We Never Know
No Slack
I think the phrase is ...
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya"
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Let's not talk about the Big Bang
- Thread starter YoursTrue
- Start date
"Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya"
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Something coming out of nothing is not a scientific theory or idea, it's a religious one.
Well, the earth does not clearly hang on nothing. In fact, it is constrained to follow a well defined relative movement around the sun by a gravitational field. That is, the earth actually hangs on curved spacetime, and it is constrained by it. And curved spacetime is not nothing. Ergo, the earth does not hang on nothing.
unless you can offer us a definition of “nothing” that would save your case, without damaging others.
ciao
- viole
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So the mathematics went over your head? You accepted that it that it described the wavefunction and the "quantum scale" yet when it's pointed out that the mathematics used requires continuous space and time to make sense, it's "nothing of substance". Why you have then gone on paste a whole lot of a page I referenced into your post is totally beyond me. What point do you think it makes?
Firstly, gravity is not covered at all in current, accepted quantum theory. Not as something that emerges or in any other way. The attempts to bring gravity into quantum theory are all speculation and hypothesis.
Continuous space and time are used throughout current, accepted quantum theory. You have been given multiple references that show that to be the case. If you don't understand why the mathematics shows this because you don't know calculus, then I will attempt to explain further. I'm sure others will help too.
On the other hand, you have provided no reference at all that supports your view. The articles you've cited are either clearly hypothesis or they are simply irrelevant (which suggests that you really don't understand the subject).
exchemist
Veteran Member
Ah but you have yet to answer my earlier question to you about what you think is meant by "the quantum scale". Until you do that, nobody can understand what your demand means.
Quantum theory explains the non-classical behaviour of molecules, atoms and sub-atomic particles: all species some of whose properties have magnitudes at which the value of Planck's constant, h, becomes significant. So if I were asked what a term like "the quantum scale" might mean, I would guess it might mean something like that. But evidently that can't be what you mean by it, as you seem to be dismissing the hydrogen atom as an example of something at "the quantum scale".
What, in your view, is "the quantum scale"?
joelr
Well-Known Member
You think all things need a creation story that has to be known? As if we demand and deserve to know the creation of all things.
So for thousands of years, before Genesis all those humans never knew about Genesis. So even if Genesis was true millions of humans didn't get to know?
But getting back to real life for a second, if evolution was wrong, it does not make the Hindu creation story true. It does not make the Mesopotamian creation stories true. Same with Genesis which IS A RE-WRITE of that mythology.
It would mean we don't yet know and we keep looking for clues from all branches of related science.
You sound like you are saying if evolution is false then we would NEED Genesis to be true to have a creation story. We don't need a mythology and we don't get to know everything anyways. We are fortunate to know so much because of science.
Back in only-religion days, germs did not exist, Gods were the cause of illness, weather and everything else. They also healed us. IF someone died it was Gods will. Now, we take a penacillin and live or have surgery and live.
HOWEVER, the evidence at least for natural selection and those aspects of evolution is proven beyond a doubt. We have all the hominid species right from an ape that walked only a little and was fully covered in hair and ate plants. Right up to H. Heidelburgensis which had no fur, made tools, had language, buried their dead and H. Sapien emerged out of over thousands of years.
Evolution is fine and birds and insects are part of it. As I explained self replicating molecules, amino acids, peptides, have been seen and we will continue to piece that puzzle together. Just like we have not finished A.I., we have not finished explaining the origin of life. We are fairly close.
Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?
joelr
Well-Known Member
"Furthermore, such particles should be able to propagate continuously through spacetime and so the object that describes them should "operate" at each point in spacetime. Hence we should consider a field of operators, a so called quantum field?!"
From discrete to continuous - why quantum *fields*?
From what I understand, combining special relativity with quantum mechanics requires quantum field theory (QFT). Why fields? I can see that for quantities already described by classical fields, suc...
Quantum fields should be continuous.
Particle decay cannot be predicted on an individual particle but a collection of unstable particles can be predicted involving a time scale.
Virtual disturbances also do not violate a certain time limit related to their energy. By keeping their time to small enough increments they are allowed to exist.
All this demonstrates time is just as effective at the quantum scale. If time was just an emergent property why would quantum phenomenon obey time? Gravity must operate at the quantum scale, there are microscopic black holes and the event horizon is subatomic.
Audie
Veteran Member
And and and, the Bible proves it happened!
Audie
Veteran Member
And the truly immobile never actually
leave?
Of course, the bye bye bit has a wholly different meaning.
First, the definition of the quantum scale (from Quantum mechanics - Wikipedia):
"Quantum mechanics is a fundamental theory in physics that provides a description of the physical properties of nature at the scale of atoms and subatomic particles.[2]: 1.1 It is the foundation of all quantum physics including quantum chemistry, quantum field theory, quantum technology, and quantum information science."
So, the quantum scale is atomic level and smaller. This is the scale at which Newtonian physics starts to fail and quantum mechanics is required to get correspondence with observations. Your rejection of the hydrogen atom as not on the quantum scale is ludicrous. Quantum mechanics was invented to deal with atoms.
Next, the opposite of 'continuous' is 'discrete'. At the quantum scale (of atoms and subatomic particles), quantum theory uses continuous variables for both space and time. You fail to show any situation where space and time are NOT continuous variables in quantum mechanics. So, you claim that there is no assumption of continuous space and time on the quantum scale is simply false.
Third, there is no accepted quantum theory of gravity. Everything dealing with quantum gravity is speculation at this point. There are proposals, but nothing has been tested, so none is accepted science. So, any treatment of quantum gravity is NOT accepted science.
Fourth, the particle in a box is a standard exercise in quantum theory. As such, it most definitely *is* dealing with things on a quantum scale.
The opposite of 'continuous' is 'discrete'.
OK, I read the reference (why did you feel the need to quote it?). It looks to me like we are dealing with the quantum scale because quantum mechanics is being used.False, it refers to Quantum particles not any particle(?). Read the reference again.
Particle in a box - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
In quantum mechanics, the particle in a box model (also known as the infinite potential well or the infinite square well) describes a particle free to move in a small space surrounded by impenetrable barriers. The model is mainly used as a hypothetical example to illustrate the differences between classical and quantum systems. In classical systems, for example, a particle trapped inside a large box can move at any speed within the box and it is no more likely to be found at one position than another. However, when the well becomes very narrow (on the scale of a few nanometers), quantum effects become important. The particle may only occupy certain positive energy levels. Likewise, it can never have zero energy, meaning that the particle can never "sit still". Additionally, it is more likely to be found at certain positions than at others, depending on its energy level. The particle may never be detected at certain positions, known as spatial nodes.
The particle in a box model is one of the very few problems in quantum mechanics which can be solved analytically, without approximations. Due to its simplicity, the model allows insight into quantum effects without the need for complicated mathematics. It serves as a simple illustration of how energy quantizations (energy levels), which are found in more complicated quantum systems such as atoms and molecules, come about. It is one of the first quantum mechanics problems taught in undergraduate physics courses, and it is commonly used as an approximation for more complicated quantum systems.
Yes, it is a simplified model, but it gives a good first approximation to many situations (including, for example, electron 'dots').
It is a standard example in how quantum mechanics works, so yes, it is dealing with the quantum scale.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Nothing, but you don't know if I am drunk or not. We are doing different cognitive and emotional styles. That is all.
Your quote isn't even a complete sentence. And, again, every treatment of quantum mechanics (which, by the way, makes it at the quantum scale) assumes continuous space and time coordinates. I challenge you to find *one* example in a standard reference that is otherwise.
There are more subtleties in this than you seem to be aware of.
For example, does 'nothing' mean the absence of matter and energy? Or also the absence of space and time? Or is it the complete absence of anything?
Does 'come out of' imply the existence of time? That causality is applicable? That the laws of physics are applicable? If none of those, in what sense is there 'coming out of'?
Next, if 'nothing', in the definition you choose, simply doesn't exist, then we can both agree (maybe?) that existence doesn't 'come out of nothing'. But then, you have to show that anyone is claiming that happens, again, using the definitions you are choosing.
There are more subtleties in this than you seem to be aware of.
For example, does 'nothing' mean the absence of matter and energy? Or also the absence of space and time? Or is it the complete absence of anything?
Does 'come out of' imply the existence of time? That causality is applicable? That the laws of physics are applicable? If none of those, in what sense is there 'coming out of'?
Next, if 'nothing', in the definition you choose, simply doesn't exist, then we can both agree (maybe?) that existence doesn't 'come out of nothing'. But then, you have to show that anyone is claiming that happens, again, using the definitions you are choosing.
Audie
Veteran Member
Or, " How can I miss you if you won't go away"
Audie
Veteran Member
"Subtleties..unaware of" is a defining characteristics of
Creationists.
On the other hand , , , you have not provided on iota of evidence of continuous time/space at the Quantum small scale. You presented 'Particle in a box,' which is not continuous time/space, and a reference showing Quantum properties in the Hydrogen atom on the large scale, These do not represent continuous time at the Quantum small scale as in our macro universe.
Your incompetence in Physics and Quantum Mechanics is appalling.
Still waiting
Anal grammarian nonsense is not a coherent trsponse.
To add we can discuss Quantum gravity, but it is not the important question at hand. At present not known to exist unless we in the future find gravitons, I believe the existence of gravity is dependent on continuous time/space of our universe,
Articles reference in the whole thread were relevant to the question and you ignored them.
To avid distractions the main question remains Does continuous time/space at the Quantum scale. This is the question you ahve avoided providing any references to justify your perspective.
You perpetuate your ignorance by asserting the foolish notion that the research on the 'Particle in a box' refers to 'any particle.'
Still waiting . . .
Meaningless incoherent response without an explanation.
Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. If you have not figured that out you like in a clueless universe. Still no adequate explanation of your odd use of 'discrete. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics. Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' You apparently have not realized the Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.
The bold above needs explanation, because the 'Particle in a Box' ONLY applies to Quantum Particles as referenced.
Electron dots?!?!?!?! They only represent 'symbols' to designate diagram locations of electrons.
6.1 Lewis Electron Dot Symbols | Introductory Chemistry
A Lewis electron dot symbol (or electron dot diagram or a Lewis diagram or a Lewis structure) is a representation of the valence electrons of an atom that uses dots around the symbol of the element. The number of dots equals the number of valence electrons in the atom.
Go ahead and dig your hole deeper.
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