Let's see if we can define 'Islamophobia'.

[BrightShadow]

I believe Quran 65:4 does give reference to child marriage when it talks about the Iddah if you read the tasfir of that verse by ibn Kathr
I also spoke to someone from Morocco who said he has a master’s in Islamic studies and he explained to me there that is no age limit to marriage but when it comes to consummating the marriage that’s when you need to look for signs of maturity however for girls if in doubt you can go by 9 years of age (I’m assuming because there is agreement that Muhammad consummated the marriage with Aisha at 9) and boys 15. He said he hasn’t come across an Islamic scholar that disagrees.
I also asked him about sex slavery and he said you have to provide basic necessities for slaves - food, shelter & clothes but if a female slave is kept for sexual purposes you don’t need her consent for sex so rape is permitted in that context

Can a nine year old own property (house, land)? Even in todays world - it is almost NEVER allowed.
So, why are you trying to ignore [Quran 4:6] and bringing in a 3rd person from Morocco to tell you what is allowed and what not?

What is in it for you? Do you want Quran to allow what you are seeking?

Don't live in the past and don't worry about what earlier folks did. Many factors were behind their motives to ignore [verse 4:6]
You don't need any so-called Islamic scholars to interpret verse 4:6 from the Quran for you.

 

[stevecanuck]

I don't know why you asking something you could easily google yourself.
There are many ways it was restricted as opposed to these pre-existing practices - practiced by non Muslims of the same era.

1. War can only be fought for defensive reasons - so that restricts the opportunity because you cannot just randomly attack and get some.

Every time a Muslim says this, I ask them what a Muslim army was doing in places like France and India, and how their invasions can be considered "self defense". Let me add you to that list.

 

[stevecanuck]

Can a nine year old own property (house, land)? Even in todays world - it is almost NEVER allowed.
So, why are you trying to ignore [Quran 4:6] and bringing in a 3rd person from Morocco to tell you what is allowed and what not?

What is in it for you? Do you want Quran to allow what you are seeking?

Don't live in the past and don't worry about what earlier folks did. Many factors were behind their motives to ignore [verse 4:6]
You don't need any so-called Islamic scholars to interpret verse 4:6 from the Quran for you.

You deflected and ignored his question about 65:4.

Mohsin Khan is crystal clear in his interpretation of "for those who have no courses", as he adds "(i.e. they are still immature)".

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Can a nine year old own property (house, land)? Even in todays world - it is almost NEVER allowed.
So, why are you trying to ignore [Quran 4:6] and bringing in a 3rd person from Morocco to tell you what is allowed and what not?

What is in it for you? Do you want Quran to allow what you are seeking?

Don't live in the past and don't worry about what earlier folks did. Many factors were behind their motives to ignore [verse 4:6]
You don't need any so-called Islamic scholars to interpret verse 4:6 from the Quran for you.

“Test ˹the competence of˺ the orphans until they reach a marriageable age. Then if you feel they are capable of sound judgment, return their wealth to them.”


Right so if we look at the Tafsir:

Holding the Property of the Unwise in Escrow​

Allah prohibited giving the unwise the freedom to do as they wish with wealth, which Allah has made as a means of support for people. This ruling sometimes applies because of being young, as young people are incapable of making wise decisions. It also applies in cases of insanity, erratic behavior and having a weak intellect or religious practice. It applies in cases of bankruptcy, when the debtors ask that the property of a bankrupt person is put in escrow, when his debts cannot be paid off with his money. Ad-Dahhak reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah's statement,

وَلاَ تُؤْتُواْ السُّفَهَآءَ أَمْوَلَكُمُ

(And give not unto the unwise your property) refers to children and women. Similar was also said by Ibn Mas`ud, Al-Hakam bin `Uyaynah, Al-Hasan and Ad-Dahhak: "Women and boys." Sa`id bin Jubayr said that `the unwise' refers to the orphans. Mujahid, `Ikrimah and Qatadah said; "They are women."


So basically it has nothing to do with age restrictions around marriage, but advises to be cautious when handing wealth to young people (as well as women according to ibn Kathir) so even if you think they are marriagable, you should still exercise caution when allowing them financial independence.

I appreciate and prefer your version of it and you seem like a wonderful person, but I didn’t write these books so it’s nothing to do with me. if you don’t like the scholars I don’t know what to say to that, respectfully

 

[BrightShadow]

Every time a Muslim says this, I ask them what a Muslim army was doing in places like France and India, and how their invasions can be considered "self defense".

I already responded on your inquiry about France on page 6 post#118. You didn't read it?

You went on silent mode. Now you resurfaced again with more of the same garbage!

As I predicted - you are not here to learn. You don't read any responses. You are eagerly waiting to find something to write against Islam. You are on a mission to try and demean the religion of Islam. But you are failing miserably. Even ChatGPT is your enemy now.

Have you played those videos I posted? Check it out on page 16 post# 308

ChatGPT is here to correct you. So you better close your shop and run! No one will buy in your false propaganda anymore. Folks can just ask ChatGPT whatever they need to know.

I asked you once, are you a paid shill? Why are you trying to sell false narratives about Islam to desperately?


You already asked about France & I already responded!

Your actual question was - and I quote - "What was an invading Muslim army doing in France in 732?"

Here was my response...
First of all - initially the Umayyad were there because their help was requested - so initially they were invited! Second of all - when someone is invited into your home - and they see innocent and brainwashed people worshiping a man (Jesus as God) and other worse stuff and wrong concepts - then sometimes it becomes imperative to guide them and help them open their eyes - so that they stop worshipping a man. That is the right thing to do! How Tariq, Musa and Rahman decided to help was their personal matter. If they did it in an improper way then they will answer to God.
But the coin has two sides and you could look from a different point of view!
I cannot go back in time and I am not expert in all of the history of the world either. But I can tell you that - in a war - unexpectable things happen and sometimes you go with the flow because you are caught up in the moment and you are doing what seems right to you at that moment.
Sometimes simplest reason or a misinformation can make a leader continue on his path. Every detailed reasoning do not make it to the history books even though the reason could be significant!
God in Quran did not tell believers to kill and expand!

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. It is spreading in Europe. Many old abandoned Churches are bought up by Muslim communities and turned into Mosques. Christians are just not going to their churches. So, the biggest threat to Europe was not the invasion of 732 (as you call it). The biggest threat was and still is - the misconceptions that sneaked into the Bibles that derailed the basic concept that was provided to Moses and Jesus - that God is not a Man! God is not in three parts and sins are not washed away by innocent human sacrifice!
So, Islam is spreading in Europe without bloodshed and the way it was ordained. If Tariq, Musa or Rahman from the Umayyad era - did it wrong then blame them BUT do not blame the Quran.
After Muhammad and especially after his immediate followers were all passed away - the future leaders or commanders of any nation or any army don't exclusively represent Islam in a way you may think they do. Only Quran represents Islam in the true sense! No new prophets and no new scripture is coming after Quran. So, if any invasion is not justified by the teaching of the Quran then don't say Muslim soldiers did this - so that must be Islamic.
Remember, if someone's thoughts and deeds don't align with the proper teachings of the Quran then God will deal with them himself. No need to blame Quran or Islam for their action. Blame that self-proclaimed Muslim! But check the real history before doing so!

You deflected and ignored his question about 65:4.

[Quran 8:22] "Indeed, the worst creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason".
Clear-cut verse 4:6 mentions marriageable age. Only a dumb person won't understand what it meant.

 

[BrightShadow]

until they reach a marriageable age.

See the words - until they reach "marriageable age"? Think about it for a while.

If you cannot add 2+2 and realize that marriageable age is mentioned here in conjunction to property transfer then believe what you want.

[Quran 8:22] "Indeed, the worst creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason".

Quran says to use reason - so better learn to use reason and tell your Muslim friend to use reason as well!

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

See the words - until they reach "marriageable age"? Think about it for a while.

If you cannot add 2+2 and realize that marriageable age is mentioned here in conjunction to property transfer then believe what you want.

[Quran 8:22] "Indeed, the worst creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason".

Quran says to use reason - so better learn to use reason and tell your Muslim friend to use reason as well!

No it says “until they reach a marriageable age. THEN if YOU FEEL they are capable of sound judgment…”

So if they reach a marriageable age (no specific age is provided btw, so we still don’t know what this age is by this verse alone, which is why the scholars also rely on the Sunnah) “then if you feel they are capable” implies you may not feel they are capable even at this ambiguous “marriageable age”

Then when we go to the tafsir by ibn Kathir he explains that the verse is in reference to the “unwise” the unwise can be the young, mentally ill, people with learning disabilities, people who are weak in religion and females - these are the examples he gives of the type of people who are unwise and that you should be cautious of in general -now when it comes to the marriageable age you need to look into what is considered a marriageable age according to the scholars. Which is why I gave you the Quranic verse on the Iddah because ibn Kathir explains the iddah also applies to “women” who have not started to menstruate because they are too young. I personally started my period 3 months before I was 15 years old but the average age is 12 to start menstruating, so we are looking at girls who are under the age of 15 and more so, under the age of 12 being married off.

 

[stevecanuck]

... when someone is invited into your home - and they see innocent and brainwashed people worshiping a man (Jesus as God) and other worse stuff and wrong concepts - then sometimes it becomes imperative to guide them and help them open their eyes - so that they stop worshipping a man. That is the right thing to do!

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen.

Devoutly observant Muslims feel it is their duty to make you stop practicing your religion. In fact, by doing so they are merely following Allah's command in verse 9:29, which explicitly tells them to do this.

The above is an admission that Islam is a religion of enforced hegemony.

 

[stevecanuck]

See the words - until they reach "marriageable age"? Think about it for a while.

Verse 65:4 clearly states that a wife can be too young to menstruate. How's that for "marriageable age"?

 

[BrightShadow]

No it says “until they reach a marriageable age. THEN if YOU FEEL they are capable of sound judgment…”

So if they reach a marriageable age (no specific age is provided btw, so we still don’t know what this age is by this verse alone, which is why the scholars also rely on the Sunnah) “then if you feel they are capable” implies you may not feel they are capable even at this ambiguous “marriageable age”

Then when we go to the tafsir by ibn Kathir he explains that the verse is in reference to the “unwise” the unwise can be the young, mentally ill, people with learning disabilities, people who are weak in religion and females - these are the examples he gives of the type of people who are unwise and that you should be cautious of in general -now when it comes to the marriageable age you need to look into what is considered a marriageable age according to the scholars. Which is why I gave you the Quranic verse on the Iddah because ibn Kathir explains the iddah also applies to “women” who have not started to menstruate because they are too young. I personally started my period 3 months before I was 15 years old but the average age is 12 to start menstruating, so we are looking at girls who are under the age of 15 and more so, under the age of 12 being married off.

It is clearly mentioned - to transfer property - they must reach "marriageable age"! Pay special attention to the word "marriageable". Why the word "marriageable used in this context? Why not just a mature age?

After they reach marriageable age - if you feel they are still not ready then wait more and don't waste their money ...
Now - do your research and find out what age property ownership were allowed back then..
This is not rocket science!
No kid of 6 or 9 years old ever owned property even back then.
So, this verse is clearly against child marriage. it is crystal clear. If you don't see that then it is your problem.
You could believe whatever you want.

 

[BrightShadow]

Devoutly observant Muslims feel it is their duty to make you stop practicing your religion.

Is there a limit to how low you can go?
No one making anyone stop practicing their religion.
Truth is shown. That is all!

 

[BrightShadow]

Verse 65:4 clearly states that a wife can be too young to menstruate. How's that for "marriageable age"?

No it doesn't! It is about divorce and it is about being considerate while divorcing and making sure the woman is not pregnant.
You have to wait 3 months to make sure and if already pregnant and she didn't know it then 3 months should confirm it and after the 3 months of missing period confirms it that she is indeed pregnant then you have to wait until baby is born before you could divorce.
This is not about marriageable age but only about waiting to confirm pregnancy!

 

[stevecanuck]

Is there a limit to how low you can go?
No one making anyone stop practicing their religion.
Truth is shown. That is all!

No matter how "low" I go, I will always be looking down at you.

Your words: "it becomes imperative to guide them and help them open their eyes"

And they do with sword in hand.

Islamopropagandists like you waste my time.

 

[stevecanuck]

No it doesn't! It is about divorce and it is about being considerate while divorcing and making sure the woman is not pregnant.
You have to wait 3 months to make sure and if already pregnant and she didn't know it then 3 months should confirm it and after the 3 months of missing period confirms it that she is indeed pregnant then you have to wait until baby is born before you could divorce.
This is not about marriageable age but only about waiting to confirm pregnancy!

Hmmmmm, who to believe? Known scholar Mohsin Kkan, or some rando Islamoapologist on the internet??????

I'll get back to you after I decide.

 

[BrightShadow]

No matter how "low" I go, I will always be looking down at you.

Your words: "it becomes imperative to guide them and help them open their eyes"

And they do with sword in hand.

Islamopropagandists like you waste my time.

Stop your smear campaign against Muslims and Islam.
You are wrong! Quran does not promote violence.
ChatGPT is here to put you in place.
Anyone can ask ChatGPT now.
Watch this video again at minute mark 3:01
She asks if Islam promotes violence. Listen to ChatGPT's response and learn!

After watching the video - stop repeating the same false nonsense.

Hmmmmm, who to believe? Known scholar Mohsin Kkan, or some rando Islamoapologist on the internet??????

Use your own brain and have some faith in your own ability to understand simple verses. You don't need to run to any so-called scholar for this simple verse.

You probably come from a Christian background. That is why - you are all about "priests and pastors". You can't even understand the simplest verses on your own.
There is no clergy in Islam. Muslims have a direct relationship with God without any intermediary. Muslims don't have to run around for approval by any human.

Read the simple verse and understand the meaning. Even translation is very simple.

The verse in question - is from a chapter called " the divorce". Does that ring a bell?

Read my post# 372 and try and understand the simple facts. Use your own brain to understand; you don't need any scholar for this!
The verse is about divorce and a waiting period to confirm if there is a baby on the way or not. You wait at least 3 months and if the wife is pregnant then wait until baby is born before you divorce if you must divorce - that is.
No need to complicate this simple advice.

 

[stevecanuck]

Read the simple verse and understand the meaning. Even translation is very simple.

The verse in question - is from a chapter called " the divorce". Does that ring a bell?

Read my post# 372 and try and understand the simple facts. Use your own brain to understand; you don't need any scholar for this!
The verse is about divorce and a waiting period to confirm if there is a baby on the way or not. You wait at least 3 months and if the wife is pregnant then wait until baby is born before you divorce if you must divorce - that is.
No need to complicate this simple advice.

All ad homs and strawmen (the majority of your 'rebuttals') ignored.

As for 65:4, let's parse the salientbit: Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses ....

Again, it's the bleedin' obvious that pre-pubescent girls are being spoken of here. I know you'll continue to bluster and deny, so knock yourself out. I'm done with this topic.

 

[stevecanuck]

You are wrong! Quran does not promote violence.

You know I can provide dozens of verses to disprove that lie. I've done it in other threads.

Why do you tell such easily disprovable lies? Do you hope people will just drink the koolaid without investigating for themselves. Verse 9:29 alone exposes your dishonesty.

 

[paarsurrey]

Stop your smear campaign against Muslims and Islam.
You are wrong! Quran does not promote violence.
ChatGPT is here to put you in place.
Anyone can ask ChatGPT now.
Watch this video again at minute mark 3:01
She asks if Islam promotes violence. Listen to ChatGPT's response and learn!

After watching the video - stop repeating the same false nonsense.



Use your own brain and have some faith in your own ability to understand simple verses. You don't need to run to any so-called scholar for this simple verse.

You probably come from a Christian background. That is why - you are all about "priests and pastors". You can't even understand the simplest verses on your own.
There is no clergy in Islam. Muslims have a direct relationship with God without any intermediary. Muslims don't have to run around for approval by any human.

Read the simple verse and understand the meaning. Even translation is very simple.

The verse in question - is from a chapter called " the divorce". Does that ring a bell?

Read my post# 372 and try and understand the simple facts. Use your own brain to understand; you don't need any scholar for this!
The verse is about divorce and a waiting period to confirm if there is a baby on the way or not. You wait at least 3 months and if the wife is pregnant then wait until baby is born before you divorce if you must divorce - that is.
No need to complicate this simple advice.

Thanks to share chat GPT YouTube video.

Regards

 

[BrightShadow]

As for 65:4, let's parse the salientbit: Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses ....

The message is getting lost in translation for you and due to fact that you are not reading in context.
Read verse 65:1 and then read 65:4
In your quoted highlighted portion - It means for those who didn't have the course YET due to the fact it is the wrong time of the month or due to the fact that she missed it and therefor she could be pregnant!
It is not about little girls like you are imagining!

Again, it's the bleedin' obvious that pre-pubescent girls are being spoken of here.

No! It is not!
You want this verse about child marriage but it is not! It is about divorce and the "waiting period" is to see and make sure the wife is not pregnant.

Read in context.
Read the entire verses 65:1-6. All the six verses are "waiting period" about "Divorce".

Read verse 65:1 and then read verse 65:4.
Verse 65:1 tells husbands to not kick wife out hastily on the same night he decides to divorce. It tells husband to accurately count waiting period.
Verse 65:4 describes the "waiting period" and reason for waiting period (that she could be pregnant).

You cannot randomly divorce and send the wife packing!
It about being compassionate and caring and confirming that the wife is not pregnant.

Before divorcing you have to make sure she is not pregnant.

When it says - if she didn't have period - IT MEANS if she didn't have period on that month YET! In other words either it is the wrong time of the month for her or she missed her cycle due to the fact that she could be pregnant.

This verse is NOT about little girl who didn't get her period yet. It is a common misconception by people like you. Islam is against child marriage.
They didn't have easy pregnancy tests then. So, God is telling the husband to wait and be sure that the wife he is about to divorce is not pregnant.
Let me break down more for you to understand.....

For example - if the husband declares he wants divorce on 3rd week of the month and the wife "period" is due a week later then the husband has to patiently wait until the wife declares she is NOT pregnant by him. Once certain then the husband can initiate divorce.
If she is pregnant - then he has to wait until the baby is born.
Read all six verses in one shot - you may understand the context.

Throw it out of your head that the verse is talking about child marriage. It is not!

 

[BrightShadow]

You know I can provide dozens of verses to disprove that lie. I've done it in other threads.

Why do you tell such easily disprovable lies? Do you hope people will just drink the koolaid without investigating for themselves. Verse 9:29 alone exposes your dishonesty.

Are you refusing to watch that ChatGPT video? Watch minute mark 3:01
Ask ChatGPT yourself if you like.
You won't go very far lying about Islam these days. Even ChatGPT is here now!