Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

[stevecanuck]

I think these are interesting articles:

What Is the Difference Between Islam and Islamism?

In the immediate aftermath of the September 11 tragedy, one commentator noted that the attacks climaxed almost two decades of terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam--a bloody, violent era that began with the suicide bombings against American and French peacekeeping forces in...

www.historynewsnetwork.org

Okay, one at a time. I read the whole thing, and as I expected, there was a whole lot of tap-dancing. The plain (and ugly) truth is that Islam and "Islamism" are the same thing. It is a creed of domination, pure and simple. After 20+ years of evolution, Islam can be summed up by reading Surah 9. It is a call to arms that commands Muslims to "go forth in the cause of Allah" and to "fight those who believe not in Allah".

Some things are as simple as they sound, and this is one of them.

 

[stevecanuck]

Muslims vs. Islamists

Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety; it is, rather, a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

From the article: "Islamism is anti-Semitic in promoting the view that Jews are evil." They get that directly from the Qur'an:

- 2:75 - "They [Jews] willfully distorted the word of Allah".
- 2:76-78 - "They [Jews] would hear the word of God and understand it. Then they would purposely misinterpret it."
- 2:79 - "Then woe to those [Jews] who wrote the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah', to traffic with it for a miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby."
- 2:83 - "You [Jews] turned back (on your covenant with God) except a few of you."
- 2:85 - "But what is the reward for those among you [Jews] who behave like this but disgrace in this life? ... And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty."
- 2:87 - "Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant?"
- 2:88 - "Allah has cursed them for their disbelief."
- 2:89 - "When there came to them a Book from God [the Qur'an], confirming what was with them [the Torah/Old Testament], they disbelieved in it; and the curse of God is on the unbelievers."
- 2:90 - "Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny which Allah has sent down [the Qur'an] ... Thus have they drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith."
- 2:92 - "You [Jews] were evildoers."
- 2:93 - "Their hearts absorbed (the worship of) the calf because of their disbelief. Say [to the Jews, Mohamed], "How wretched is that which your faith enjoins upon you".
- 2:94-96 - "Say [to the Jews, Mohamed]: If the future abode with Allah is specially for you to the exclusion of the people, then invoke death if you are truthful. But they will never seek death, on account of the (sins) which their hands have sent on before them. and Allah is well-acquainted with the wrong-doers. Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life."
- 2:105 - "those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture ... wish that any good [the Qur'an] should be sent down to you [Mohamed] from your Lord".
- 2:109 - "Many Jews and Christians (People of the Book) wish they could cause you (Muslims) to backslide from Islam, but be patient with them until Allah gives His command."
- 2:111 - "And they say, 'None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian.' That is their wishful thinking."
- 2:120 - "And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion."
- 2:135 - "They say, 'Be Jews or Christians so you will be guided.'"
- 2:140 - "Say [to the Jews and Christians, Mohamed], 'Are you more knowing or is Allah?' And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony [the Qur'an] he has from Allah?"
- 2:211 - "Ask the Children of Israel how many clear signs We gave them. Whoever changes God's blessing after it has come to him, God is terrible in retribution."
- 3:19 - "In the sight of God Islam is the religion. The People of the Book created differences in the matters (of religion) because of their hostility among themselves ... Let whoever denies the revelations of God know that the reckoning of God is swift."
- 3:65-66 - "Ask the People of the Book, "Why do you argue about Abraham? ... Why do you not understand? You even argue about what is already known to you. What can you learn from arguing about something of which you have no knowledge?"
- 3:69 - "A group among the People of the Book would love to mislead you."
- 3:70 - "People of the Book! Why do you reject the Signs of Allah, of which you are witnesses?"
- 3:71 - "O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): 'Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?'"
- 3:72 - "A section of the People of the Book say: 'Believe in the morning what is revealed [the Qur'an] to the believers [Muslims], but reject it at the end of the day.'"
- 3:78 - "There is among them a party who alter the Scripture ... they say, 'This is from Allah ,' but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know."
- 3:82 - "If any turn back (from the covenant with God), they are perverted transgressors".
- 3:83 - "Do they seek for something other than the religion of God [Islam]"?
- 3:85 - "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted from him."
- 3:87 - "On them rests the curse of God, his angels, and all of mankind".
- 3:88 - "Their penalty will not be lightened".
- 3:90 - "Those who reject faith [Islam]...never will their repentance be accepted".
- 3:91 - "Those who die rejecting faith [Islam]...for such is a grievous penalty".
- 3:98 - "Say [Mohamed]: 'People of the Book, why do you disbelieve in the signs of God?"
- 3:99 - "Say [Mohamed]: 'People of the Book, why do you bar from God's way the believer?"
- 3:100 - "O believers, if you obey a sect of those who have been given the Book, they will turn you, after you have believed, into disbelievers."
- 3:101 - "[Jews] How can you disbelieve, seeing you have God's signs recited to you?"
- 3:110 - "If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient."
- 3:111 - "If they [Jews] fight against you, they will show you their backs, and they will not be helped."
- 3:112 - "Shame is pitched over them (Like a tent) wherever they are found ... they draw on themselves wrath from Allah, and pitched over them is (the tent of) destitution. This because they rejected the Signs of Allah ... this because they rebelled and transgressed beyond bounds."
- 3:118 - "O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks [non-Muslims]: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse." ... that they yearn for you [Muslims] to suffer Hatred has already shown itself out of their mouths"
- 3:119-120 - "When they meet you, they say, 'We believe': But when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. If good touches you, it distresses them; but if harm strikes you, they rejoice at it."

 

[stevecanuck]

Muslims vs. Islamists

Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety; it is, rather, a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

continued ...

- 4:46 - "Among the Jews are those who distort words from their (proper) usages ... twisting their tongues and defaming the religion [Islam] ... Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
- 4:47 - "O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [the Qur'an], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers." [This threatens the Jews with being turned into apes as their ancestors were.]
- 4:51-52 - "Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture [Jews and Christians], who believe in superstition and false objects of worship. These are the ones whom Allah has cursed."
- 4:54 - "Are they jealous of the people [Muslims] for the bounty that God has given them?"
- 4:55-56 - "Surely those who disbelieve in Our signs [including the Qur'an] We shall certainly roast them at a Fire; As often as their skins are wholly burned, We shall give them in exchange other skins, that they may taste the chastisement."
- 4:154-157 - "We took from them [Jews] a solemn compact. However, because of their disbelief, disregard of their covenant, denial of God's revelations, murdering the Prophets without reason, and their saying that their hearts were covered, We sealed up their hearts ... And because of their disbelief and uttering against Mary a grave false charge ... and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'."
- 4:160-161 - "For the wrongdoing of the Jews, We made unlawful to them certain good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their hindering many from Allah's Way, and for their taking usury, that they were prohibited, and consuming the wealth of the people in vanity."
- 5:13 - "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you [Muslims] shall always discover treachery in them except a few of them."
- 5:18 - "And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: 'We are the children of Allah and His loved ones.' Say [to them, Mohamed]: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?'"
- 5:41 - " ... the Jews, avid listeners to falsehood ... They distort words beyond their usages ... listening to other people who have not come to you [not converted to Islam] ... They distort words ... Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment."
- 5:42 - "[Jews are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of what is unlawful [usury]."
- 5:43 - "They are not believers".
- 5:44 - "Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light ... And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, then it is those who are the disbelievers."
- 5:45 - "whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed [including the Qur'an], then it is those who are the wrongdoers."
- 5:47 - "whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, [including the Qur'an] those are they that are the transgressors."
- 5:49 - "Do not follow their [Jews and Christians] desires. Beware of their mischievous deception concerning some of the matters that God has revealed to you [the Qur'an]."
- 5:51 - "O you who have believed [Muslims], do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people."
- 5:57 - "O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians]."
- 5:58 - "And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke."
- 5:59 - "Say [Mohamed]: 'O people of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation [the Qur'an] that has come to us ... and that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"
- 5:60 - "Say [Mohamed], 'Should I tell you who will receive the worst punishment from God? Those whom God has condemned, afflicted with His anger, made apes out of them [Jews of old], swine and worshipers of Satan, will have the worst dwelling and will wander far away from the right path.'"
- 5:61 - "When they come to you, they say, 'We believe'; but they have entered in unbelief."
- 5:62 - "You can see many of them competing with each other in sin, hostility, and in taking usury. What they had been doing was certainly evil."
- 5:63 - "Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their speaking evil and their devouring of illicit gain [usury]? Evil is their handiwork."
- 5:64 - "And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled [instead] and they shall be cursed for what they say ... and what has been revealed [the Qur'an] to you [Mohamed] from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers."
- 5:65 - "And if only the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] had believed and feared Allah, We would have removed from them their misdeeds and admitted them to Gardens of Pleasure."
- 5:68 - "Say [Mohamed], 'O People of the Scripture, you are standing on nothing until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed [the Qur'an] to you [Mohamed] from your Lord.' And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people."
- 5:70 - "We had already taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and had sent to them messengers. Whenever there came to them a messenger with what their souls did not desire, a party of messengers they denied, and another party they killed."
- 5:71 - "And they thought there would be no resulting punishment, so they became blind and deaf. Then Allah turned to them in forgiveness; then many of them became blind and deaf."
- 5:80-81 - "How wretched is that which they have put forth for themselves in that Allah has become angry with them, and in the punishment they will abide eternally ... many of them are of evil conduct."
- 5:82 - "You will find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe [Muslims] to be the Jews and idolaters."
- 7:176 - "So his [unbeliever] example is like that of the dog: if you chase him, he pants, or if you leave him, he pants. That is the example of the people who denied Our signs."
- 7:178-179 - "Those whom God has guided have the true guidance, but those whom He has caused to go astray [from Islam] are certainly lost ... They have hearts but do not understand, eyes but do not see. They have ears but do not hear. They are worse than lost cattle."
- 8:55 - "For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him."
- 9:29 - "Fight against those who believe not in Allah ... and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [Islam] among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya [protection tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
- 9:30-32 - "The Jews say, 'Ezra is the Son of God.' [No, they do not] The Christians say, 'The Messiah is the Son of God.' That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming with the unbelievers before them. God assail them! How they are perverted! ... They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from God ... They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths."
- 16:118 - "And unto those who are Jews ... We wronged them not, but they were wont to wrong themselves."
- 62:5 - "Those who were to carry the responsibility of the Torah [Jews] but ignored it, are like donkeys laden with books. How terrible is the example of the people who reject the revelations of God. God does not guide the unjust."
- 62:6-7 - "Say [Mohamed]: You who are Jews! If you claim that you are favoured of Allah apart from mankind, then long for death if you are truthful. But they will not wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers."
- 98:6 - "Indeed, those who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the polytheists [Meccan Pagans] will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures."

 

[The Hammer]

Keep yelling into the void @stevecanuck , your doing a good job!

 

[stevecanuck]

Muslims vs. Islamists

Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety; it is, rather, a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from Islam.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

From the article, "Islamism is therefore not about the Islamic faith. Rather, it is a dystopian ideology that distorts religion and reality to fit its "anti-" platform."

This is the politically correct sort of nonsense that we MUST nod in agreement to unless we want to be branded 'Islamophobes'. This is 100% uncut propaganda. Please don't fall for it.

 

[stevecanuck]

Keep yelling into the void @stevecanuck , your doing a good job!
View attachment 98110

Damn it. You caught me making things up.

So, you win. We both know that none of the above actually appears in the Qur'an.

 

[The Hammer]

Damn it. You caught me making things up.

So, you win. We both know that none of the above actually appears in the Qur'an.

Oh, that's what you thought I meant.

Oops.

 

[gotti]

Hot new take:

The prefix "-phobia" should start to be dissipated from the common English vernacular in a culture that is rapidly and increasing encouraging and endorsing self-victiminzation.

If someone genuinely hates a specific group, that's a problem.

But if there are knee-jerk reactions to people with valid critiques of ideas or sociological concepts, accusations of bigotry and prejudice have become all too easy for people to default to and it's caused a phenomenon that I think is destructive to society - creating problems where there are no problems by shutting down discussion about relevant issues.

I'm sure plenty of women in Iran and Afghanistan would be absolutely disgusted appalled by some of the posts in this thread. And some of the western glossing over of some of the more dangerous and harmful interpretations of Islam that are still very much alive and well in the world and aren't going anywhere soon.

 

[BrightShadow]

I did not say you cannot read Quran yourself, I said you can’t rely on your own interpretation- you have to accept guidance from the scholars to make sure the interpretation is Islamic.

Are you speaking for yourself? Of course if you think you are not capable to use your own head to understand simple verses then by all means run to your priests/pastors/rabbis/ or even Imams. But it is expected that you understand simple verses.
Quran can be divided into two parts:
1) A historical document
2) A book of rules.
You need help with the historical parts if you don't know the history
BUT the other parts - it is expected you can understand basic guidelines.


By the way - how do you decide who is a scholar?
A chief of the department of Cardiology (a physician) who is of Afghan origin; who grew up in Pakistan decided to translate Quran in his spare time - suddenly became a linguistic expert over night without getting a PHD in Arabic language and also became an expert historian on every kind of socio-cultural factors without getting a degree in history? He becomes a scholar in your eyes because some Muslims respected him as a figure and some websites quoted him here and there!
Very gullible!


But if someone shows you the truth and tells you simply see it for yourself and use your own head - you don't want to! You rather believe your scholar. Why? Is it hard to read verse 65:1 and then read 65:4?

You may sound a bit contained in what you say and you are not bombastic like the original poster but you and the OP are two peas in a pod!

By the way - all translations are good for some verses - but not all verses. I pointed out the reason for that in my last post addressed to you.
Even while reading translations - you still have to use your own head. If you use your own head and take the entire teachings of the Quran and look at verse 4:6 then you would never believe any scholar that Islam advocates child marriage.
It doesn't!

 

[BrightShadow]

Damn it. You caught me making things up.

So, you win. We both know that none of the above actually appears in the Qur'an.

Take off your orange shades.
If you have a orange sunglasses on - everything will look orange to you!

 

[England my lionheart]

“Islamophobia” just got a reality check,the Labour party’s adoption of the definition of has been found out,here’s Angela No Brainer:

Really is a “no brainier”,laughable really,Labour will hope this drifts away without much notice but it’s still in the party rules,the Labour Party has no substance at all.

 

[Augustus]

And some of the western glossing over of some of the more dangerous and harmful interpretations of Islam that are still very much alive and well in the world and aren't going anywhere soon.

Do many people gloss over “the more dangerous and harmful interpretations of Islam”?

Do many folk say ISIS and the Taliban are pretty decent chaps overall?

Generally, it seems to be that folk object to the insistence that these are the normative and “true” versions of Islam that have existed since the time of Muhammad and that all other versions are false (i.e the claim that the fundamentalists are the “real” Muslims and others are dishonest or ignorant).

Now some folk do take it too far the other way and insist that “bad Muslims” are the ones who are wrong and “moderate Muslims” are the ones practicing the “true” religion.

Religions are living and adaptive trends that really only exist as practiced, not as some “true” form that can be recovered from texts and musing about history.

All history, but especially sacred history, is as much about the present as the past, and ancient history is about the present and all of the previous “presents” that helped create the myths, methods and interpretations of the past.

I mean, folk will quote the 7th c Quran and then try to fix its meaning with Kathir’s 14th c tafsir without considering why any 14th c tafsir should be considered authoritative given its very existence proves meanings have never been fixed.

“The story of an event is made up of the sum of the factual data of that event and the transformations, interpolations, manipulations that followed, until they form an integral part of the event itself. The more this is studied, the more this reveals itself as different from the way it has been handed down, the more it is evident that it will never be entirely possible to reconstruct it, because the infiltration of the propaganda began immediately with its very first historical narration.
The event itself, as it happened, can never be truly reconstructed. This is true for modern and even more so for ancient historical events.”

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I mean, folk will quote the 7th c Quran and then try to fix its meaning with Kathir’s 14th c tafsir without considering why any 14th c tafsir should be considered authoritative given its very existence proves meanings have never been fixed.

the question should be why IS Kathir considered an authority, not “should he be” because he is considered an authority, which I'm assuming is why his Tafsirs have been translated into English for non-Arabic speaking Muslims
Of course meanings are not fixed so it comes down to finding a scholar that disagrees on a particular issue, if one can be found

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the question should be why IS Kathir considered an authority..

He is a respected scholar .. but not infallible.

 

[Augustus]

the question should be why IS Kathir considered an authority

Largely due to the Saudis iirc.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

He is a respected scholar .. but not infallible.

Well.. there you go

 

[Augustus]

I'm assuming is why his Tafsirs have been translated into English for non-Arabic
speaking Muslims

Think of it as being similar to why US Protestant fundamentalist churches tend to be better funded in their global evangelism than liberal Episcopalian churches.

It’s nothing to do with their theology being more “authoritative” or true to the origins of the faith, just that the fundies have more money and motivation to spread their particular spin on the texts than others.

(The ibn Taymiyya/Kathir theological tree is sort of a rough analogue of Protestant literalism)

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Think of it as being similar to why US Protestant fundamentalist churches tend to be better funded in their global evangelism than liberal Episcopalian churches.

It’s nothing to do with their theology being more “authoritative” or true to the origins of the faith, just that the fundies have more money and motivation to spread their particular spin on the texts than others.

(The ibn Taymiyya/Kathir theological tree is sort of a rough analogue of Protestant literalism)

Is Islamic scholarship in which a scholar has to meet a certain criteria to be able to even write Tafsir, really the same as a fundy church in America where they only know how to read and write in English?

 

[Augustus]

Is Islamic scholarship in which a scholar has to meet a certain criteria to be able to even write Tafsir, really the same as a fundy church in America where they only know how to read and write in English?

Pretty much given the main theological differences relate to method rather than linguistic prowess.

Obviously they aren’t exact analogues, but salafi attempts to revert to a pure scriptural religion and reject the innovations of the “pagan” corrupters of the faith do kind of rhyme with the anti Catholics of the reformation.