceive that virtually every square foot of habitable land upon this earth is claimed as sovereign territory by one nation-state or another, severely limiting my personal movement on my “home planet”. In this, it is not so much the nation-state that I dislike, as the territorial nation-state. Also, I know that this is the logical consequence of human overpopulation, but that doesn’t seem to make me feel any better about the situation.

BTW, I also feel that Numbers 23:9 is one of the Biblical verses which most centrally describes the Israelite and Jewish people, and especially their traditional tendency towards aloofness and reluctance to assimilation. It bespeaks a people’s determination to maintain its particular identity, and I like that.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
I realize at this point many of you are set in your beliefs and believe in evolution of any kind. Whether on earth or maybe somewhere else in the universe. Have a good day.
I don't know about "many of you" and I am not "set in my beliefs".
I explained a misunderstanding you had regarding that quote. I also explained why astronomers and scientists expect there are many planets that can sustain life.
These are facts. So I'm asking what makes you believe that life isn't abundant in the universe. Your beliefs must have some basis?

Evolution is a different matter. It's just a change in heritable characteristics of biological populations over time. Even if it didn't have massive evidence and it was actually wrong it doesn't suggest we were created by a magic deity. Deities have not been demonstrated and violations of basic physical laws has not been demonstrated. So it's reasonable to believe some natural process happened. Incredible amounts of evidence also points that direction.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
yeah, the math. LOL great. I love it -- "support life..." maybe you think before mankind exterminates itself (which, by the way, I don't think will happen BECAUSE of what the Bible says, but many scientifically inclined persons without hope or knowledge of the holy scriptures do )
The Bible is stories compiled and written by men. Genesis is a re-working of Mesopotamian mythology, this is taught in advanced college Hebrew Bible courses at Yale and Harvard. Yahweh is a typical Near Eastern deity, the commandments are a small part of the Egyptian codes, Proverbs contains an Egyptian book of wisdom, and so on. It looks to be man-made, as all religious scriptures are.
Yahweh said many things that did not come to pass. He said everyone would bow to the Israelite religion. So there is no evidence that what the Bible says is a guide to future happenings.
This is no different than a Muslim saying "well the Quran says that....",



-- astronauts will find "life" that evolved in other places? Or maybe life that just appeared in other places? Or maybe living beings that think and feel will visit the earth?
Other stars are too far away for us to ever get to other solar systems. Not for a long time at least. It's possible there is simple life on the moon Europa because it has water and volcanic vents. Life formed on Earth deep in water near vents as well. We don't know? Of course it's possible.

In the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages the Church thought is was insane to think the Earth wasn't the center of the universe and the sun revolved around it. Illness was caused by God or demons, as was the motion of planets, weather, earthquakes and most things. At this point holding on to archaic concepts based on a religions idea of what humanity is is clearly wrong. Yet for some reason some people cannot let it go.


The life we can somewhat enjoy here is not found any other place. But if you think it may be found, hey, have a nice day if the elements beyond your control permit it. :)
What methodology did you use to determine life exists nowhere else except Earth? All of science believes life is probably common in the universe as does most religious people as well. The old school "it's only us" exists in small pockets of fundamentalists. Were this a few hundred years ago you would be saying germs are not real, God and devils create illness and telling me to have a nice day in your smugness.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It just happened. God did it.
IMO both are beliefs, just at different ends.

I said neither. Both are actually nonsensical in context of what we are talking about.
I'm saying that time is a property of the universe. Just like space is.


The point of the expansion could have existed for infinty. Until our science allows us to go that far back no one knows.
There was, there wasnt... are beliefs.

At T = 0 there is no flow of time going on.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ah, yes! This is very true, and is the reason why I find myself interested in Advaita as the philosophical basis of religion, which is partly why I appear here in the first place. What you speak of is a different category of error. It involves a misperception of certain substantial things which exist, based upon the limitations of the physiology of human sense-perception. Both an apparently solid human being and a collection of atoms which are/is 99.9999996% empty space are real things having substance. The consideration of abstractions as being real, on the other hand, involves not a misperception, but rather a logical error which attributes reality to something merely conceived within the mind.
This makes any conversation about the topic with you an exercise in futility imo.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Naturalism, ie science, is never proven. Science must be independent of emotions, and reason and rational thinking is limited to the independent investigation of knowledge through the scientific methods, which you evade in almost all your posts.

Well, I just learned to do the 7 different versions of science as per Danish culture different than your one natural science. So we are playing cognitive relativism and we deal with that differently.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
The standard GR/space-time model doesn't 'begin' at all. The whole space-time is a 4-dimensional 'object'. Time is entirely internal to it. Things only begin within space-time.
But if we look back in time, we are looking back to a beginning of spacetime. Perhaps science will one day have the ability to see the beginning. The light at the end of the tunnel.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
But if we look back in time, we are looking back to a beginning of spacetime.
You are looking and the furthest point on one direction through the manifold. It makes no more sense to think that is going to give you an answers as to why the space-time exists than looking at the north pole for why the earth exists.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You are looking and the furthest point on one direction through the manifold. It makes no more sense to think that is going to give you an answers as to why the space-time exists than looking at the north pole for why the earth exists.
I am not talking about why space time exists, I already know, you said time only happens in spacetime and I agree. But if there was a beginning, you may theoretically be able to see the beginning from within spacetime.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well, I just learned to do the 7 different versions of science as per Danish culture different than your one natural science. So we are playing cognitive relativism and we deal with that differently.
Still not addressing the issues of science and scientific methods. Again . . .

Naturalism, ie science, is never proven. Science must be independent of emotions, [culture] and reason and rational thinking is limited to the independent investigation of knowledge through the scientific methods, which you evade in almost all your posts.

Need a coherent answer. No games involved here accept you are avoiding to respond. Different variations due to Danish culture? Not remotely relevant without a coherent explanation and references as to how this relates to contemporary science..
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
But if we look back in time, we are looking back to a beginning of spacetime. Perhaps science will one day have the ability to see the beginning. The light at the end of the tunnel.

The nature of the 'tunnel?' will likely be better explained in the future in the nature of the possible relationship between singularities and black holes
 
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