Let's Stop Pretending That Islam is a Religion of Peace

[Shad]

Do you know really what was going on before 1400 years ago, tell us what did you see, time machine, i thought it was a movie.

Irrelevant tripe. Your same argument can be used against your views. Beside history shows there is a major lack of female rulers for centuries. A female ruler was rare. How many female Caliphs were there? How many governors? How many clerics? How many politicians? How many generals? The lack of women in power in comparison to men shows the male domination of society for centuries. Pick up a history book and educate yourself

Nice try but you failed. Try again son.

 

[Shad]

Isn't women treated like candies somewhere in the west, taste and then throw away and find a new look and a different taste.

Nope.

 

[icehorse]

Okay, so what do you hope to happen for the future of Islam? I'm not a follower of Islam, for I had issues with different aspects of it.

I'm still trying to gather the point of the thread. Is it mainly to vent for those who loathe Islam, or is there some other point of it?

To me the point of the thread is valid and important, and that is that it is disingenuous to say "Islam is a religion of Peace". The reason that this is important is that productive discussion has to start with a foundation of truth.

What I hope for is a substantial reformation of all of the Abrahamic religions, but Islam's reformation is the most urgent. (And in order to forestall common responses, no, I don't lay all the problems of the world on Islam.)

 

[Shad]

Now the bashers are claiming to know arabic and be expert on meanings of arabic words, just shows how ridiculous this debate has gotten.

It is lexicon made by those that know the language in it's classical form. It is a lexicon based on history and tradition of the text. It is your own co-religious stating what the word means. Heck even those that are not Muslims which translated the Quran use the word to mean hit. I used Islams own sources to show what it means and has for centuries. Only now that abuse is unacceptable do people panic and reinterpret their text so it doesn't look like the iron age text it is and how it reflected human views not any divine view. This is called an ad hoc rescue in which you change your interpretation in order to avoid argument which show your view is either incorrect, immoral, etc.

 

[FearGod]

Nope. I used the Quranic lexicon, your own sources, for my views.



Which is what my sources say.



It is called you go back and hit them son. You know how to walk correct? Do you know what escalation of solutions are correct? The reason you beat the wife is due to her rebellion against the husband which is spelled out in the opening of the verse you cited. Do you read what you type?

More so your explanation is redundant showing an error from your supposed God given text. Thanks for refuting your own texts claims about errors. Try again son.

You explained nothing but just kind of crap, the verse present the solution in 3 steps, first by talking with her, 2nd is to leave her bed and 3rd is to protest the same
way that some goes in a hunger strike, you know libido prevent solutions if you know women other than a sex object which we Muslims treat women as a human
being which is why we care that she wear a decent dress because she's precious and we do protect her from the dirty eyes of some filthy men.

 

[Sees]

You explained nothing but just kind of crap, the verse present the solution in 3 steps, first by talking with her, 2nd is to leave her bed and 3rd is to protest the same
way that some goes in a hunger strike, you know libido prevent solutions if you know women other than a sex object which we Muslims treat women as a human
being which is why we care that she wear a decent dress because she's precious and we do protect her from the dirty eyes of some filthy men.

Were you actually born and raised in Jordan and are you translating this for your self?

 

[Shad]

You explained nothing but just kind of crap, the verse present the solution in 3 steps, first by talking with her, 2nd is to leave her bed and 3rd is to protest the same
way that some goes in a hunger strike, you know libido prevent solutions if you know women other than a sex object which we Muslims treat women as a human
being which is why we care that she wear a decent dress because she's precious and we do protect her from the dirty eyes of some filthy men.

Nope I merely state exactly what the Quranic lexicon states. Not a single definition of the word nor similar words say protest. Your own sources agree with exactly what I have said and you have provides zero evidence to counter this. Anyone can look it up to confirm my posts. Anyone can look up the many trasnlation which say strike as in hit. Even to the point that commentors insert (light). With tthis in mind your (light) protest is incoherent.The rest of your post is tripe covering your rant about supposed treatment of women by the media as if everyone does this. I can do this too as well. The media more often than not portrays Muslims as terrorist thus you are a terrorist cause the media says so derp derp derp.

 

[Shad]

Were you actually born and raised in Jordan and are you translating this for your self?

Irrelevant as there are trained professions that provide translation agreeing with my view including Muslims as the majority. There are translation and tradition agreeing with my view. Not a single one says protest.

 

[paarsurrey]

Wait.... What? Are you saying there are so-called "spiritual" aspects to lopping off peoples limbs? Seriously?

I did not mention that hands of a thief are necessarily to be cut off. Did I ?
Regards

 

[FearGod]

One does not need to be fluent in Arabic to rebuff these types of arguments. One only need consult the majority of "scholars" and the majority of translations.

اَلرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُوۡنَ عَلَى النِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّٰهُ بَعۡضَهُمۡ عَلٰى بَعۡضٍ وَّبِمَاۤ اَنۡفَقُوۡا مِنۡ اَمۡوَالِهِمۡ ؕ فَالصّٰلِحٰتُ قٰنِتٰتٌ حٰفِظٰتٌ لِّلۡغَيۡبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّٰهُ ؕ وَالّٰتِىۡ تَخَافُوۡنَ نُشُوۡزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوۡهُنَّ وَاهۡجُرُوۡهُنَّ فِى الۡمَضَاجِعِ وَاضۡرِبُوۡهُنَّ ۚ فَاِنۡ اَطَعۡنَكُمۡ فَلَا تَبۡغُوۡا عَلَيۡهِنَّ سَبِيۡلًا ؕاِنَّ اللّٰهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيۡرًا‏

The word of question in red

اضراب is the noun which means strike as to protest, check here

 

[FearGod]

Were you actually born and raised in Jordan and are you translating this for your self?

Translating what ?

 

[Shad]

اَلرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُوۡنَ عَلَى النِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّٰهُ بَعۡضَهُمۡ عَلٰى بَعۡضٍ وَّبِمَاۤ اَنۡفَقُوۡا مِنۡ اَمۡوَالِهِمۡ ؕ فَالصّٰلِحٰتُ قٰنِتٰتٌ حٰفِظٰتٌ لِّلۡغَيۡبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّٰهُ ؕ وَالّٰتِىۡ تَخَافُوۡنَ نُشُوۡزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوۡهُنَّ وَاهۡجُرُوۡهُنَّ فِى الۡمَضَاجِعِ وَاضۡرِبُوۡهُنَّ ۚ فَاِنۡ اَطَعۡنَكُمۡ فَلَا تَبۡغُوۡا عَلَيۡهِنَّ سَبِيۡلًا ؕاِنَّ اللّٰهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيۡرًا‏

The word of question in red

اضراب is the noun which means strike as to protest, check here

Refuted by the lexicon. You are reinterpreting the word due to modern usage of the English meaning then inferring that the Arabic meaning 1400 years ago is the same. Never mind my sources below which confirm my views.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:34:29)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Drb#(7:160:13)
https://www.google.ca/search?q=اضرا...ei=ZXAtVojACdjqoASi15XoBA#q=translation+اضراب

 

[FearGod]

Refuted by the lexicon. You are reinterpreting the word due to modern usage and not the original. Try again son. The word is not even in the verse.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:34:29)
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Drb#(7:160:13)

Aha, it's a modern translation of the word, stupid try of you.

 

[Deidre]

Isn't women treated like candies somewhere in the west, taste and then throw away and find a new look and a different taste.

lol hmmmm!

 

[Shad]

Aha, it's a modern translation of the word, stupid try

Actually it isn't, a lexicon based on historical uses of the language, translations, commentary, etc. You have no idea what a lexicon is it seems nor do you even look at my source to see the word you are talking about is not the one I am. Simply put your argument is based on ignoring the word in question and replacing it. Which is irrelevant and dodging the issue.. You should also note some of these translation are centuries old. The only modern translation is the one you put forward as an ad hoc rescue.

 

[Sees]

Translating what ?

"first by talking with her, 2nd is to leave her bed and 3rd is to protest the same
way that some goes in a hunger strike"

Is that based on your own translation? First is poor and second and third aren't even accurate. I'm trying to figure out if it's a knowledge issue in a lot of your posts or intentional deception?

 

[paarsurrey]

اَلرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُوۡنَ عَلَى النِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّٰهُ بَعۡضَهُمۡ عَلٰى بَعۡضٍ وَّبِمَاۤ اَنۡفَقُوۡا مِنۡ اَمۡوَالِهِمۡ ؕ فَالصّٰلِحٰتُ قٰنِتٰتٌ حٰفِظٰتٌ لِّلۡغَيۡبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّٰهُ ؕ وَالّٰتِىۡ تَخَافُوۡنَ نُشُوۡزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوۡهُنَّ وَاهۡجُرُوۡهُنَّ فِى الۡمَضَاجِعِ وَاضۡرِبُوۡهُنَّ ۚ فَاِنۡ اَطَعۡنَكُمۡ فَلَا تَبۡغُوۡا عَلَيۡهِنَّ سَبِيۡلًا ؕاِنَّ اللّٰهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيۡرًا‏

The word of question in red

اضراب is the noun which means strike as to protest, check here

Please quote some lexicon in Arabic to English for understanding of the meaning of the word.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It is lexicon made by those that know the language in it's classical form. It is a lexicon based on history and tradition of the text. It is your own co-religious stating what the word means. Heck even those that are not Muslims which translated the Quran use the word to mean hit. I used Islams own sources to show what it means and has for centuries. Only now that abuse is unacceptable do people panic and reinterpret their text so it doesn't look like the iron age text it is and how it reflected human views not any divine view. This is called an ad hoc rescue in which you change your interpretation in order to avoid argument which show your view is either incorrect, immoral, etc.

Please don't be angry. Do you mean it is compulsory for every Muslim to beat his wife and only then he is to be called a true Muslim? I don't think that you mean that. Right.
Regards

 

[Shad]

Please don't be angry. Do you mean it is compulsory for every Muslim to beat his wife and only then he is to be called a Muslim? I don't think that you mean that. Right.
Regards

I am not angry at you or Muslims in general. I am frustrated by FG's avoidance of the verse and the word in question. Ignoring the sources from Islamic translation, lexicons, linguistic documentation, etc. Due to FG's religious ideology there is no ability to call it what it is since FG is emotional invested into the belief system. This is a failure of all religions as people will conform their religion to modern views, yet deny doing so, then claim their view is the only correct one while being correct since day 1. Sources and academia be damned.

I am showing a supposed text from God commanding an immoral act, physical abuse, which should no longer be acceptable by anyone nor even put forward by God. It reflects the culture of the era not any all knowing God. If mere humans can develop a better way to resolve issues with a spouse then this goes far into undermining the claims of your religion. Humans out thought God... I hope Muslims ignore this versus completely but this would require abandonment of literalism in the belief of dictation from God to Gab to Mo. It could be inspired by God but still written by a limited human thus contains errors and bad ideas.

 

[FearGod]

Please quote some lexicon in Arabic to English for understanding of the meaning of the word.
Regards

http://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/strike/

The word can be يضرب or اضرب or اضراب as verb and noun