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Let's talk about Hell

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I am with Beta on this one. All the ancient cultures, not just ancient Israel, believed in eternal destruction of the wicked. If I did believe in hell in any sense, that's what I'd go with. The ancient scriptures all say to follow your heart with all vigilance, and woe to you if your heart cries out against you before the judgment seat of Osiris. Because you will be cast to the monster Ammit, and be devoured, and cease to exist forever.
 

Danny Heim

Active Member
I will give you some relevant scriptures from which you can fit together true biblical facts which traditional christianity has failed to teach.
Gen.2v7, man became a living soul and therefore IS a soul.
Ezek.18v4,20, the soul that sins shall die , in other words man is mortal and will die unless he repents.
The final death will be in the lake of fire which was originally prepared for the devil and his angels Mat.25v41 not for man. Unrepentant sinners will be cast into it but obviously will burn up seeing they are physical and mortal. Only sinful spirits shall be eternally punished because they can not die. Sharing the same fire or punishment does not mean man is spirit that would survive death.
Only the repentant, converted man will become spirit and go on into eternal life.
Rev.19v20, 20v10, 21v8 and lastly Mal.4v3.
other religions may teach something different but this is a christian view of it.

So you are saying, or it is saying, that we sinners don't live on for enternity in flames? But instead just die and are non exisitent from there forward?
 

blackout

Violet.
When people complain about hell, I wonder what they expect it to be like, or what they want it to be like and for how long? People don't seem to be bothered if a killer gets life in prison which is essentially "forever" in this life.

70 years is HARDLY forever.

less than a drop in the sea.....


and really... even in prisons....
the prisoners aren't SUPPOSED to be tortured.

It's all ridiculous.
I don't even know why I've entered into this conversation.

 

Danny Heim

Active Member
Yeah our buddy Ed would burn forever.

Now, unlike Beta, you are saying sinners burn forever. Is that correct? I'll get to Beta later, I guess because she or he has committed the less of the the sin. :)

Thesavorofpan, I could just see you standing there saying, "Yeah our buddy Ed would burn forever". You'd be saying it in sort of a drone like state, eyes strainght forward, eating an apple. Quite an image really.

Ok I'll get straight to the question. If you beleive that, surely you have justified it in your heart somehow. Could you please explain just how you've managed to do that? I'd really like to know.
 

Danny Heim

Active Member
When people complain about hell, I wonder what they expect it to be like, or what they want it to be like and for how long? People don't seem to be bothered if a killer gets life in prison which is essentially "forever" in this life.
Hey there Man of Faith. I think your logic is a bit off. Life in prison sitting in a cell is about a billion miles from being set on fire for trillions of years, only to find out you have zillions of years to go before you realized the flames have just started.

See, there isn't a comparison for degree of punishment like this anywhere in our language sets. Hell fire is the worst possible torture humans can conceive of; beats water boarding hands down. Therefore it is also easy to conclude your God Jehovah is the worst tyrant ever conceived of by humans. I'll ask you also, how have you justified these facts in your heart?
 

Danny Heim

Active Member
70 years is HARDLY forever.

less than a drop in the sea.....


and really... even in prisons....
the prisoners aren't SUPPOSED to be tortured.

It's all ridiculous.
I don't even know why I've entered into this conversation.
Stick with it UltraViolet, it's a worthy cause. We have about a billion or more people on this planet carrying around this sort of belief. Evolution happens on scale, to the entire species. These sort of beleifs are slowing the rest of us down at a time when evolution is needed in the extreme. To solve the problems we face on earth, we need to evolve and evolve quick. So keep fighting.
 

Eliot Wild

Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
I don't remember at what age I came to question the fundamentalist teachings I was taught as a child, but I do remember it was the concept of "Hell" that seemed too absurd to be true and marked, at least in my mind, a large flaw in their theology.

It seems to me, for a creature to be culpable of a crime against God, there must be motive and intent. And this seems especially true if we are talking about Perfect Divine Justice. Mankind's faulty imitation of God's Divine, Pure, Perfect Justice is used by the Courts here in the material world to create civic order, to rehabilitate offenders when possible and punish criminals to bring a certain sense of satisfaction to the victims.

But even in our flawed human mimicry of Perfect, Divine Justice, most Courts require evidence of intent.

If a man or woman spends their entire life honestly and sincerely seeking TRUTH, but just doesn't happen to ever be exposed to fundamentalist teachings, they still are bound for eternal punishment.

Or if through whatever fault of their own they fail to recognize the need for Christian Salvation, all the while bearing no malice toward God and still honestly seeking to reconcile those faults and find TRUTH but just can't seem to do so, the fundamentalist teaching that I was raised with indicates that innocent soul is still bound for Hell.

And if I am wrong in this, then someone with more knowledge of fundamentalist teachings, please correct me or clarify me. But this is the view of all the Southern Baptist churches I attended as a child.

I certainly mean no offense to anyone personally, but to me, it seems that anyone who believes this is an aspect of God's perfect character needs to perhaps seek professional help. Seriously. I am not making a joke. But that sort of belief seems to me to be indicative of a bitterly malicious nature and terribly troubled psyche.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Hey there Man of Faith. I think your logic is a bit off. Life in prison sitting in a cell is about a billion miles from being set on fire for trillions of years, only to find out you have zillions of years to go before you realized the flames have just started.

See, there isn't a comparison for degree of punishment like this anywhere in our language sets. Hell fire is the worst possible torture humans can conceive of; beats water boarding hands down. Therefore it is also easy to conclude your God Jehovah is the worst tyrant ever conceived of by humans. I'll ask you also, how have you justified these facts in your heart?

Well you didn't answer my questions about what you would deem a just punishment for rejecting forgiveness of sins, which God made ready by the shedding of his only son's blood. I don't have to justify God's actions to myself. Let's face it, a God that can create the universe and all that we see doesn't have to answer to us. However it is biblical that there are different levels of punisment, what all that intails I don't know, but Jesus said it would be worse for some in hell than others. I justify that God is just and so is his punishment.

Whenever you hear about someone going to hell and returning they always say that they deserved to be there and they are changed.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
When people complain about hell, I wonder what they expect it to be like, or what they want it to be like and for how long? People don't seem to be bothered if a killer gets life in prison which is essentially "forever" in this life.
Hell is not a prison. At last not the image of hell with fire and pain and such.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Hell is not a prison. At last not the image of hell with fire and pain and such.

According to Bill Weise who claims to have been to hell, it has dungeons with bars.

Jonah 2:6 I sank down to the very roots of the mountains.
I was imprisoned in the earth,
whose gates lock shut forever.
But you, O Lord my God,
snatched me from the jaws of death!
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
According to Bill Weise who claims to have been to hell, it has dungeons with bars.

Jonah 2:6 I sank down to the very roots of the mountains.
I was imprisoned in the earth,
whose gates lock shut forever.
But you, O Lord my God,
snatched me from the jaws of death!
Dungeons with bars are irrelevant. A prison has rules (or should have, at last). Hell does not come up to the standards. It is just a place for mindless suffering. Besides, the people who end up there are, if we are to take some peoples word on it, not people who should be there.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
In the earliest view, which the Eastern Orthodox still believe, no one goes to heaven or hell. They all go to Hades, the Greek netherworld. The wicked go to Tartaroo, a sort of prison, and the righteous go to Abraham's bossom, like paradise.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
So you are saying, or it is saying, that we sinners don't live on for enternity in flames? But instead just die and are non exisitent from there forward?
Yes , that is what scripture says.
But don't forget , unrepentant sinners will still die in the flames of hell-fire. It will not be a picnic. :no:
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Yes , that is what scripture says.
But don't forget , unrepentant sinners will still die in the flames of hell-fire. It will not be a picnic. :no:
Does "unrepentent sinners" include a) those who have never heard the Christian message, or b) those who have heard the Christian message, but were raised in a different religion/culture, and thus less likely to accept that message than someone born in a Christian household?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Personally, of all the Christian sects, I like the Mormon vision of the afterlife the best. When you die, your spirit goes to the spirit world where you have the opportunity to learn about Mormon teachings and prepare for the ressurection. After the ressurrection, the majority will end up in one of the three tiers of heaven: the Celestial, the Terrestial, and the Telestial. Where you end up is based upon your faith in God and the Mormon teachings, your good works (or bad deeds, as it may be), and your desires. The traditional hell is only reserved for Satan and those who utterly reject Jesus and the Holy Spirit after the period of instruction after death.

It just seems a lot more fair to me: less is left up to chance or good fortune of being born in a Mormon household, or with a genetic predisposition to believe, and how you lived your life, regardless of your faith, has a lot of bearing on where you end up.
 
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