LGBTQ

[Kfox]

Have you tried thinking about what those groups all have in common? Like, belonging to a category that goes explicitly against traditional views of gender roles?

No?

Maybe try that.

Female engineers, female soldiers, and female police officers goes against traditional gender roles as well! traditional roles have been obsolete for at least 50 years; don’t cha find it rather odd that they would attempt to build a culture around it today?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Female engineers, female soldiers, and female police officers goes against traditional gender roles as well!

And why do you think that women (including straight women) have historically lent more support to LGBTQ+ movements in history?

traditional roles have been obsolete for at least 50 years;

My point is that you're asking why all these things are categorised together while deliberately ignoring the commonality between them when it's pretty obvious when you look at what they have in common.

don’t cha find it rather odd that they would attempt to build a culture around it today?

No. Cultures tend to develop in groups that are often marginalised, and often across different groups who can be subject to similar forms of marginalisation, or marginalised for different reasons. It's actually very common.

The real question is why you think it's odd, and why you think it's any more specifically notable than any other culture.

 

[Kfox]

and i asked for evidence....In case you forgot

The evidence is the minute this happened, business immediately began posting trans allowed in the facilities of which they identify.

research your own posts, he said it.

I did research it; this happened where I live remember? The reason park officials said they didn't call the cops is because they had no way to prove he was not actual trans.

 

[Kfox]

SO what? This has nothing to do with what you posted and I responded to

First of all, beauty is not a social construct, it's a subjective opinion; just like funny, stupid, or boring. But even if it were, gender is being used by society in a way that affects everyone's lives; beauty is not.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

First of all, beauty is not a social construct, it's a subjective opinion; just like funny, stupid, or boring.

It can be both. There is always a degree to which we individually develop our own personal opinions and understandings of things like "beauty", but there are also ways in which society can influence what is broadly considered "beautiful", and that this influence can have a huge impact on broader, and individual, perceptions.

 

[Kfox]

no the trans person being maligned by the girl was a woman with female genitals

Then the accuser would be exposed and vilified as a liar because she claimed the person had male sex organs. If the person has female sex organs, that is enough to pass any glance test.

 

[Kfox]

And why do you think that women (including straight women) have historically lent more support to LGBTQ+ movements in history?

I don't/didn't know that was true. If it is, I don't know why.

My point is that you're asking why all these things are categorised together while deliberately ignoring the commonality between them when it's pretty obvious when you look at what they have in common.

Everybody has something in common. It is my view that these groups has more that is NOT in common than that iss.

No. Cultures tend to develop in groups that are often marginalised, and often across different groups who can be subject to similar forms of marginalisation, or marginalised for different reasons. It's actually very common.

The real question is why you think it's odd, and why you think it's any more specifically notable than any other culture.

As mentioned before, the LG&B is about who you are sexually attracted to, the T is about who you are; and there are plenty of LG&B who disagree with the T, especially when it comes to issues like the Lea Thomas story where males are competing in female sports. Attempting to lump them all together when there is disagreement like that sounds counter productive IMO

 

[Kfox]

It can be both. There is always a degree to which we individually develop our own personal opinions and understandings of things like "beauty", but there are also ways in which society can influence what is broadly considered "beautiful", and that this influence can have a huge impact on broader, and individual, perceptions.

Gender is used to decide which Prison a violent criminal is locked up in. Gender is used to decide which sports agency a professional athlete is allowed to play in. Gender is used to decide which public spaces citizens are allowed to enter. Gender is used to decide which contractors are funded by the government and which ones are not.
What is beauty used to decide?

 

[crossfire]

I have an honest question: eunuchs have often been put into service in women's only spaces for thousands of years. Society did not have a problem with this. (A eunuch being a biological male who has had his testes removed to cut testosterone production.)

Wouldn't a transwoman on antiandrogen hormones fit this description?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't/didn't know that was true. If it is, I don't know why.

Because women, too, have been historically marginalised by traditional and imposed constructions of gender.

Everybody has something in common. It is my view that these groups has more that is NOT in common than that iss.

Then your view is wrong. Perhaps you could try talking to them and asking them, rather than making assumptions as an outsider?

As mentioned before, the LG&B is about who you are sexually attracted to, the T is about who you are; and there are plenty of LG&B who disagree with the T, especially when it comes to issues like the Lea Thomas story where males are competing in female sports. Attempting to lump them all together when there is disagreement like that sounds counter productive IMO

Nobody is "lumping them together". They are treated as individual categories, but for the sake of specific social issues they suffer negative effects from the same fundamental source. Do you believe that trans people haven't been maligned in a very similar fashion to gay, lesbian or bisexual people?

Why do you care if they choose to be grouped together, anyway?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Gender is used to decide which Prison a violent criminal is locked up in. Gender is used to decide which sports agency a professional athlete is allowed to play in. Gender is used to decide which public spaces citizens are allowed to enter. Gender is used to decide which contractors are funded by the government and which ones are not.
What is beauty used to decide?

I don't believe I made any argument that beauty and gender have similar societal impact, I just addressed the fact that beauty is also both socially constructed and personal.

 

[Kfox]

Then your view is wrong. Perhaps you could try talking to them and asking them, rather than making assumptions as an outsider?

I have.

Nobody is "lumping them together". They are treated as individual categories, but for the sake of specific social issues they suffer negative effects from the same fundamental source.

Hence lumped together

Do you believe that trans people haven't been maligned in a very similar fashion to gay, lesbian or bisexual people?

Today for the most part, gay lesbian and bisexuals aren't marginalized; but trans are

Why do you care if they choose to be grouped together, anyway?

Not all of them choose to be lumped together; it's not like they voted on this stuff

 

[icehorse]

"Lots of posters here seem unable to discuss the "trans" topic without resorting to slurs and strawman arguments and such."

Indeed, and was I pointing at anyone specifically? I was not. IF the shoe doesn't fit...

 

[icehorse]

Not nearly as often as I (and other trans people here) get from you and those like you. We're not stupid. You can't directly misgender us but indirectly it's a bombardment of it along with how we've created a serious safety issue for women.
Never mind the fact its heavily and mostly men here doing that, while ciswomen are telling you they're ok with transwomen in women's spaces so there's a layer of misogyny as well.

You need to learn what "slur" means. And as for misgendering, no one "owns" our language, and I will not have my speech compelled. As for safety (and you forgot privacy and respect issues), many women have been harmed by trans women. So what's your threshold? How many assaults on women by trans women is too many? Where would you have us draw the line? As for the personal opinions of a few folks here on RF, I don't think ANY individual's "lived experience" is all that significant when the topic is public policy.

As for misogyny, OMFG TRAs are super misogynistic.

Since you brought all of this up, what are your thoughts on the Cass report and the WPATH files?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

At least Jerry Springer is no longer with us.
Thanx to Kodos....or was it Kang.

Yeah, I am glad that shows done with and no longer most people's exposure to "trans."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And as for misgendering, no one "owns" our language, and I will not have my speech compelled.

Then whg did you sign up for a website with rules that compell you, such as rules that prohibit you from deliberately and directly misgendering a member?
Your speech won't be compelled? You are in the wrong place with all these rules that do exactly that, and remember your being allowed here is a privilege, not a right.

You need to learn what "slur" means

We still get more here than you. Amd all we do is exist. You are one of the "usual suspects" making anti-trans/trans bashing threads.

many women have been harmed by trans women. So what's your threshold?

Except the examples are being brought up are men abusing the policy.

As for misogyny, OMFG TRAs are super misogynistic.

There you go again with your trans rights activist boogeyman bull****. You, and other men, keep telling women they need protected from trans. Men are less likely to be supportive and accepting of trans. But ciswomem here keep tell you and the men saying they are in danger and need protected they are actually ok with trans women. Amd women are more like to be accepting of trans.
So, yeah. It's good ole fashion patriarchal misogyny to think you must protect women from something they are saying they don't and are ok with.

Since you brought all of this up, what are your thoughts on the Cass report and the WPATH files?

They're basically as good as that edited video allegedly shows a Planned Parenthood executive arranging to sell baby parts to the "investigator."
What are your thoughts on actually learning stuff amd giving up the pseudointellectual garbage that makes it obvious you're on par with a Young Earth Creationist trying to talk about evolution and biology, getting everything wrong but insisting they are very knowledgeable of science.

 

[Argentbear]

The evidence is the minute this happened, business immediately began posting trans allowed in the facilities of which they identify.

The business didn't post anything and the fact that they had gender neutral facilities right there ready for the attention seeking man to use says it has been a policy of that business for a long long time

I did research it; this happened where I live remember? The reason park officials said they didn't call the cops is because they had no way to prove he was not actual trans.

Citation?

 

[Argentbear]

First of all, beauty is not a social construct, it's a subjective opinion; just like funny, stupid, or boring. But even if it were, gender is being used by society in a way that affects everyone's lives; beauty is not.

it is a social construct because what is considered attractive varies significantly across cultures, time periods, and social groups, and is shaped by societal norms and expectations rather than any objective quality.

For example in Ancient Greece a unibrow was considered sexy and women woudl glue tufts of boar hair to their foreheads to achieve the look. Yes, Helen of Troy would have had a unibrow

 

[Argentbear]

Then the accuser would be exposed and vilified as a liar because she claimed the person had male sex organs. If the person has female sex organs, that is enough to pass any glance test.

a week after Rebecca Phillips told the story of her "traumatization" Christine Woods appeared at the Santee city council meeting identifying she was many years post OP. Others also present at the day of the "traumatization" spoke saying there was "nothing to see" pun intended.
Ref and Ref

Rebecca changed her story to cover this revelation.

No she was not vilified at least by right wing media who continued to run her original claims. Those who hate latch onto stories like this as a means of promoting fear and discrimination

 

[Revoltingest]

Then whg did you sign up for a website with rules that compell you, such as rules that prohibit you from deliberately and directly misgendering a member?
Your speech won't be compelled? You are in the wrong place with all these rules that do exactly that, and remember your being allowed here is a privilege, not a right.

We still get more here than you. Amd all we do is exist. You are one of the "usual suspects" making anti-trans/trans bashing threads.

Except the examples are being brought up are men abusing the policy.

There you go again with your trans rights activist boogeyman bull****. You, and other men, keep telling women they need protected from trans. Men are less likely to be supportive and accepting of trans. But ciswomem here keep tell you and the men saying they are in danger and need protected they are actually ok with trans women. Amd women are more like to be accepting of trans.
So, yeah. It's good ole fashion patriarchal misogyny to think you must protect women from something they are saying they don't and are ok with.

They're basically as good as that edited video allegedly shows a Planned Parenthood executive arranging to sell baby parts to the "investigator."
What are your thoughts on actually learning stuff amd giving up the pseudointellectual garbage that makes it obvious you're on par with a Young Earth Creationist trying to talk about evolution and biology, getting everything wrong but insisting they are very knowledgeable of science.

I'll add that the problem of "needing protection from trans"
isn't just from men. TERF women are just as bigoted.