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Let's not talk about the Big Bang

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So the mathematics went over your head? You accepted that it that it described the wavefunction and the "quantum scale" yet when it's pointed out that the mathematics used requires continuous space and time to make sense, it's "nothing of substance". Why you have then gone on paste a whole lot of a page I referenced into your post is totally beyond me. What point do you think it makes?


Firstly, gravity is not covered at all in current, accepted quantum theory. Not as something that emerges or in any other way. The attempts to bring gravity into quantum theory are all speculation and hypothesis.

Continuous space and time are used throughout current, accepted quantum theory. You have been given multiple references that show that to be the case. If you don't understand why the mathematics shows this because you don't know calculus, then I will attempt to explain further. I'm sure others will help too.

On the other hand, you have provided no reference at all that supports your view. The articles you've cited are either clearly hypothesis or they are simply irrelevant (which suggests that you really don't understand the subject).
Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. If you have not figured that out you like in a clueless universe. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics. Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' You apparently have not realized the Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"Furthermore, such particles should be able to propagate continuously through spacetime and so the object that describes them should "operate" at each point in spacetime. Hence we should consider a field of operators, a so called quantum field?!"


Quantum fields should be continuous.
Particle decay cannot be predicted on an individual particle but a collection of unstable particles can be predicted involving a time scale.
Virtual disturbances also do not violate a certain time limit related to their energy. By keeping their time to small enough increments they are allowed to exist.
All this demonstrates time is just as effective at the quantum scale. If time was just an emergent property why would quantum phenomenon obey time? Gravity must operate at the quantum scale, there are microscopic black holes and the event horizon is subatomic.

Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics. Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' The Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Anal grammarian nonsense is not a coherent trsponse.
Than specifically what did you mean to ask?
To add we can discuss Quantum gravity, but it is not the important question at hand. At present not known to exist unless we in the future find gravitons, I believe the existence of gravity is dependent on continuous time/space of our universe,
OK, that is your belief. Now, is it accepted science?
Articles reference in the whole thread were relevant to the question and you ignored them.
Npo, they were not. That you *think* they are just shows your lack of understanding of quantum theory.
To avid distractions the main question remains Does continuous time/space at the Quantum scale. This is the question you ahve avoided providing any references to justify your perspective.
No, I have responded to it several times and you have dismissed what I gave.
You perpetuate your ignorance by asserting the foolish notion that the research on the 'Particle in a box' refers to 'any particle.'

Still waiting . . .
Yes, it does. It refers to any particle at the quantum scale (and, actually, at the larger scale, but then classical mechanics does just as good of a job).
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics.
False. And several references have been given to show this is false.
Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' The Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.
Again, you don't seem to understand the particle in a box. At no point does it refer to 'momentary events' or a non-continuous spacetime.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. If you have not figured that out you like in a clueless universe. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics. Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' You apparently have not realized the Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.

That particle cannot get out of the box because of the infinite potential on the sides. If you do the more realistic analysis where the potential is finite, the math is more complicated, but this is also done in most basic classes. This has the benefit of giving a first treatment of 'quantum tunneling'.
Meaningless incoherent response without an explanation.

Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. If you have not figured that out you like in a clueless universe. Still no adequate explanation of your odd use of 'discrete. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics. Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' You apparently have not realized the Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.
Your statement about time is simply false as shown by multiple standard references about quantum mechanics.
Electron dots?!?!?!?! They only represent 'symbols' to designate diagram locations of electrons.


A Lewis electron dot symbol (or electron dot diagram or a Lewis diagram or a Lewis structure) is a representation of the valence electrons of an atom that uses dots around the symbol of the element. The number of dots equals the number of valence electrons in the atom.

Go ahead and dig your hole deeper.


No, not Lewis diagrams. Sheesh. It looks to me like you are simply googling to see what hits you can get without understanding anything that is being said.

Anyway, until you actually give a reference for your claims that actually supports your claims, I am done.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Than specifically what did you mean to ask?

As specified in the post.

OK, that is your belief. Now, is it accepted science?

No, my view posted here is based on standard Quantum Mechanics,

Your foolish responses is digging your ignorance hole deeper.
Npo, they were not. That you *think* they are just shows your lack of understanding of quantum theory.
Continuous time refers specifically to the nature of time in the macro scale of our universe with 3 D space and gravity. These properties do not exist at the Quantum scale based on basic Quantum Mechanics. Time only exists at the Quantum scale in terms of momentary events involving Quantum particles as described in the 'Particle in a Box.' The Quantum Particle cannot get out of the box.

No, I have responded to it several times and you have dismissed what I gave.

It is easy to dismiss your foolishness, ie {article in a Box' refers to any particle, and your ignorant reference to 'electron dots.'
You need a clear and specific reference concerning 'Particle in a Box' refers to any particle. Hint: The electron can get out of the box.
Yes, it does. It refers to any particle at the quantum scale (and, actually, at the larger scale, but then classical mechanics does just as good of a job).
Nothing in the reference concerning the 'Particle in a Box' referes to anything else but the nature of Quantum particles. Electrons can ger 'Out of the Box.'
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
As specified in the post.
No, it was not.
No, my view posted here is based on standard Quantum Mechanics,
No, it is not. That is what we have been trying to tell you. And, by the way, you now have *three* people who have actually studied quantum mechanics that are pointing out that you are wrong in your understanding in this regard.
Your foolish responses is digging your ignorance hole deeper.
Uh huh. Tell that to the professors that graded my PhD qualifying exam in quantum mechanics.

<the rest deleted as irrelevant>
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That particle cannot get out of the box because of the infinite potential on the sides. If you do the more realistic analysis where the potential is finite, the math is more complicated, but this is also done in most basic classes. This has the benefit of giving a first treatment of 'quantum tunneling'.

Your statement about time is simply false as shown by multiple standard references about quantum mechanics.



No, not Lewis diagrams. Sheesh. It looks to me like you are simply googling to see what hits you can get without understanding anything that is being said.

Anyway, until you actually give a reference for your claims that actually supports your claims, I am done.
No standard references provided to demonstrate your foolish assertion.


Your failure to present a coherent source to support you ridiculous assertions demonstrates you were done a thousand posts ago.

No reference that the Particle in the Box refers to 'any particle' Again . . . the electron can get out of the box.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No, it was not.

No, it is not. That is what we have been trying to tell you. And, by the way, you now have *three* people who have actually studied quantum mechanics that are pointing out that you are wrong in your understanding in this regard.

Uh huh. Tell that to the professors that graded my PhD qualifying exam in quantum mechanics.

<the rest deleted as irrelevant>
More incoherent foolishness. Failure to respond continues, .Nothing of value.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No, my view posted here is based on standard Quantum Mechanics,

It absolutely, 100% is not. You have been shown exactly why it isn't using the basic formulas involved. I find it significant that you've ignored the mathematics. Even the Schrödinger equation itself explicitly has a partial derivative with respect to time in it:

ql_22e8af63ae9dced0493ad807e57da8f0_l3.png


Do you not understand the significance?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
No, it was not.

No, it is not. That is what we have been trying to tell you. And, by the way, you now have *three* people who have actually studied quantum mechanics that are pointing out that you are wrong in your understanding in this regard.

Uh huh. Tell that to the professors that graded my PhD qualifying exam in quantum mechanics.

<the rest deleted as irrelevant>
More incoherent foolishness. Failure to respond continues, .Nothing of value.
I am still waiting for you to respond on what you mean by “the quantum scale”.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
It absolutely, 100% is not. You have been shown exactly why it isn't using the basic formulas involved. I find it significant that you've ignored the mathematics. Even the Schrödinger equation itself explicitly has a partial derivative with respect to time in it:

ql_22e8af63ae9dced0493ad807e57da8f0_l3.png


Do you not understand the significance?

Almost certainly not.

It always amazes me when someone who has never solved a differential equation thinks they know *anything* about QM.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
"Furthermore, such particles should be able to propagate continuously through spacetime and so the object that describes them should "operate" at each point in spacetime. Hence we should consider a field of operators, a so called quantum field?!"


Quantum fields should be continuous.
Particle decay cannot be predicted on an individual particle but a collection of unstable particles can be predicted involving a time scale.
Virtual disturbances also do not violate a certain time limit related to their energy. By keeping their time to small enough increments they are allowed to exist.
All this demonstrates time is just as effective at the quantum scale. If time was just an emergent property why would quantum phenomenon obey time? Gravity must operate at the quantum scale, there are microscopic black holes and the event horizon is subatomic.

To add: Yes the Quantum field is continuous and boundless, and yes particles do propagate continuously, but it remains the time in the Quantum field remain momentary related to Quantum events involving Quantum Particles. This is not the continuous time/space of the 3 D universe with gravity. The Quantum field does not have the 'arrow of time' of the 3 D universe with gravity. Gravity as defined is dependent on continuous time/space of the 3 D universe.


Gravity - In physics, gravity (from Latin gravitas 'weight'[1]) is a fundamental interaction which causes mutual attraction between all things with mass or energy[clarification needed]. Gravity is, by far, the weakest of the four fundamental interactions, approximately 1038 times weaker than the strong interaction, 1036 times weaker than the electromagnetic force and 1029 times weaker than the weak interaction. As a result, it has no significant influence at the level of subatomic particles.[2] However, gravity is the most significant interaction between objects at the macroscopic scale, and it determines the motion of planets, stars, galaxies, and even light.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It absolutely, 100% is not. You have been shown exactly why it isn't using the basic formulas involved. I find it significant that you've ignored the mathematics. Even the Schrödinger equation itself explicitly has a partial derivative with respect to time in it:

ql_22e8af63ae9dced0493ad807e57da8f0_l3.png


Do you not understand the significance?

I understand the basic formula and it's significance, and not in contradiction to my view that 'continuous time/3D space and gravity does not exist at the scale of Quantum particles including atomic particles such as the electron.'
 
Last edited:

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I understand the formula and it's significance, but not related to the question whether 'continuous time/3D space and gravity exist at the scale of Quantum particles.'
Then you don't understand it. :rolleyes:

You can't take a partial derivative with respect to a variable that is not continuous. It doesn't make sense. This is a partial derivative with respect to time. Hence the formula is dealing with continuous time.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Simply the scale of Quantum particles where Quantum Mechanics apply. Also the scale without continuous time/3 D space and gravity of our macro scale universe.
OK but if that’s so why do you not accept that the QM maths of things like the hydrogen atom, or the rotation and vibration of a diatomic molecule, are evidence that space and time are treated as continuous in QM? Is it because you don’t understand that calculus requires continuous variables? Or is it some other reason?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
OK but if that’s so why do you not accept that the QM maths of things like the hydrogen atom, or the rotation and vibration of a diatomic molecule, are evidence that space and time are treated as continuous in QM? Is it because you don’t understand that calculus requires continuous variables? Or is it some other reason?

What you are describing as ;continuous(?) time at the Quantum scale is not the same as continuous time/3 D space with gravity of our macro scale universe,
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Simply the scale of Quantum particles where Quantum Mechanics apply. Also the scale without continuous time/3 D space and gravity of our macro scale universe.

Which one? The first is the typical definition. And the hydrogen atom is on that scale. But the second is, well, without any meaning that I can fathom.

The time in quantum mechanics is *exactly* the same as time anywhere else. In Dirac's equation, it is x_0 (for convenience). In Schrodinger's equation, it is t.
 
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