Leviticus

[URAVIP2ME]

re: "It is written..." because the rabbis, who could read, told them so. The Torah is read aloud in service.
So your story is that Jesus could write, but chose not to? So we're back to God deciding to have Jesus just mention stuff to a few people, rather than do the helpful thing and write it down?

Are the 5,000+ that Jesus talked to when he fed them bread and fish 'few'?

Yes, the Torah was read aloud in service, Isn't that why Jesus read Isaiah 61 aloud at Luke 4 vs16-20?__________

 

[Autodidact]

Weren't the people of Luke 3 vs1,2,4 literate? _______
They were around at the time of Christ.

Around 5% of them were literate, and around 95% illiterate.

 

[fallingblood]

Are the 5,000+ that Jesus talked to when he fed them bread and fish 'few'?

Yes, the Torah was read aloud in service, Isn't that why Jesus read Isaiah 61 aloud at Luke 4 vs16-20?__________

Just an interesting note. The incident in Luke 4, about Jesus reading, is illogical because of the way that scrolls (which would have been the medium used in that case), would not have allowed for the reading that was accredited to Jesus. By the time Luke was being written, the codex was becoming the standard for Christians writers, and it is in that format that would have allowed for the reading.

More so, the whole incident doesn't make sense anyway. Mainly because the rest of the story describes a Nazareth that did not exist. There was no actual synagogue in Nazareth, and there was no cliff that Jesus could have been thrown from. More so, the scripture mentioned had nothing to do with Jesus anyway.

 

[Autodidact]

Are the 5,000+ that Jesus talked to when he fed them bread and fish 'few'?

Compared to the billions of people who have ever lived, yes.

Yes, the Torah was read aloud in service, Isn't that why Jesus read Isaiah 61 aloud at Luke 4 vs16-20?__________

Maybe, but more likely it was memorized.

 

[Levite]

Maybe, but more likely it was memorized.

Since the time of Ezra the prophet, who instituted the public reading of the Torah on a weekly basis, it has been forbidden to recite from memory for the purpose of a public Torah reading. One must read the words directly from the scroll, lest one inadvertently make a mistake. And, in fact, it has been universal procedure throughout the Jewish people, from time beyond reckoning, to have at least one or two people standing next to the public reader who are experts in reading Torah (or, for the past thousand years or so, 1-2 people who are following along in a copy of the text which has vowelling and diacritical marks, since those do not appear in the scroll), who will be able to correct the reader in the event that he errs in his reading from the scroll.

Torah might have been quoted from memory during sermons, or in the Talmudic academies during debate, but never in public readings.

 

[kejos]

Weren't the people of Luke 3 vs1,2,4 literate? _______
They were around at the time of Christ.

That was their advantage. Literacy is of no avail when it is used to pervert and hide truth, which is what the great majority of literate people do today- because Christ forces them to. Whether literate or not, the contemporaries of Christ had an intelligent honesty far superior to the absurd self-deception that one now sees every day.

 

[Kathryn]

Reading this thread has made me tired.

Conversely, reading passages from the Gospels this morning in my quiet time energized me.

People, reading and understanding the bible really isn't that difficult for the most part, though detailed study reveals much more than simply casual reading. Sure, there are passages that are challenging, and concepts that are mind blowing - but reading and generally understanding a good translation simply isn't that difficult.

I suggest the Jerusalem bible - I have found that particular translation, with it's notes and study guides - to be especially good.

Just pick it up and start reading - from a fresh perspective. I think you will be surprised at the truths, insights, and beauty that you find on those pages of ancient text. Clear your head and just READ it.

As for the question about Jesus' every existance, I think in most people who bring it up, it's a hypocritical stance. If there was as much written about any other person who supposedly lived 2000 years ago, most scholars and pseudo scholars would accept his/her existance as highly probable or even certain.

Jesus just ****** some people off.

 

[kejos]

I suggest the Jerusalem bible - I have found that particular translation, with it's notes and study guides - to be especially good.

'Good' for papism and papists. Though arguably, they should use the New Jerusalem Bible (nothing to do with the New Jerusalem).

Just pick it up and start reading - from a fresh perspective.

The only way to get a fresh, unworldly perspective is to use original languages.

(Unless you read my translation, of course.)

 

[rusra02]

I was born and raised Catholic but after I decided to read the bible, I lost my faith in the Christian religion, that was some time ago. I recently befriended this guy who is 22, and a true God fearing virgin, he preaches to me ALL the time, so I decided I'd give the bible another chance, and it still ****** me off. So this guy, I'll call him... Eli, was telling me that he had been thinking about getting a tattoo, but then he heard that the bible condemns it, so he couldn't. So I went home, dusted off my bible, and indeed found this condemnation in Leviticus, immediately after the verse: Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. This is Leviticus 19:27. It makes me SO angry when Christians portray themselves as hardcore followers of God's law and doing what the bible says but they simply ignore some things that don't quite fit into their liking. 'Cause I gotta tell ya, Eli is as clean shaven as they get, this guy is totally anti body hair, but tattoos are bad, premarital sex is bad and also no cussing because that's what the bible says. Comments?

Christian are no longer under the Law of Moses, of which Leviticus is a part. Pagan worshipers, such as the Egyptians, tattooed the names or symbols of their deities on their breast or arms. By complying with Jehovah’s ban on tattoo markings, the Israelites would stand out as different from other nations.—Deuteronomy 14:1, 2.
While Christians today are not under the Law of Moses, the prohibition it laid on tattooing is sobering. (Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14, 15) If you are a Christian, you would certainly not want to make markings on your body—even temporarily—that smack of paganism or false worship.—2 Corinthians 6:15-18.
Far more important than whether to wear a tattoo or not is our need to come to know the truth about God and Jesus Christ (John 17:3). There are many false religions that claim to worship the God of the Bible, but they disown him by their works and are not Christians at all. (Titus 1:16) No wonder people turn away from religions that preach millions of their adherents into slaughtering one another and commit heinous crimes in the name of God.​

 

[Kathryn]

The only way to get a fresh, unworldly perspective is to use original languages.

(Unless you read my translation, of course.)

With the tools so readily available to all of us (or at least those of us who can buy books, go to a library, or get online) it's not that difficult to research the original language and the original meanings of words. In fact, that's an excellent suggestion and I second it.

 

[Autodidact]

Since the time of Ezra the prophet, who instituted the public reading of the Torah on a weekly basis, it has been forbidden to recite from memory for the purpose of a public Torah reading. One must read the words directly from the scroll, lest one inadvertently make a mistake. And, in fact, it has been universal procedure throughout the Jewish people, from time beyond reckoning, to have at least one or two people standing next to the public reader who are experts in reading Torah (or, for the past thousand years or so, 1-2 people who are following along in a copy of the text which has vowelling and diacritical marks, since those do not appear in the scroll), who will be able to correct the reader in the event that he errs in his reading from the scroll.

Torah might have been quoted from memory during sermons, or in the Talmudic academies during debate, but never in public readings.

So do I stand corrected, and we should assume that Jesus (whether actual or mythical) could read?

 

[fallingblood]

So do I stand corrected, and we should assume that Jesus (whether actual or mythical) could read?

I would say no. When considering the story in a historical context, as well as a geographical context, the story makes very little sense.

In a theological sense, it makes quite a bit of sense. It shows a common theme among Luke/Acts. That theme being that the Jesus movement started out as a message for a Jewish audience. When they rejected it, then and only then did it become a message for the gentiles.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So do I stand corrected, and we should assume that Jesus (whether actual or mythical) could read?

According to Scripture wasn't Jesus a carpenter?

What kind of knowledge would a carpenter need in order to make furniture,
measure for windows and doors? Perhaps Jesus helped build the Synagogue.
Whether a house or a Synagogue would you want an illiterate carpenter to do work for you?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Just an interesting note. The incident in Luke 4, about Jesus reading, is illogical because of the way that scrolls (which would have been the medium used in that case), would not have allowed for the reading that was accredited to Jesus. By the time Luke was being written, the codex was becoming the standard for Christians writers, and it is in that format that would have allowed for the reading.
More so, the whole incident doesn't make sense anyway. Mainly because the rest of the story describes a Nazareth that did not exist. There was no actual synagogue in Nazareth, and there was no cliff that Jesus could have been thrown from. More so, the scripture mentioned had nothing to do with Jesus anyway.

Scrolls were used in the Synagogues even in the first century.
Hebrew has " the roll of the book"- Psalm 40vs7,8.
Scriptures were written and copied on rolls or scrolls of leather, parchment or papyrus. [ Jeremiah 36vs1,2,28,32]
In a long sheet it was rolled around a stick. For a very long scroll, a stick was used at each end and the scroll was rolled on both sticks toward the center. When about to read such a 'roll', a person unrolled it with one hand while rolling it up with the other until he located the desired place.
After reading, he again rolled up the scroll.
Jesus could have very easily done that.

The 'scroll' [roll of the book] of Rev 5v1 has seven seals- see Rev 6v14.

Please also notice 2nd Tim 4v13.
' and the books, but especially the parchments '
Couldn't the 'parchments' mean the scrolls of Jewish Scripture?


How do you know Nazareth did not exist?_______
Most scholars identify Nazareth with modern day En Nasira [Nazerat] in Galilee. Some have identified the cliff there with a rocky cliff some 40 feet hight located SW of the city.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Around 5% of them were literate, and around 95% illiterate.

If only 5%, then what would be the point of Paul's counsel to youth [1st Timothy 4v12-16] to give attendance [apply oneself] to reading......

Paul gave a reason to young Timothy as to why he should 'study' at
2nd Timothy 2v15.
Paul also acknowledged at 2nd Timothy 3v15 that Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from childhood.

see also Acts 13v15; 17v11.

 

[fallingblood]

According to Scripture wasn't Jesus a carpenter?

What kind of knowledge would a carpenter need in order to make furniture,
measure for windows and doors? Perhaps Jesus helped build the Synagogue.
Whether a house or a Synagogue would you want an illiterate carpenter to do work for you?

Actually, according to scripture, Jesus was a tekton. That does not translate perfectly to carpenter. It is probably closer to a modern day handy man.

Also, one would not need to be literate to do that work. The fact is, the majority of carpenters and the like were illiterate. They were lower class and literacy simply was not something they were too interested in. The evidence actually points to the idea that in that region, literacy rates were 1 to 3%, and that being mainly reserved for the elite.

Finally, for measurements, just do a little research on the history of measurements.

 

[fallingblood]

Scrolls were used in the Synagogues even in the first century.

Can you show any evidence for that? Yes, scrolls were the main type of medium during that time. However, synagogues really did not start, in the modern sense (as in an actual building) until the second century. The reason is simple, Jewish worship centered around the Temple. There was no need for a synagogue as being referred to in Luke. It wasn't until after the Temple was destroyed that the need for a synagogue became important.

More so, there is no evidence that a synagogue existed in Nazareth. The term synagogue, at that time, referred to a meeting place or a gathering. There was no actual synagogue structure in Nazareth.

As for the scrolls, if you look at what he is reading, he is taking it from two distanced texts. Because of that, a scroll would not have allowed the reading for the same reason that you explained how they work.

How do you know Nazareth did not exist?_______
Most scholars identify Nazareth with modern day En Nasira [Nazerat] in Galilee. Some have identified the cliff there with a rocky cliff some 40 feet hight located SW of the city.

[/quote] I never said it didn't exist. We know where Nazareth is. If you look at the geography of Nazareth, there is no cliff that would fit the story in Luke. Not unless they walked quite a bit, and that is not what Luke is saying.

 

[Autodidact]

According to Scripture wasn't Jesus a carpenter?

What kind of knowledge would a carpenter need in order to make furniture,
measure for windows and doors? Perhaps Jesus helped build the Synagogue.
Whether a house or a Synagogue would you want an illiterate carpenter to do work for you?

Sure. Why not?

 

[Autodidact]

If only 5%, then what would be the point of Paul's counsel to youth [1st Timothy 4v12-16] to give attendance [apply oneself] to reading......

Paul gave a reason to young Timothy as to why he should 'study' at
2nd Timothy 2v15.
Paul also acknowledged at 2nd Timothy 3v15 that Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from childhood.

see also Acts 13v15; 17v11.

So you're saying this noted historian is wrong, and you know better? Because Paul told Timothy to study? That's your evidence?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Under the Constitution of the Mosaic law males were required to attend the festival times at the temple. Other times many people did not regularly attend the far away temple in Jerusalem but their local synagogue:

Matt 4v23; 6v2; 6v5; 9v35; 10v17; 12v9; 13v54; 23v6; 23v34
Mark 1vs21,2329,39; 3v1; 5v22,35,36,38; 6v2;12v39; 13v9
Luke 4vs15,16,20,28,33,38,44; 6v6; 7v5; 8v41,49; 11v43; 13vs10,14; 20v46; 21v12
John 9v22; 12v42; 16v2; 18v20
Acts 6v9; 9v2; 9v20; 13vs5,14,15,43; 14v1; 15v21; 17vs1,10,17; 18v4,7,8,17,19,26; 19v8; 22v19; 24;12; 26v11

Oh, but there is a cliff at: En Nasira [Nazaret] in Galilee modern day Nazareth.
Located SW of the city that cliff is some 40 feet high.
Possibly one could walk from Nazareth to Ptolemais on the Mediterranean Coast in seven hours; to Tiberias on the Sea of Galilee in five hours; and to Jerusalem in three days.