Leviticus and Homosexuality

[sojourner]

I didn't condemn anyone, G-D condemned the acts.

False. The guy who wrote Leviticus condemned the acts -- and that's OK, provided that we all understand that this is no longer ancient Israel, the culture climate is completely different, and we know a lot more about the human psyche than the writer did.

 

[Estro Felino]

False. The guy who wrote Leviticus condemned the acts -- and that's OK, provided that we all understand that this is no longer ancient Israel, the culture climate is completely different, and we know a lot more about the human psyche than the writer did.

well...I guess that when sex becomes lust, God is a bit disgusted. That's why he inspired that Leviticus sentence.
By the way we are talking about an epoch of promiscuity, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah proved it.
so it was necessary a rule that tried to induce men to calm down, and have sex only with women.
If you are straight, sleep with women. Leave men alone.

 

[Imaginary_Friends]

Incorrect. What is condemned is not homosexuality. What is condemned are homosexual acts. For the writer of Leviticus, there is no such notion as "homosexuality." One cannot condemn what does not exist.

Really? If you want to be gay, be gay. If you want to believe in a god that accepts that, then believe that. But with that said, you need to pick another religion. Why try to find a nanoscopic loophole to fit a sexual orientation you know Yahweh "finds abdominal".

This thread really just shows at what point does religion lose meaning. As in the socialization of religion. Since being offensive is the worst thing you can do it has the left leaners on the offense. "We are gay and we want to be Christians now and if you disagree you're a meanie ........ and a racist!" ( I say that in jest but that is the typical fashion)

So now you can be whatever you want and do whatever you want, what's the point? Everyone goes to heaven, everyone gets a Obama phone, everyone gets first place. No one can do "Not which is wrong in the eyes of the LORD".

 

[sojourner]

Really? If you want to be gay, be gay. If you want to believe in a god that accepts that, then believe that. But with that said, you need to pick another religion. Why try to find a nanoscopic loophole to fit a sexual orientation you know Yahweh "finds abdominal".

This thread really just shows at what point does religion lose meaning. As in the socialization of religion. Since being offensive is the worst thing you can do it has the left leaners on the offense. "We are gay and we want to be Christians now and if you disagree you're a racist!" ( I say that in jest but that is the typical fashion)

So now you can be whatever you want and do whatever you want, what's the point? Everyone goes to heaven, everyone gets a Obama phone, everyone gets first place. No one can do "Not what is wrong in the eyes of the LORD".

Why should one have to "pick another religion?" Christianity has, since nearly the beginning, accommodated itself to all kinds of cultural shifts, beginning with circumcision. It's really not a "nanoscopic loophole." It simply is what it is. No one is saying that God finds homosexuality abominable. What is being said is that a condemnation of the homosexual act is culturally -- not morally -- imbedded.

This is precisely where religion gets its meaning -- when differences can be accommodated without condemnation, that's grace, my friend. Christianity has always lived at the edges of socialization -- from the very start -- wherever grace is most needed. Christianity has never been about shutting the door on people. In it's purest form, it's always been about finding a way to be loved and accepted where you are -- for who you are.

That's right! Christ came to reconcile the world. Everybody gets to play; everybody gets in. That's what Xy is all about. It's about the lame walking, the blind receiving their sight, the meek inheriting the earth, the captive being set free, the oppressed lifted up. It's about proclaiming the year of God's favor toward humanity.

Why are you acting the iconoclast here?

 

[Serenity7855]

False. The guy who wrote Leviticus condemned the acts -- and that's OK, provided that we all understand that this is no longer ancient Israel, the culture climate is completely different, and we know a lot more about the human psyche than the writer did.

God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Cultures and lifestyles may change over time but God does not. His message is the same today as it ever was. To commit adultery has the same consequences throughout time. The same applies with all of the principles of the bible, other then those fulfilled in the Old Testament though. They are no longer needed, but that does not cover Leviticus 20:13

The words of the writer were selected by God. Words that he wants us to read. Word that mean the same today as they did 4000 years ago.

 

[sojourner]

God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Cultures and lifestyles may change over time but God does not. His message is the same today as it ever was. To commit adultery has the same consequences throughout time. The same applies with all of the principles of the bible, other then those fulfilled in the Old Testament though. They are no longer needed, but that does not cover Leviticus 20:13

The words of the writer were selected by God. Words that he wants us to read. Word that mean the same today as they did 4000 years ago.

Yyeeeah... I guess that's why the God-concept of biblical culture has changed from a henotheistic view of ancient Sumerian gods, to a Canaanite mountain god, and from that to the God of the Jews; from that to the Trinity of Christianity, who bears very little resemblance to El.

Nooo, God is exactly the same as ever. God changes as we change, because our God-concepts are culturally-based.

 

[McNap]

Nope McNap. According to the bible.

According to the bible a boy who has slept with one other boy only is not included as violator of this law, since the verse says that you have to sleep with another boy as you did with a girl (Lev. 18:22). And Lev. 20:13 adds the word ALSO.
Most gay boys never sleep with girls.
This verse is against heterosexuals.
Looking into the mind of a heterosexual boy he indeed considers it an abomination to have seks with another boy, so this verse makes perfect sense to me.
But a gay boy doesn't consider it an abomination to have seks with another boy. He rather thinks it's abomination to have seks with a girl. He finds seks with a girl YUCK.
And to a homosexual this verse doesn't make sense if you put it in the way you do. That's why I think you're wrong.
This verse is written in the sense of: "Going beyond your natural seks".
Gay boys or lesbian girls don't want to be seen as straight. If they say: "I don't feel straight" would you believe that?
Same is for bisexuals. They don't feel straight.
You can't just deny their feelings and deem them liars. Or would you tell a gay: "No, you don't feel that"
?

 

[firedragon]

According to the bible a boy who has slept with one other boy only is not included as violator of this law, since the verse says that you have to sleep with another boy as you did with a girl (Lev. 18:22). And Lev. 20:13 adds the word ALSO.
Most gay boys never sleep with girls.
This verse is against heterosexuals.
Looking into the mind of a heterosexual boy he indeed considers it an abomination to have seks with another boy, so this verse makes perfect sense to me.
But a gay boy doesn't consider it an abomination to have seks with another boy. He rather thinks it's abomination to have seks with a girl. He finds seks with a girl YUCK.
And to a homosexual this verse doesn't make sense if you put it in the way you do. That's why I think you're wrong.
This verse is written in the sense of: "Going beyond your natural seks".
Gay boys or lesbian girls don't want to be seen as straight. If they say: "I don't feel straight" would you believe that?
Same is for bisexuals. They don't feel straight.
You can't just deny their feelings and deem them liars. Or would you tell a gay: "No, you don't feel that"
?

Also is a continuation from the previous verse. It is stupid to go on about Also.

It doesnt say Gay boy sleeping with a man the way he would sleep with a girl. It says a MAN. You are feeding words into the bible.

Think clearly. Dont be bias.

 

[firedragon]

You can't just deny their feelings and deem them liars. Or would you tell a gay: "No, you don't feel that"
?

Let me be direct and abrupt. I hope you understand English even though you don't even try to understand the bible.

"I don't say this. Its the bible that says this". Hope you comprehend that statement.

 

[McNap]

Let me be direct and abrupt. I hope you understand English even though you don't even try to understand the bible.

"I don't say this. Its the bible that says this". Hope you comprehend that statement.

It's not what the bible says to everybody.
I interpret it in a different way.

And you do it your way because you want to justify that their forefathers killed prophets.

 

[firedragon]

It's not what the bible says to everybody.
I interpret it in a different way.

And you do it your way because you want to justify that their forefathers killed prophets.

Forefathers killed prophets?? What does that have with this thread?

And how could you interpret "Men who lie with men .........." as "Gay boys lie with men ..........."? How did Men become Gay boys?

Errm, I truly don't know what to say to you brother.

Peace bro.

 

[McNap]

Forefathers killed prophets?? What does that have with this thread?

And how could you interpret "Men who lie with men .........." as "Gay boys lie with men ..........."? How did Men become Gay boys?

Errm, I truly don't know what to say to you brother.

Peace bro.

What you do now is exactly what the forefathers did in the past.
They interpreted these verses in their own stirn way. They were no longer listening to what it says.

If a man (also) sleeps with a man in the way he slept with a girl.

That doesn't mean you can kill a man who sleeps with a man when he never slept with a girl yet.

The forefathers weren't listening anymore and that's why God left them with their old covenant (or actually THEY left God first because of their different assertion of the old covenant) and God announced a new covenant that would take place in the future. Which will be the old covenant as it is truly meant.
In other words the new covenant is nothing new. It just condemns people who unfairly condemn, since the law has never been valid before Christ died.

 

[Serenity7855]

Yyeeeah... I guess that's why the God-concept of biblical culture has changed from a henotheistic view of ancient Sumerian gods, to a Canaanite mountain god, and from that to the God of the Jews; from that to the Trinity of Christianity, who bears very little resemblance to El.

Nooo, God is exactly the same as ever. God changes as we change, because our God-concepts are culturally-based.

I apologise for being persistent but God definitely does not change. The scriptures make it clear and it is my firm belief. Of course you have every right to believe differently.

God Never Changes.
so your future is secure and eternal.

Hebrews 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows" (James 1:17).

God never changes. In fact, it is impossible for God to change. The influences that cause change in your life have no effect on God. He will never be stronger or weaker. His knowledge and wisdom will not increase or diminish. God does not compromise or change His values. And God does not have mood swings. Life and its uncertainties may shake you, but God-the Rock of Ages-does not move. If you cling to Him, His strength will sustain you.

God's unchanging purpose gives you eternal significance. Psalm 33:11 states, "The Lord's plans stand firm forever; His intentions can never be shaken." God's plan is unchangeable. It existed at the beginning of creation and remains the same today. And you are part of His plan! Paul explains, "We are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things He planned for us long ago" (Ephesians 2:10).

God's unchangeable ways assure you of unwavering guidance. Psalm 18:30 states, "As for God, His way is perfect. All the Lord's promises prove true." God's principles for life never change. His guidelines, given in Scripture, produce fruitful lives when you follow them.

God's unchanging Word equips you with timeless truth. Isaiah declared, "The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever" (Isaiah 40:8). God's words and commands are timeless.

God's unchanging commitment guarantees everlasting security. If you have trusted in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you can be assured of eternal life. God is eternally committed to your redemption, your spiritual growth, and your eternal destiny. God's commitment to you is as strong as He is eternally constant. The storms of life are continually changing, but God remains the same. He is consistent and reliable. He is your anchor. You can count on God because He never changes.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

http://www.discovergod.com/character13.html

 

[firedragon]

What you do now is exactly what the forefathers did in the past.
They interpreted these verses in their own stirn way. They were no longer listening to what it says.

If a man (also) sleeps with a man in the way he slept with a girl.

That doesn't mean you can kill a man who sleeps with a man when he never slept with a girl yet.

The forefathers weren't listening anymore and that's why God left them with their old covenant (or actually THEY left God first because of their different assertion of the old covenant) and God announced a new covenant that would take place in the future. Which will be the old covenant as it is truly meant.
In other words the new covenant is nothing new. It just condemns people who unfairly condemn, since the law has never been valid before Christ died.

Who said Also?

• Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. - TNIV
• Thou shalt not lie with man, as with woman: it is abomination - Vayikra (Jewish Leviticus)
• Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. - King James Version
• You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. - Good News Bible

Where does it say a man also sleeps with a man. .....? Which bible?

And why are you quoting the new covenant when the thread is Leviticus? Also why whilst the new testament vehemently condemns men who lie with men?

What are you looking for in the bible brother?

 

[McNap]

You shall not lie with man as with woman.

That doesn't make a difference.
You can't murder a man that lies with a man when he never lay with a woman.
If he doesn't even know how it's like to lie with a woman, then how can you say he lay with a man as with woman?

In Leviticus 20:13 of the King James Version it says: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman

I quoted the new covenant since the law and the prophets get their meaning in the life of Jesus. They were all writing about Jesus. Just as the law was.

The new testament doesn't condemn all men who lie with men. The new testament puts it in the same sense as the old testament. Paul was talking about men that exchanged their natural seks with women for men. These men Paul was talking about knew what it is like to have seks with a woman.

Since 11 years I've been looking for injustice in the word of God, the bible and till now I haven't found it.
During my search I found nothing but freedom, justice, forgiveness, so I bet I'm not going to find what I had in mind.

When I asked you:

Gay boys or lesbian girls don't want to be seen as straight. If they say: "I don't feel straight" would you believe that?
Same is for bisexuals. They don't feel straight.
You can't just deny their feelings and deem them liars. Or would you tell a gay: "No, you don't feel that"
?

You answered:

Let me be direct and abrupt. I hope you understand English even though you don't even try to understand the bible.

"I don't say this. Its the bible that says this". Hope you comprehend that statement.

I didn't mean to hear from you what the bible says.
I meant to hear what would be your personal reply. Apart from the bible.

 

[firedragon]

You shall not lie with man as with woman.

That doesn't make a difference.
You can't murder a man that lies with a man when he never lay with a woman.
If he doesn't even know how it's like to lie with a woman, then how can you say he lay with a man as with woman?

It is an explanation because Leviticus does not use one word for the homosexual act. It is absurd to think that a man can exactly be with a man the way he lies with a woman. It is an explanation.

In Leviticus 20:13 of the King James Version it says: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman

I quoted the new covenant since the law and the prophets get their meaning in the life of Jesus. They were all writing about Jesus. Just as the law was.

The new testament doesn't condemn all men who lie with men. The new testament puts it in the same sense as the old testament. Paul was talking about men that exchanged their natural seks with women for men. These men Paul was talking about knew what it is like to have seks with a woman.

Since 11 years I've been looking for injustice in the word of God, the bible and till now I haven't found it.
During my search I found nothing but freedom, justice, forgiveness, so I bet I'm not going to find what I had in mind.

I am glad and I dont dispute you in this thread about your new covenant. I am just stating what Leviticus says. Thats all.

When I asked you:
You answered:
I didn't mean to hear from you what the bible says.
I meant to hear what would be your personal reply. Apart from the bible.

Alright. I was answering your question from the point of view of this thread and the bible. Personally this is what I believe.

• Whatever your sexual orientation is that is your personal matter and no ones bloody business.
• It is eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. That means punishment to a crime equal to the crime. Even if one person in his narrow thinking presumes homosexuality as a crime, what is the punishment? Death? It is a disparity. It doesnt go.
• We dont know who wrote Leviticus. All we know is that its in Hebrew. There are so many problems there in. If we are to take the whole of the OT as God given truth we will be committing incest and keeping concubines and not allowing disabled people in the church.

So there brother.

Peace

 

[sojourner]

I apologise for being persistent but God definitely does not change. The scriptures make it clear and it is my firm belief. Of course you have every right to believe differently.

God Never Changes.
so your future is secure and eternal.

Hebrews 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, He never changes or casts shifting shadows" (James 1:17).

God never changes. In fact, it is impossible for God to change. The influences that cause change in your life have no effect on God. He will never be stronger or weaker. His knowledge and wisdom will not increase or diminish. God does not compromise or change His values. And God does not have mood swings. Life and its uncertainties may shake you, but God-the Rock of Ages-does not move. If you cling to Him, His strength will sustain you.

God's unchanging purpose gives you eternal significance. Psalm 33:11 states, "The Lord's plans stand firm forever; His intentions can never be shaken." God's plan is unchangeable. It existed at the beginning of creation and remains the same today. And you are part of His plan! Paul explains, "We are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so that we can do the good things He planned for us long ago" (Ephesians 2:10).

God's unchangeable ways assure you of unwavering guidance. Psalm 18:30 states, "As for God, His way is perfect. All the Lord's promises prove true." God's principles for life never change. His guidelines, given in Scripture, produce fruitful lives when you follow them.

God's unchanging Word equips you with timeless truth. Isaiah declared, "The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our God stands forever" (Isaiah 40:8). God's words and commands are timeless.

God's unchanging commitment guarantees everlasting security. If you have trusted in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you can be assured of eternal life. God is eternally committed to your redemption, your spiritual growth, and your eternal destiny. God's commitment to you is as strong as He is eternally constant. The storms of life are continually changing, but God remains the same. He is consistent and reliable. He is your anchor. You can count on God because He never changes.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

God's Character

My point, Beloved, is that our concept of God has changed, which puts us, theologically, in different positions in relationship to God, as those concepts have evolved. That evolution is largely due to cultural shifts and progress in scientific knowledge. IOW, we view God differently as our cultural perspective shifts. That indicates that what we perceive as God's messages to us, and God's directives to us, change as we change. Therefore, we now discount the directives for slaves to be "good slaves," because we no longer perceive that God tolerates slavery, as we once did. We also have discounted Jesus' assertion that he came "only for Israel," as the Church has become almost entirely Gentile. We have also discounted the literal 6-day creation myth as a viable, scientific explanation for the creation of the world, now that we know more about the age of the earth, the development of species, and the big bang.

Likewise, I think we can discount the injunctions agains homosexual behavior, now that we know homosexuality to be a normal, healthy, human sexual identity.

 

[TheGunShoj]

If a man (also) sleeps with a man in the way he slept with a girl.

That doesn't mean you can kill a man who sleeps with a man when he never slept with a girl yet.
QUOTE]

It isn't referring to that specific man having already slept with a girl. It means as men typically lay with women.

to paraphrase, "If a man lay with a man as men typically lay with women (sex), it is an abomination."

That's how I interpret it and it seems pretty black and white to me. I've never heard anyone interpret it the way you are now.

*edit* im not sure why the quote feature isn't working. I did it twice and made sure not to delete anything from the quote codes.

 

[McBell]

If a man (also) sleeps with a man in the way he slept with a girl.

That doesn't mean you can kill a man who sleeps with a man when he never slept with a girl yet.

It isn't referring to that specific man having already slept with a girl. It means as men typically lay with women.

to paraphrase, "If a man lay with a man as men typically lay with women (sex), it is an abomination."

That's how I interpret it and it seems pretty black and white to me. I've never heard anyone interpret it the way you are now.

*edit* im not sure why the quote feature isn't working. I did it twice and made sure not to delete anything from the quote codes.

you are missing "[/" in front on QUOTE]

 

[Mycroft]

I apologise for being persistent but God definitely does not change.

For that to be true you would have to say that the god of the New Testemant was identical to the monster of the old testement. christians state that god did change between the OT and the NT and the bible seems to back this up.