Let's Present Some Evidence ...

[linwood]

I don't think apes choosing to come down from trees, eventually walking upright and humans evolving with thumbs to be a completely random event. But I guess that's where we differ.

We differ because I understand those apes didn`t "choose" to do anything.

They became unable to do anything else over the course of generations of evolution.

The rise of the human species isn`t an "event" not even a random event.
It`s a series of random events that have brought the species to where it is now without the slightest "idea" of what or where "now" is.

While this was happening there were many more random events occurring that didn`t make the cut, didn`t promote the survival of the organism and died out.

Were these failed events also driven by consciousness?
If so ..why?

 

[Runewolf1973]

We differ because I understand those apes didn`t "choose" to do anything.

They became unable to do anything else over the course of generations of evolution.

The rise of the human species isn`t an "event" not even a random event.
It`s a series of random events that have brought the species to where it is now without the slightest "idea" of what or where "now" is.

While this was happening there were many more random events occurring that didn`t make the cut, didn`t promote the survival of the organism and died out.

Were these failed events also driven by consciousness?
If so ..why?

I believe that humans will come to an end also. Either that, or we will consciously adapt to meet the future requirements of survival. I believe it was all in the conscious will to survive, but not everything always goes as planned does it? There are always mistakes. What force drives a bear mother to protect it's cubs? Does it just protect them out of randomness, or for reason?

 

[linwood]

What force drives a bear mother to protect it's cubs? Does it just protect them out of randomness, or for reason?

What force drives her to eat her cubs?

Reason or random?

Vilma the polar bear ate two of her cubs at a Germany zoo, and experts say they believe the bear thought her cubs were sick.

Polar Bear Eats Cubs

 

[Runewolf1973]

What force drives her to eat her cubs?

Reason or random?

Interesting. I do not know the minds of bears, but perhaps being caged in a zoo and not in it's normal environment resulted in a not-so-normal response. Can bears lose their minds? I don't know. Was it a truly random event, or was the reaction sparked by something else? She may have genuinely thought the two cubs were sick. If that is the case, she had a reason.

 

[linwood]

Interesting. I do not know the minds of bears, but perhaps being caged in a zoo and not in it's normal environment resulted in a not-so-normal response. Can bears lose their minds? I don't know. Was it a truly random event, or was the reaction sparked by something else? She may have genuinely thought the two cubs were sick. If that is the case, she had a reason.

All excellent points as my analogy is not clean but it does bring me this.

Was it a truly random event, or was the reaction sparked by something else?

Arguably sparked by something else something unatural but also unintended and not a "conscious" action aimed at the result.

You seem to be able to believe a random event can be caused by something else setting it off.

I agree.

However is it such a stretch to believe a random event can be caused by another random event setting it off?

If you can conceptualize this can you not conceptualize a never ending series of random events setting off other random events which set off more random events .. infinitely?

Some of these random events realize themselves into some very weird things.
Gravity
Fusion
Woody Allen

This is how I see the interactions of matter/energy in our universe for the most part.

It is also where the bulk of evidence seems to lead considering the OP.

 

[linwood]

I just walked right into the "Prime Mover" argument didn`t I?

 

[Runewolf1973]

I just walked right into the "Prime Mover" argument didn`t I?

I don't believe in God. Anyways, there are some things in nature that are not just random events. For example, how does a newborn whale that is born under the water, that does not apparently know anything, somehow have the awareness to realize it needs to swim up to the surface for air? How does it even know what up is? How do birds know they need to fly south for the winter, or is that just another random event? I believe all these things are programmed into the very conscious being of the animal. It is part of their consciousness that tells them what they need to do to survive.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You seem to be able to believe a random event can be caused by something else setting it off.

I agree.

However is it such a stretch to believe a random event can be caused by another random event setting it off?

I believe both ways are possible.

 

[linwood]

... there are some things in nature that are not just random events. For example, how does a newborn whale that is born under the water, that does not apparently know anything, somehow have the awareness to realize it needs to swim up to the surface for air? How does it even know what up is? How do birds know they need to fly south for the winter, or is that just another random event? I believe all these things are programmed into the very conscious being of the animal. It is part of their consciousness that tells them what they need to do to survive.

I believe this too but I believe all these conscious or even more likely sub-conscious actions stem from random events themselves.

Birds flying south?
The birds that didn`t fly south died.
There aren`t many left.

Aquatic mammals that don`t rise for air die.
(Although I`ve seen more than one video of porpoise births and the mother has aided the calf to the surface every time.)

There were animals of all branches of species that didn`t make it because they were the ones who didn`t have the mutations necessary to aid their survival.

You`re left with the lottery winners at the moment.

 

[PureX]

I receive the same benefits by believing that diamond's there. Again, that has no bearing on the belief's truth value.

Because there's no evidence that the idea of god they choose to believe in exists. Some people care about the truth.

Ah, but there is. There is the evidence of their experience. There is the evidence of reason. And there is the evidence of existence itself.

My alternative is not to believe things based on comfort.

You keep using that word "comfort", as though that's all theism offers. You are really quite wrong about that, and should address that bit of bias in your thinking.

If only my professors let me cite sources like this...

Sorry, but I just don't remember the books and their authors, but they weren't quacks. They were the top people in the field of quantum physics.

 

[PureX]

It was not intended to be insulting, honestly, and in retrospect, the wording was poor. I sincerely was only stating it becuase I believe that you would find the topic of interest. I was not in any way trying to say that I am smarter than you. I apologize for the poor choice of words.

Thanks.

I don't know that neurology would change my thinking, however. The evidence I was trying to offer is based more on quantum physics. I just can't get around the fact that existence has order. And the result of that order is a spectacular variety of forms and conditions and startling complexity. This could not come from chaos or randomness, alone. And it didn't.

At the present time, we have no idea whatever of what is responsible for this order. In fact, we have no idea at all even what "energy" is. Let alone what's ordering it. But the fact that it exists, and manifests itself ultimately as consciousness, and self-consciousness, is stunning. I can't reasonably consider this, and NOT consider some form of intelligence and purpose within it. To simply dismiss it as a collection of random accidents strikes me as flat out irrational.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sure ...

1. The idea of God works for most people most of the time. Ideas that work for us on a regular basis tend to be taken as accurate.

I would tend to agree with you but on the other hand there are those who come in the name of their god causing mayhem to people. So the concept of your god doesn't work for them. Imagine the Myans and other religious based societies where their god supposedly demanded a blood sacrifice....If you are the one being sacrificed then I'd say that idea of a god doesn't work for you.

2. The ordered nature of existence forces us to consider the reality of a "God". Existence is not random. How do we explain this? What is responsible for the order? And why? The answers to these questions are a mystery, and we have named this mystery "God".

It's simple.....There is no such thin as "ordered Nature Of Existence"......

3. Energy can express itself as consciousness (take ourselves as an example), again, forcing us to consider that a consciousness could in turn express itself as energy (in much the same way as matter and energy are interchangeable). If so, all of existence could well be the "mind of God, expressed", just as the ancients claimed.

[/QUOTE]

See MSizer's comment. I agree......

 

[Standup Philosopher]

In the end, we cannot prove anything and choose what to believe. Try to choose wisely; it does matter that what you believe is actually true, because we act on our beliefs.

People who sincerely believe they can fly and jump off five stories go splat. It matters.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well, I don't know what further to add to this topic. I guess that is just why I consider myself an Animist. I believe there is an underlying cause or reason why things are "animated" rather than just static. I think science even shows there is no such thing as a truly "inanimate" object or thing. Everything that exists has movement, vibration, and the ability to change form. I don't believe that God made it happen, nor do I believe it just happens all by itself or just purely out of random, although randomness (chance) can play a role. To everything there is a cause and effect, an action and a reaction. I believe, personally, that cause is consciousness or awareness aka: the spirit. Even as the Bible states, the "spirit of God" is in all things, and I agree with that, I just don't necessarily call it "God". Even in science, we can only peer so far into things when it eventually breaks down to a point where it becomes nothing more than speculation or theory. We only know so much. At the very base of this lies belief. In the end, that is all we have to hold onto. A belief in something, whether it be our scientific theories, our God, or our logic or reasoning. We're all in the same boat when we die. Choose your paddle wisely.

 

[PureX]

I would tend to agree with you but on the other hand there are those who come in the name of their god causing mayhem to people. So the concept of your god doesn't work for them. Imagine the Mayans and other religious based societies where their god supposedly demanded a blood sacrifice....If you are the one being sacrificed then I'd say that idea of a god doesn't work for you.

In the case of the Mayans, I would assert that their gods worked just fine for them. They were a very successful and long-lived civilization that achieved much in terms of the practical sciences. Their downfall came at the hands of another civilization acting on a different god-concept, the Spanish.

But from the Spanish perspective, their god-concept was working quite well for them, as it allowed them to murder and loot an entire civilization while viewing themselves as acting out divine will.

The fact that these cultures and their god-concepts collided, and one culture inevitably lost the battle, doesn't diminish the fact that for each of these cultures, their concepts of god served them long and well.

Unfortunately, neither of these cultures had a god-concept that would enable them to rise above their animal lust for blood and power. So when they met, one inevitably had to destroy the other.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Here is a quote from Albert Einstein....


"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.
But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."

I don't believe that "spirit" Albert Einstein referred to is something supernatural. But then again, our own consciousness is not something "supernatural" either. It exists and we all know it. I just believe that whatever that consciousness is may be manifest in more than just our brains. Perhaps it is "manifest in the laws of the Universe". Perhaps it is the "matrix of all matter". It is after all, another possibility.

 

[YmirGF]

1. The idea of God works for most people most of the time. Ideas that work for us on a regular basis tend to be taken as accurate.

This is little more than a tarted up appeal to numbers fallacy. So what. Lots of people like oranges and like them all their lives. One possible reason why god "works" for many human animals "most of the time" is because there is a distinct tendency to park their doubts in order to free up time to worry over more important aspects of their daily lives. With the "god" question sorted, with neat preformatted answers, the individual has the luxury of pursuing other areas.

2. The ordered nature of existence forces us to consider the reality of a "God". Existence is not random. How do we explain this? What is responsible for the order? And why? The answers to these questions are a mystery, and we have named this mystery "God".

The so-called "ordered nature of the universe" forces no such thing. What do you mean that existence is not random. Probability and Chaos Theory would tend to shoot this idea to Hell in a hand-basket.

3. Energy can express itself as consciousness (take ourselves as an example), again, forcing us to consider that a consciousness could in turn express itself as energy (in much the same way as matter and energy are interchangeable). If so, all of existence could well be the "mind of God, expressed", just as the ancients claimed.

In scientific terms, energy is action or the ability to do work. Consciousness simply doesn't enter into the equation, PureX. If you are intending to define consciousness as energy then do so and prepare yourself for the howls of protest because you simply have no evidence to back up your claim.

 

[PureX]

This is little more than a tarted up appeal to numbers fallacy. So what. Lots of people like oranges and like them all their lives. One possible reason why god "works" for many human animals "most of the time" is because there is a distinct tendency to park their doubts in order to free up time to worry over more important aspects of their daily lives. With the "god" question sorted, with neat preformatted answers, the individual has the luxury of pursuing other areas.

Even if this were true, and I don't think it is, it would still be an example of the god-idea working for those who choose to use it. And I still see it as evidence, then, of it's possible accuracy.

The so-called "ordered nature of the universe" forces no such thing. What do you mean that existence is not random. Probability and Chaos Theory would tend to shoot this idea to Hell in a hand-basket.

It's very simple. Energy (whatever that is) is the fundamental medium of existence. The way energy behaves is not random, and is not infinite. It's limited. Energy can express itself in some ways, but not in other ways. Therefor, the medium from which all things that exist spring, is being controlled (limited). And the way in which it's being controlled dictates how it has and has not expressed itself. Which in turn has resulted in the universe as we know it. Chaos theory is irrelevant to this proposition.

This all begs that we ask some questions: where did this energy come from? And what is governing it's behavior.

In scientific terms, energy is action or the ability to do work. Consciousness simply doesn't enter into the equation, PureX. If you are intending to define consciousness as energy then do so and prepare yourself for the howls of protest because you simply have no evidence to back up your claim.

You and I are evidence that energy expresses itself as consciousness, as we are complex forms made of energy, and therefor through us energy has become self-conscious.

Or has it always been, and we're simply incapable of recognizing it?

 

[Runewolf1973]

You and I are evidence that energy expresses itself as consciousness, as we are complex forms made of energy, and therefor through us energy has become self-conscious.

Or has it always been, and we're simply incapable of recognizing it?

That is what I tend to believe. Perhaps it is the other way around...consciousness expresses itself by taking the form of energy and matter.

 

[Copernicus]

1. The idea of God works for most people most of the time. Ideas that work for us on a regular basis tend to be taken as accurate.

Your slang expression "works for" is too vague to make much sense out of this statement. Insofar as I can make sense of it, it sounds like a fallacious argument from consequences. That is, you seem to be saying that belief in God has good effects, so God exists. That does not follow.

2. The ordered nature of existence forces us to consider the reality of a "God". Existence is not random. How do we explain this? What is responsible for the order? And why? The answers to these questions are a mystery, and we have named this mystery "God".

You can name the mystery anything you want, as long as you do not attribute consciousness, intelligent behavior, emotions, moods, infinite knowledge, infinite power, and other properties to it. And also if you acknowledge that this "God" has nothing to do with the Hebrew and Christian scripture known as the "Bible". I see no point in worshiping the "mystery" either, but you are free to do whatever pleases you.

3. Energy can express itself as consciousness (take ourselves as an example), again, forcing us to consider that a consciousness could in turn express itself as energy (in much the same way as matter and energy are interchangeable). If so, all of existence could well be the "mind of God, expressed", just as the ancients claimed.

It does appear likely that our physical brains cause consciousness, insofar as damage to those brains causes its lack. It does not seem to me a necessary conclusion that consciousness in any way has a reciprocal effect on the physical world. Einstein has shown us how energy and matter are related, but no scientist has ever shown a similar reciprocity for mind and matter. And I have no idea why you think that the "ancients" were in a better position than us to understand reality. After all, they couldn't do half of what we can with it.