Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[David1967]

The thing is, I know. But it is not working for some reason.

 

[David1967]

It's a colloquialism - not meant to be interpreted that FearGod is Shad's literal flesh & blood offspring. In this context 'son' is used in the same way as 'mate', 'pal', 'buddy', 'chum', or 'friend'. I'm not entirely sure why it's used in this way but that is the context.

No wonder people say English is a hard language.

I agree. my wife is not from my country so I spend a lot of time explaining myself.

 

[David1967]

If she beat you ?

She cant. I am much faster runner than she is.

 

[David1967]

If a Muslim woman slept with another man then it'll be divorced immediately, it isn't like in the west that some men may accept and forgive
their wives if slept with other men, For Aisha it was just rumors, they have already accused Virgin Mary of having sex with a Roman soldier.

Good point.

 

[David1967]

The funny thing is the other way around is not part of this law

Here in the USA domestic violence laws apply to both husband and wife which I think is good. But you will see confused looks on some womens faces when they get arrested for assaulting their husband. Followed by the comment "but I'm a woman". Seriously though lets keep our hands to ourselves and just not hit each other.

 

[paarsurrey]

Irrelevant as the context and modification of the word based on personal interaction show it is about striking someone. Modification supposed by your own sources. Modification support by Lane's Lexicon. You are ignoring the specific verse and meaning in favor a different verse with a more positive definition. Remember how you mention context all the time? Well you are doing it wrong. Follow your own advice.

I did not give any translation of the word or the context of the verse in which it has been used. I was just viewing the arguments given by friends Shad and FearGod. I gave all the verses from Quran where the word has been used and Shad chose from them the ones they suited him and ignored the verses that had a leaning towards the point of view of FearGod. Right?

Now I give some verses in which the Arabic root word d-r-b has been used but ignored by Shad:
Verb (form I) - to strike, to set forth
(2:26:6) yaḍriba set forth إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَسْتَحْيِي أَنْ يَضْرِبَ مَثَلًا مَا بَعُوضَةً فَمَا فَوْقَهَا
(2:60:6) iḍ'rib Strike وَإِذِ اسْتَسْقَىٰ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ فَقُلْنَا اضْرِبْ بِعَصَاكَ الْحَجَرَ
(2:61:37) waḍuribat And were struck وَضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الذِّلَّةُ وَالْمَسْكَنَةُ وَبَاءُوا بِغَضَبٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ
(2:73:2) iḍ'ribūhu Strike him فَقُلْنَا اضْرِبُوهُ بِبَعْضِهَا كَذَٰلِكَ يُحْيِي اللَّهُ الْمَوْتَىٰ
(3:112:1) ḍuribat Struck ضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الذِّلَّةُ أَيْنَ مَا ثُقِفُوا
(3:112:18) waḍuribat and struck وَبَاءُوا بِغَضَبٍ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَضُرِبَتْ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَسْكَنَةُ
(3:156:11) ḍarabū they traveled إِذَا ضَرَبُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ كَانُوا غُزًّى لَوْ كَانُوا عِنْدَنَا مَا مَاتُوا وَمَا قُتِلُوا

(4:101:2) ḍarabtum you travel وَإِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَنْ تَقْصُرُوا مِنَ الصَّلَاةِ
(5:106:22) ḍarabtum (are) travel(ing) إِنْ أَنْتُمْ ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَأَصَابَتْكُمْ مُصِيبَةُ الْمَوْتِ
(7:160:13) iḍ'rib Strike وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ إِذِ اسْتَسْقَاهُ قَوْمُهُ أَنِ اضْرِبْ بِعَصَاكَ الْحَجَرَ

(13:17:24) yaḍribu sets forth كَذَٰلِكَ يَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْحَقَّ وَالْبَاطِلَ
(13:17:40) yaḍribu Allah sets forth كَذَٰلِكَ يَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ
(14:24:4) ḍaraba Allah sets forth أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا كَلِمَةً طَيِّبَةً كَشَجَرَةٍ طَيِّبَةٍ
(14:25:7) wayaḍribu And Allah sets forth وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ
(14:45:12) waḍarabnāand We put forth وَتَبَيَّنَ لَكُمْ كَيْفَ فَعَلْنَا بِهِمْ وَضَرَبْنَا لَكُمُ الْأَمْثَالَ
(16:74:2) taḍribū put forth فَلَا تَضْرِبُوا لِلَّهِ الْأَمْثَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
(16:75:1) ḍaraba Allah sets forth ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا عَبْدًا مَمْلُوكًا لَا يَقْدِرُ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ
(16:76:1) waḍaraba And Allah sets forth وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا رَجُلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا أَبْكَمُ لَا يَقْدِرُ عَلَىٰ شَيْءٍ
(16:112:1) waḍaraba And Allah sets forth وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا قَرْيَةً كَانَتْ آمِنَةً مُطْمَئِنَّةً يَأْتِيهَا رِزْقُهَا رَغَدًا
(17:48:3) ḍarabū they put forth انْظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا لَكَ الْأَمْثَالَ فَضَلُّوا فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ سَبِيلًا
(18:11:1) faḍarabnā So We cast فَضَرَبْنَا عَلَىٰ آذَانِهِمْ فِي الْكَهْفِ سِنِينَ عَدَدًا
(18:32:1) wa-iḍ'rib And set forth وَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ مَثَلًا رَجُلَيْنِ جَعَلْنَا لِأَحَدِهِمَا جَنَّتَيْنِ مِنْ أَعْنَابٍ
(18:45:1) wa-iḍ'rib And present وَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ مَثَلَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا كَمَاءٍ أَنْزَلْنَاهُ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ
(continued in the next post)

 

[paarsurrey]

(Continued from the previous post)
(20:77:8) fa-iḍ'rib and strike أَنْ أَسْرِ بِعِبَادِي فَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ طَرِيقًا فِي الْبَحْرِ يَبَسًا
(22:73:3) ḍuriba Is set forth يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ ضُرِبَ مَثَلٌ فَاسْتَمِعُوا لَهُ
(24:31:15) walyaḍrib'na And let them draw وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَىٰ جُيُوبِهِنَّ
(24:31:64) yaḍrib'na let them stamp وَلَا يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا يُخْفِينَ مِنْ زِينَتِهِنَّ
(24:35:41) wayaḍribu And Allah sets forth وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
(25:9:3) ḍarabū they set forth انْظُرْ كَيْفَ ضَرَبُوا لَكَ الْأَمْثَالَ فَضَلُّوا فَلَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ سَبِيلًا
(25:39:2) ḍarabnā We have set forth وَكُلًّا ضَرَبْنَا لَهُ الْأَمْثَالَ وَكُلًّا تَبَّرْنَا تَتْبِيرًا
(26:63:5) iḍ'rib Strike فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنِ اضْرِبْ بِعَصَاكَ الْبَحْرَ
(29:43:3) naḍribuhā We set forth وَتِلْكَ الْأَمْثَالُ نَضْرِبُهَا لِلنَّاسِ وَمَا يَعْقِلُهَا إِلَّا الْعَالِمُونَ
(30:28:1) ḍaraba He sets forth ضَرَبَ لَكُمْ مَثَلًا مِنْ أَنْفُسِكُمْ
(30:58:2) ḍarabnā We (have) set forth وَلَقَدْ ضَرَبْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِنْ كُلِّ مَثَلٍ
(36:13:1) wa-iḍ'rib And set forth وَاضْرِبْ لَهُمْ مَثَلًا أَصْحَابَ الْقَرْيَةِ إِذْ جَاءَهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ
(36:78:1) waḍaraba And he sets forth وَضَرَبَ لَنَا مَثَلًا وَنَسِيَ خَلْقَهُ قَالَ مَنْ يُحْيِي الْعِظَامَ وَهِيَ رَمِيمٌ

(39:27:2) ḍarabnā We have set forth وَلَقَدْ ضَرَبْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِنْ كُلِّ مَثَلٍ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ
(39:29:1) ḍaraba Allah sets forth ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا رَجُلًا فِيهِ شُرَكَاءُ مُتَشَاكِسُونَ
(43:5:1) afanaḍribuThen should We take away أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنْكُمُ الذِّكْرَ صَفْحًا أَنْ كُنْتُمْ قَوْمًا مُسْرِفِينَ
(43:17:5) ḍaraba he sets up وَإِذَا بُشِّرَ أَحَدُهُمْ بِمَا ضَرَبَ لِلرَّحْمَٰنِ مَثَلًا ظَلَّ وَجْهُهُ مُسْوَدًّا
(43:57:2) ḍuriba is presented وَلَمَّا ضُرِبَ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ مَثَلًا إِذَا قَوْمُكَ مِنْهُ يَصِدُّونَ
(43:58:7) ḍarabūhu they present it وَقَالُوا أَآلِهَتُنَا خَيْرٌ أَمْ هُوَ مَا ضَرَبُوهُ لَكَ إِلَّا جَدَلًا
(47:3:15) yaḍribu Allah presents كَذَٰلِكَ يَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ لِلنَّاسِ أَمْثَالَهُمْ

(57:13:16) faḍuriba Then will be put up فَضُرِبَ بَيْنَهُمْ بِسُورٍ لَهُ بَابٌ بَاطِنُهُ فِيهِ الرَّحْمَةُ
(59:21:15) naḍribuhā We present them وَتِلْكَ الْأَمْثَالُ نَضْرِبُهَا لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ
(66:10:1) ḍaraba Presents ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ
(66:11:1) waḍaraba And presents وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْنَ
(73:20:37) yaḍribūna traveling وَآخَرُونَ يَضْرِبُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ يَبْتَغُونَ مِنْ فَضْلِ اللَّهِ
Noun
(2:273:9) ḍarban (to) move about لِلْفُقَرَاءِ الَّذِينَ أُحْصِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ لَا يَسْتَطِيعُونَ ضَرْبًا فِي الْأَرْضِ

Shad took the meaning relevant to his stance from 9 verses but ignored the meaning of 49 verses that were against his stance.
I therefore request him to look the verse he ignored, others could also help him in this regard.
Those who know little of Arabic, they could see the meaning given in English and check them from the reference provided on the extreme left from the Quran translation they like .
Regards

 

[David1967]

I think high heels should be required to register as weapon.

 

[DawudTalut]

Those Religions which thrived in the Middle East before Islam which are now oppressed:

- Christianity
- Zoroastrianism
- Judaism
- Various forms of Paganism

Last, Bahai is struggling to make a niche for itself because Islamic "justice" keeps sentencing them to death and oppressing them. They shut down their schools and other such places.

How many of these groups live in peace in Muslim lands?

How many Churches, Synagogues and other temples exist in, say, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan? Either not many or none, and none are allowed to be built anew and the current ones are not allowed to be repaired.

Peace be on you.

The key is in the word “now” which you used in the very first sentence – VERSUS - What was “Back Then” at the time of start of Islam and early history?


===Before the advent of Islam, canals of honey and milk were not flowing in the world. As mentioned :

“In the fifth and sixth centuries, the civilized world stood on the verge of chaos. The old emotional cultures that had made civilization possible, since they had given to man a sense of unity and of reverence for their rulers, had broken down and nothing had been found adequate to take their place.... It seemed then that the great civilization which had taken four thousand years to construct was on the verge of disintegration, and that mankind was likely to return to that condition of barbarism where every tribe and sect was against the next, and law and order were unknown.... The new sanctions created by Christianity were creating divisions and destruction instead of unity and order. Civilization like a gigantic tree whose foliage had over-reached the world stood tottering, rotted to the core..”

(J. H. Denison,Emotions as the Basis of Civilization, pp. 265-9)

Taken from: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/muhammad_seal_of_the_prophets/introduction.html


===Islam asked:

Ch3, v65

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=413&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2


===Examples from Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) of Islam and history:

There are many examples which illustrate tolerance and equality in Islamic history.

i-As a practical example, an African from Ethiopia by the name of Bilal was chosen by the Holy Prophetsaw to deliver the call for prayer (Adhan) in his own mosque. This was a high honour which could not be imagined before the Prophetsaw's pronouncements.

ii-Once a Christian delegation was allowed to hold their worship and service in the Prophetsaw's mosque.

iii-One of the examples worth noting comes from Spain. After arriving on the soil of Spain, the Muslims published an edict assuring full liberty to all subjects of all races and backgrounds. All were placed on an equal footing. It is recorded in history that the Jews, for example, profited most from the Muslim rule and administration. Many centuries later when Spain was reconquered by Ferdinand and Issabellah, innumerable Jews preferred to go to Islamic lands rather than stay in Christian Spain.


=== What is happening “now” is not because of Islam. It is because of leaving the reality of Islam.

=== Please broaden the matter of persecution to many other dimensions.

=== Churches, Synagogues are not safe BUT what was taught:

[22:39]Surely, Allah defends those who believe. Surely, Allah loves not any one who is perfidiousorungrateful.

[22:40]Permissionto fightis given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged — and Allah indeed has power to help them —

[22:41]Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah’ — And if Allah did not repel some men by means of others, there would surely have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft commemorated. And Allah will surely help one who helps Him. Allah is indeed Powerful, Mighty —

Second, jizyah ..........Here is the Qur'anic ayah about jizyah:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [Quran 9:29]

We have to pay a tax (jizyah) and be in "subjection" or else the Muslims will KILL us.......

Please note:

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=922&region=E1&CR=EN,E2&CR=EN,E2
and next page.
and
Please read the early pages of this chapter to know better.

 

[Yerda]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/talking-about-islamism-with-lawrence-odonnell1

The video here isn't too long. The gist is that Islam isn't a religion of peace, and Islam isn't a religion of violence.

If it hasn't been presented in this thread already, there is a book co-written by Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz on the subject raised in the OP.

 

[Demonslayer]

I think high heels should be required to register as weapon

If we outlaw high-heels, only outlaws will have high-heels!

 

[paarsurrey]

Where is the details of beating ? Is it slapping, boxing, pulling hair, biting, kicking..etc
For how long man should beat his wife, till she feels fainting or till she says i love you.
How many times he should beat her, once a day, twice a day.... ?
First he should talk with her then to leave her alone then he should come back to box her face, the last one makes sense.

I checked with Google:
slap
slap/
verb
gerund or present participle: slapping

1. hit (someone or something) with the palm of one's hand or a flat object.
   "my sister slapped my face"
   synonyms: hit, strike, smack, clout, cuff, thump, punch, spank;
   informal whack,thwack, wallop, bash, bop, slug, bust;
   archaic smite
   "he slapped her hard"
2. hit against or into something with the sound of a slap.
   • "water slapped against the boat"
   • informal
     reprimand someone forcefully.
   • https://www.google.ca/search?q=slap...rome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

What English word could be selected from the above that fits the context? Please
Regards

 

[mystic64]

Thank you for a somewhat reasonable answer.

That said, can you honestly say that Islam is a peaceful religion, given its well known history? It is completely disingenuous to say it is a "religion of peace". I do agree however that if one says that "Islam is a religion of peace" they are either ignorant, disingenuous or outright lying. It would be quite truthful to say that "Islam if a religion of complete submission."

Submission to whom ?

 

[YmirGF]

Submission to whom ?

If you buy into the theology, you submit to Allah. If you do not buy into the theology you submit to Muslim rule and being a 2nd class citizen.

 

[paarsurrey]

It's a colloquialism - not meant to be interpreted that FearGod is Shad's literal flesh & blood offspring. In this context 'son' is used in the same way as 'mate', 'pal', 'buddy', 'chum', or 'friend'. I'm not entirely sure why it's used in this way but that is the context.
No wonder people say English is a hard language.

But Shad says FearGod is not his friend?
Regards

 

[raph]

And if you don't pay jizyah when you're capable Muslims are permitted to attack you & terrify you until start paying

By your logic, every tax is mafia protection money because any state will fight and terrify you until you pay your taxes.

Mafia protection money is not just, because you get nothing for it really.

Any tax is just, because you get something for it (like better schools)

Jizya is just, because you get something for it. You can live in a muslim state and enjoying military protection from enemies, without joining the military. So actually you are paying the military to protect you. You get something of real value for your money therefore it is just. It is "protection money", but the good kind. Not the mafia kind of protection money.

 

[YmirGF]

Jizya is just, because you get something for it. You can live in a muslim state and enjoying military protection from enemies, without joining the military. So actually you are paying the military to protect you. You get something of real value for your money therefore it is just. It is "protection money", but the good kind. Not the mafia kind of protection money.

On the surface this sounds fine, but what is overlooked is that the so-called enemies of Islam are likely friends who would seek to free you from your bondage. One is essentially paying for their own captivity.

 

[David1967]

By your logic, every tax is mafia protection money because any state will fight and terrify you until you pay your taxes.

Mafia protection money is not just, because you get nothing for it really.

Any tax is just, because you get something for it (like better schools)

Jizya is just, because you get something for it. You can live in a muslim state and enjoying military protection from enemies, without joining the military. So actually you are paying the military to protect you. You get something of real value for your money therefore it is just. It is "protection money", but the good kind. Not the mafia kind of protection money.

It makes sense when you put it that way.

 

[YmirGF]

It makes sense when you put it that way.

It only makes sense on a very superficial level.

Think about it for just a second. You are a captive of a Muslim army. You are paying for "protection" by that army against enemies of that army. Those enemies are quite likely your friends. Get it?

 

[David1967]

It only makes sense on a very superficial level.

Think about it for just a second. You are a captive of a Muslim army. You are paying for "protection" by that army against enemies of that army. Those enemies are quite likely your friends. Get it?

Keep in mind, I have very limited knowledge of this. I was just saying that the way raph explained it ,it made more sense. If I moved to a Muslim country to live there long term and was required to pay a tax in exchange for not serving in the military I could accept that. If I were paying a tax simply for not being a Muslim I would think that pretty ridiculous. So which is it? I don't know. But at the same time the old saying "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" applies here. If I knew this was their custom and did not agree with it I just wouldn't move there. Now at the same time, the non-Muslims from that area is another thing altogether.