Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[FearGod]

Respect is earned and lost as is friendship. FG was never a friend thus I do not need to treat him as one. FG lost my respect along time ago.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Critisism would be a fair judgement of what Islam actually is.
Bashing would be judging something, that is not even true about Islam.

Example
Criticism 1: it is bad that taxes and military service is based on religion in Islam.
Bashing 1: Islam mafia takes protection money from jews who are regarded as second class citizens.

How is pointing out that Islamic rules permit (even encourage) acts similar to criminal organisations which have done the same thing in regards to using intimidation as a method of gathering money 'bashing' but not criticism?

Criticism 2: It is not good to hit women even if they break the law and you tried everything else.
Bashing 2: Omg Islam Macho religion allows hitting women.

In what way is pointing out that Islamic scripture permits a man to beat his woman 'bashing' but not criticism?

 

[icehorse]

Islam's reformation has already been made with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, if one listens and lends one's ear to him.
Regards

Well the evidence is that Islam needs another.

 

[paarsurrey]

I'm curious about something FearGod. Do you believe everything must literally be followed in Islam, or can you also allow some self interpretation to take place? In Christianity, no one is required to take every passage, literally. There is fundamental doctrine that one must believe literally, but there are a great many other areas that don't require a Christian to view the Bible as 100% literal.

I agree with you that one must always be focused on the core teachings; and there is always room in other things. Islam advises emphatically to do thing according to the occasion and appropriate to the time .
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Sharia law should be tolerant and merciful, For example while the punishment for the thief is harsh but still forgiveness
should be valid, one of the rulers cancelled the law of cutting off the hands of the thieves because they were in need
to steal in order to survive, so yes i agree it can be modified if a merciful options exists.

Agreed.
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I know that you like to bash Islam and will keep bashing. Bashers gonna bash. Have fun.

1.
Protection money is the money, you pay the mafia so that said mafia wont hurt you.

Jizya is a tax in exchange for the privilige of non muslims for not being forced into military.

And if you don't pay jizyah when you're capable Muslims are permitted to attack you & terrify you until you submit and start paying again.

2. You leave out much information that every muslim knows and considers. This is not criticism but bashing. Criticism would require a fair judgement after you actually listen to the other side of the story.

Men have to be just (justice) leaders of the family. When a woman rebells against an unjust decision from her man, the law is not applicable. It is only applicable if she does something really bad.
And even then, there are two much more humane punishments in the same verse that you completely ignore. The light hitting is the last and most severe of punishements. In a society where being hit was a normal punishement, it is nothing strange.

This law is not about making women do everything you want. The law is about being the leader of a family and making sure that the family functions. Every leader has to punish bad behavior. Without punishement the world would not work.

Actually it's applicable on the suspicion of disloyalty. If a man needs to beat his wife to make her love him and only him then he's no man, and does not deserve the woman's love.

To quote a great British actor in character: "Flogging teaches a man only one lesson, sir: how to turn his back."

 

[Deidre]

Sharia law should be tolerant and merciful, For example while the punishment for the thief is harsh but still forgiveness
should be valid, one of the rulers cancelled the law of cutting off the hands of the thieves because they were in need
to steal in order to survive, so yes i agree it can be modified if a merciful options exists.

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining further. Coming from a Christian background, perhaps it was hard for me to wrap my mind around Sharia Law, for Jesus taught a very different message when it came to wrong doings, crimes, etc. So, when I started 'teaching myself' Islam, it (Sharia Law) definitely was something that probably would never really make sense to me. Part of that too is because I've grown up in a culture (the US) that governs by secular laws. And there isn't an 'eye for an eye' mentality, really. You know?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Islam contains a boatload of regressive ideas. Go read the UN Declaration on Human Rights. Then ask yourself why on earth Muslim leaders from around the world rejected this seemingly peaceful and benign document.

Not only reject, but have created their own document as a substitute.

 

[paarsurrey]

All you have done is just confirm my view and refuted FG's. Do read the verses you have listed especially the one in question which is near the top. You used the exact same source I did thus agree with my view completely. Thanks.

But you ignored the verses that had other meanings but did not suit you. Right?
Regards

 

[Deidre]

I agree with you that one must always be focused on the core teachings; and there is always room in other things. Islam advises emphatically to do thing according to the occasion and appropriate to the time .
Regards

Okay, thanks for this...interesting.

 

[Shad]

But you ignored the verses that had other meanings but did not suit you. Right?
Regards

Irrelevant as the context and modification of the word based on personal interaction show it is about striking someone. Modification supposed by your own sources. Modification support by Lane's Lexicon. You are ignoring the specific verse and meaning in favor a different verse with a more positive definition. Remember how you mention context all the time? Well you are doing it wrong. Follow your own advice.

 

[FearGod]

The English word strike seems to be like the Arabic root word D-r-b. Is there something to it?
strike
Origin
View attachment 11272
Old English strīcan ‘go, flow’ and ‘rub lightly’; related to German streichen ‘to stroke,’ also to stroke. The sense ‘deliver a blow’ dates from Middle English.

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=strike etymology

strike (v.)
Old English strican (past tense strac, past participle stricen) "pass lightly over, stroke, smooth, rub," also "go, move, proceed," from Proto-Germanic *strikan- (cognates: Old Norse strykva"to stroke," Old Frisian strika, Middle Dutch streken, Dutch strijken "to smooth, stroke, rub," Old High German strihhan, German streichen), from PIE root *streig- "to stroke, rub, press" (see strigil). Related to streak and stroke, and perhaps influenced in sense development by cognate Old Norse striuka.

Sense of "to deal a blow" developed by early 14c.; meaning "to collide" is from mid-14c.; that of "to hit with a missile" is from late 14c. Meaning "to cancel or expunge" (as with the stroke of a pen) is attested from late 14c. A Middle English sense is preserved in strike for "go toward." Sense of "come upon, find" is from 1835 (especially in mining, well-digging, etc., hence strike it rich, 1854). Baseball sense is from 1853. To strike a balance is from the sense "balance accounts" (1530s).

Meaning "refuse to work to force an employer to meet demands" is from 1768, perhaps from notion of striking or "downing" one's tools, or from sailors' practice of striking (lowering) a ship's sails as a symbol of refusal to go to sea (1768), which preserves the verb's original sense of "make level, smooth."
strike (n.)
1580s, "act of striking," from strike (v.). Meaning "concentrated cessation of work by a body of employees" is from 1810. Baseball sense is first recorded 1841, originally meaning any contact with the ball; modern sense developed by 1890s, apparently from foul strike, which counted against the batter, and as hit came to be used for "contact with the ball" this word was left for "a swing and a miss" that counts against the batter; figurative sense of have two strikes against (of a possible three) is from 1938. Bowling sense attested from 1859. Meaning "sudden military attack" is attested from 1942.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=strike

Regards

I asked myself the same question, how both words English and Arabic got the same words for beating and strike, strike can means beating
and also to leave something away as protesting which is the same in Arabic, one word for both got the same meanings, but when did they agree to have such
meanings for this word, what is the relation between beating and leaving something away.

 

[FearGod]

This is an evidence that Muslims shouldn't beat women, actually it's shameful to use force against women,
the last sermon of the prophet shortly before his death which was witnessed and recorded by huge crowd
proves that men should be kind with women.

 

[Deidre]

This is an evidence that Muslims shouldn't beat women, actually it's shameful to use force against women,
the last sermon of the prophet shortly before his death which was witnessed and recorded by huge crowd
proves that men should be kind with women.

In truth though, none of us need a religion to tell us this. Let's hope. That's the danger with religion, all religion...is that its adherents sometimes become too reliant on it, and it's important to use logic and emotional intelligence to figure some things on our own. God did provide us with intellect.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

This is an evidence that Muslims shouldn't beat women, actually it's shameful to use force against women,
the last sermon of the prophet shortly before his death which was witnessed and recorded by huge crowd
proves that men should be kind with women.

Which takes precedence in Islamic jurisprudence? The Qu'ran verses saying it's acceptable to beat your woman, or this?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Honestly if you added all the Muslim terrorists in the world, they'd make less than 1% of Islam.

Wrong line of inquiry. The right one is "if you added up all the terrorists in the world, how many would be Muslim?" or something of the same. Put differently, it is absolutely true that given an individual is a Muslim, the chances that they are a terrorist are slim to none. However, given that an individual is a terrorist, the chances that they are muslim are extremely high.

You have any idea how many Christian terrorists there are or atheist or Jewish or even Sikh terrorists?

Yes. I also know that most Christian, Jewish, etc., terrorists are terrorists for ideological reasons that are not based upon their religious identification.

Yeah they don't get talked about much

There are many national and international organizations that publish information on this (ICRS, Eurostat, WHO, World Development Reports, etc.), and the literature on terrorism and the relevance of Islam here and in other issues (such as democratic values, see e.g., here) are legion.

 

[FearGod]

Which takes precedence in Islamic jurisprudence? The Qu'ran verses saying it's acceptable to beat your woman, or this?

Where is the details of beating ? Is it slapping, boxing, pulling hair, biting, kicking..etc
For how long man should beat his wife, till she feels fainting or till she says i love you.
How many times he should beat her, once a day, twice a day.... ?
First he should talk with her then to leave her alone then he should come back to box her face, the last one makes sense.

 

[David1967]

Regardless how it is interpreted the passage does not paint women in a very favorable light.

I agree on this point. In my country (thank God) if you beat your wife you go to jail.

 

[David1967]

This is an evidence that Muslims shouldn't beat women, actually it's shameful to use force against women,
the last sermon of the prophet shortly before his death which was witnessed and recorded by huge crowd
proves that men should be kind with women.

I'm glad you agree that we should not beat women. Only a coward and a low life would strike a woman.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Where is the details of beating ? Is it slapping, boxing, pulling hair, biting, kicking..etc
For how long man should beat his wife, till she feels fainting or till she says i love you.
How many times he should beat her, once a day, twice a day.... ?
First he should talk with her then to leave her alone then he should come back to box her face, the last one makes sense.

Stop trying to blur the issue. Rival has already shown you the verse which permits violence against a woman - the verse is not designed to outline every possible infraction that may take place. However, the spirit of the scripture is clear: husbands have the authority to use violence against a woman to quell any disloyal thoughts - regardless of whether they exist or not.