There are other religions.
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Let's Present Some Evidence ...
- Thread starter PureX
- Start date
PureX
Veteran Member
Logic has it's place, and value. But it's not the magic totem of all truth. We have a lot of other tools.
I have heard people honestly claim that "truth" is nothing more than the concept of truth. In that case, the meaning they attach to an idea is not only the only "truth value" that idea has, but is truth itself.
Atheologian
John Frum
Since evidence seems to be subject to point-of-view, Here's a thinking excersize:
Consider the Tuka Movement in Fiji in 1885 or the Taro Cult in northern Papua New Guinea in 1919. These were "cargo" cults. The native people built planes, control towers and runways out of straw and sticks. They even made fake headsets and flares. There is still one such cult, in Tanna, Vanuatu. They worship John Frum, and believe that he will return one day, to kick all the white people out of their lands and bring them all the "cargo", manufactured clothes and supplies and canned foods, they will ever need.
Knowing where the cargo actually comes from, knowing John Frum never existed (he was a fictional character made up by a native named Manehivi) and knowing that straw planes and control towers will not produce cargo from the skies, would you believe in John Frum?
Don't be so quick to say no. What if I told you John Frum was just another way to say nature? John Frum is real, he talks to me? Guides me? Just because the story behind John Frum was a misunderstanding on the behalf of the native people, not realizing that World War II planes were dropping this cargo and using the island as a jump spot, why should I renounce the existence of John Frum?
No, John Frum is very real. He is real in the hearts of the natives. John Frum is every bit as real as any other deity, which says quite a bit. If we were to explain the origins of the cargo, show them how it was produced, where it came from and how it got there, I'm sure there would still be natives that insisted, "That doesn't mean John Frum isn't real..."
Consider the Tuka Movement in Fiji in 1885 or the Taro Cult in northern Papua New Guinea in 1919. These were "cargo" cults. The native people built planes, control towers and runways out of straw and sticks. They even made fake headsets and flares. There is still one such cult, in Tanna, Vanuatu. They worship John Frum, and believe that he will return one day, to kick all the white people out of their lands and bring them all the "cargo", manufactured clothes and supplies and canned foods, they will ever need.
Knowing where the cargo actually comes from, knowing John Frum never existed (he was a fictional character made up by a native named Manehivi) and knowing that straw planes and control towers will not produce cargo from the skies, would you believe in John Frum?
Don't be so quick to say no. What if I told you John Frum was just another way to say nature? John Frum is real, he talks to me? Guides me? Just because the story behind John Frum was a misunderstanding on the behalf of the native people, not realizing that World War II planes were dropping this cargo and using the island as a jump spot, why should I renounce the existence of John Frum?
No, John Frum is very real. He is real in the hearts of the natives. John Frum is every bit as real as any other deity, which says quite a bit. If we were to explain the origins of the cargo, show them how it was produced, where it came from and how it got there, I'm sure there would still be natives that insisted, "That doesn't mean John Frum isn't real..."
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Atheologian
John Frum
There are other religions.
yeah, and they don't call him GOD.
If he developed his idea of God from another religion, he'd have another name for God.
This goes hand in hand with my John Frum thinking experiment.
He didn't say Shiva, Anshu, Baal, Charun, Dagon, Fenrir, Epona, Zeus or Gaia. He didn't say Ganesha, or Ymir, or Thor, or Mot, or Hotei, he said GOD, and he used it to refer to the name of the Deity. I suggest that if one hopes to make a distinction between his or her own made up deity and one that already exists (figuratively, of course), they choose a different name. Any confusion about what god you actaully believe in should be cleared up that way.
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Atheologian
John Frum
that's crap. It's either true or it isn't. Just because I say my eyes are blue, and you say they are brown, that doesn't make both statements true. One is true, one is not.
It's easy to revert into cyclical logic and metaphorical nonsense, like "your truth may be different than my truth". That only means that one of those "truths" is actually a "falsehood".
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PureX
Veteran Member
LOL!!! You guys crack me up!
LOL!!! Oh, my goodness! Now theists are the equivalent of murderers and rapists? *haha* A heinous crime, it surely is, to disagree with the mighty Atheologian ...
What does our believing it have anything to do with things? Must we believe everything everyone else believes?
"God" in this thread isn't being used as "his name", just an "it". You'll find that quite common on Religions Forums.
I agree that a truthful thing is either true or it isn't, but perhaps we should listen to what is being declared "true" before making judgement.
PureX
Veteran Member
The problem with you 'argumentum ad populum' objection is that it comes from an old philosophical format that was designed to get at a static, objective idea of truth. In the several hundred intervening years since these philosophical rules were invented, our collective concept of truth has changed considerably, to the point where many of these old rules just don't apply, anymore.
In the case of our discussion, we are not pursuing an objective truth, like those philosophers of days of old. We are pursuing a concept of truth, now, that does in fact live in the minds of humans, only. And as such, the 'argumentum ad populum' actually becomes a viable bit of evidence, rather than an objectionable misdirection. In the modern world, we don't get to own some absolute objective static truth. The best we can do is a glimpse at a dynamic, relative, and limited truth. And we each are going to get that glimpse from our own unique place in time and space. Suddenly, our opinions have become a lot more important than they once were. And that includes mass opinion.
Atheologian
John Frum
Atheologian
John Frum
A truth that only lives in the minds of humans, is called an IDEA. A thought. It hardly means that anything we imagine is suddenly true.
Atheologian
John Frum
Religion is a major cause of murder and rape, as well as other "heinous" crimes. You laughing it off doesn't change that.
Atheologian
John Frum
I have, and came to the conclusion that the truth is something you can test and verify. Not something each person makes up in their own head, or finds in a book written by superstitious fools.
Atheologian
John Frum
Since evidence seems to be subject to point-of-view, Here's a thinking excersize:
Consider the Tuka Movement in Fiji in 1885 or the Taro Cult in northern Papua New Guinea in 1919. These were "cargo" cults. The native people built planes, control towers and runways out of straw and sticks. They even made fake headsets and flares. There is still one such cult, in Tanna, Vanuatu. They worship John Frum, and believe that he will return one day, to kick all the white people out of their lands and bring them all the "cargo", manufactured clothes and supplies and canned foods, they will ever need.
Knowing where the cargo actually comes from, knowing John Frum never existed (he was a fictional character made up by a native named Manehivi) and knowing that straw planes and control towers will not produce cargo from the skies, would you believe in John Frum?
Don't be so quick to say no. What if I told you John Frum was just another way to say nature? John Frum is real, he talks to me? Guides me? Just because the story behind John Frum was a misunderstanding on the behalf of the native people, not realizing that World War II planes were dropping this cargo and using the island as a jump spot, why should I renounce the existence of John Frum?
No, John Frum is very real. He is real in the hearts of the natives. John Frum is every bit as real as any other deity, which says quite a bit. If we were to explain the origins of the cargo, show them how it was produced, where it came from and how it got there, I'm sure there would still be natives that insisted, "That doesn't mean John Frum isn't real..."
Replace "JOHN FRUM" with whatever you call your deity. This is how the non religious view the religious, in the wake of knowledge and scientific advancement.
Consider the Tuka Movement in Fiji in 1885 or the Taro Cult in northern Papua New Guinea in 1919. These were "cargo" cults. The native people built planes, control towers and runways out of straw and sticks. They even made fake headsets and flares. There is still one such cult, in Tanna, Vanuatu. They worship John Frum, and believe that he will return one day, to kick all the white people out of their lands and bring them all the "cargo", manufactured clothes and supplies and canned foods, they will ever need.
Knowing where the cargo actually comes from, knowing John Frum never existed (he was a fictional character made up by a native named Manehivi) and knowing that straw planes and control towers will not produce cargo from the skies, would you believe in John Frum?
Don't be so quick to say no. What if I told you John Frum was just another way to say nature? John Frum is real, he talks to me? Guides me? Just because the story behind John Frum was a misunderstanding on the behalf of the native people, not realizing that World War II planes were dropping this cargo and using the island as a jump spot, why should I renounce the existence of John Frum?
No, John Frum is very real. He is real in the hearts of the natives. John Frum is every bit as real as any other deity, which says quite a bit. If we were to explain the origins of the cargo, show them how it was produced, where it came from and how it got there, I'm sure there would still be natives that insisted, "That doesn't mean John Frum isn't real..."
Replace "JOHN FRUM" with whatever you call your deity. This is how the non religious view the religious, in the wake of knowledge and scientific advancement.
PureX
Veteran Member
Deities don't have names except for the ones that specific human cultures apply to them. In this culture, we refer to our concept of deity as "God". I almost always put "God" in quotation marks so that people will understand that I am using the term culturally.
Atheologian
John Frum
If you are using the term culturally, than obviously you do mean God in the biblical sense. Don't you mean you use the term philosophically?
Either way, making up a god in your head to fit your own needs is borderline schitzophrenic.
What you did was borrow the idea of a supreme being, and applied your own ideals and morals to it.
If you want to debate that, we can. Just ask any two moderate theists what their idea of "God" is. You'll never get the same answer, and you'll have to dig through meaningless philosophical banter to get there.
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It sounded more like a believing exericse to me.
But do we imagine that the "truth" we find, testable and verifiable, is all the testable and verifiable truth that there is to find in the books written by superstitious fools?