[LHP only] What is left hand path?

[Kapalika]

Do you understand the difference between Right Hand & Left Hand Paths?

I do, and I understand that the two are not mutually exclusive, and are relative terms that exist in reference to religious and cultural norms where it concerns rituals, rites and tradition. However you may disagree, due to your cultural perspective. Western LHP'ers tend to be strongly dualistic and so I can see why you would take that stand.

That in itself and the intense individuality and values that tend to run counter to religions like Christanity, Islam ect, but they don't run particularly any more counter than say Wicca or some other "RHP" occult practice. Really I guess I could make an arguement for how western LHP is a reaction to western RHP religions the same way that eastern LHP might contrast (but not react to) RHP in eastern religions, but the two are probably just as unrelated as related... mostly due to the fact that the term was appropriated a century ago with a very... interesting purpose, that was later repurposed by Satanists.

That aside, it's a little non-encompassing to only give the western perspective as legitimate, not that you have done that (actually I think I've seen you acknowledge the roots of the term LHP in the East), but seeing as this section is going to always be overly dominated by occultists it's perhaps a view that gets lost in the discussion a lot and told it's 'not real LHP', which is kind of insulting considering that it is the original LHP before the term was appropriated.

 

[EtuMalku]

I do, and I understand that the two are not mutually exclusive, and are relative terms that exist in reference to religious and cultural norms where it concerns rituals, rites and tradition. However you may disagree, due to your cultural perspective. Western LHP'ers tend to be strongly dualistic and so I can see why you would take that stand.

That in itself and the intense individuality and values that tend to run counter to religions like Christanity, Islam ect, but they don't run particularly any more counter than say Wicca or some other "RHP" occult practice. Really I guess I could make an arguement for how western LHP is a reaction to western RHP religions the same way that eastern LHP might contrast (but not react to) RHP in eastern religions, but the two are probably just as unrelated as related... mostly due to the fact that the term was appropriated a century ago with a very... interesting purpose, that was later repurposed by Satanists.

That aside, it's a little non-encompassing to only give the western perspective as legitimate, not that you have done that (actually I think I've seen you acknowledge the roots of the term LHP in the East), but seeing as this section is going to always be overly dominated by occultists it's perhaps a view that gets lost in the discussion a lot and told it's 'not real LHP', which is kind of insulting considering that it is the original LHP before the term was appropriated.

RHP tends to be completely dualistic where as WLHP is Isolate and understands everything as unique unto itself.

RHP teaches that these two categories are illusion that in reality the two are identical. The solution is to subordinate the "illusion" of self-awareness, of the Psyche, to the "reality" of God, Nature, etc.

LHP teaches that the two are capable of being perceived as distinct and are in fact distinct as a result of the existence of the Principle of Isolate Consciousness. By cultivating and nurturing this intelligence as a separate and unique quality we develop our own individually determined freedom / liberation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. eastern LHP might contrast (but not react to) RHP in eastern religions, but the two are probably just as unrelated as related ..

Beg to differ, they are closely related with exactly the same goals. Only the method is different.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If we were being purists it's a no-go however... Fate/predestination/previous/future lives all are problematic concepts for people whom seek apotheosis and believe in free will.

Not necessarily. You can the direction the river of fate guides you, or you can work up the strength to swim in another direction (or just walk if you're tall enough for your feet to touch bottom). Statistically, it was much more likely that I'd end up addicted to drug and having a criminal record rather than a college degree. But I transcended things like family upbringing and I've made it further than anyone else in the family. I also overcame social upbringing in many aspects, enough so that I even shed some bad pronunciation habits that people have here (such as pronouncing wash as warsh). God may have plans for me, but if I don't like them then they simply are not happening.

● The forces of the Objective Universe can be harnessed to one's personal Will

How can we define an Objective Universe when we can't even define the universe? Or even reality in a manner that doesn't inherently include the potential for misinterpretation?

Everytime we don't break down into a shooting match here we uphold the rules in a rhp way.

Not necessarily. Sometimes such things are avoided due to having focused your mind, being able to use good judgement and evaluate a situation, and foregoing the natural impulse of emotional outbursts and having instead a rational approach - some may not understand, but sometimes the self is better preserved and the Will better served by knowing which fights to pick up and which ones to ignore. Just as how breaking down into a shooting match can be an RHP act, especially in regards to those who believe they are carrying out divine justice as an extension/tool of their god.

 

[crossfire]

How can we define an Objective Universe when we can't even define the universe? Or even reality in a manner that doesn't inherently include the potential for misinterpretation?

You don't have to define the whole universe in order to replace a light bulb or flip the breaker when the lights don't turn on when you flip the switch. (Technology is one way of harnessing the forces of the Objective Universe to direct them to one's Will, such as having electric lights when it is dark.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't have to define the whole universe in order to replace a light bulb or flip the breaker when the lights don't turn on when you flip the switch. (Technology is one way of harnessing the forces of the Objective Universe to direct them to one's Will, such as having electric lights when it is dark.)

True. I was thinking much bigger than a light bulb.

 

[EtuMalku]

How can we define an Objective Universe when we can't even define the universe? Or even reality in a manner that doesn't inherently include the potential for misinterpretation?

It's not that difficult . . .
Objective Universe (OU): Things are as they "are." Time, space, matter, energy, etc.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's not that difficult . . .
Objective Universe (OU): Things are as they "are." Time, space, matter, energy, etc.

Time we don't have a good understanding of (nor do we perceive it as we define it), space we are still trying to figure out and define (especially in regards to gravity and questions concerning relativity and quantum mechanics), and there are still many unsolved mysteries with various forms of energy (and likely many we have yet to discover). We don't have nearly as much figured out as we like to think we do. Granted we have uncovered a fascinating and staggering amount about our world and universe, but we've only barely dusted off the tip of the ice berg. Even the big bang theory is falling under increasing scrutiny, and may potentially be replaced before too much longer.
http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning
(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

 

[1137]

It's very clear that there is at least some distinction, no matter how illusory or to what degree, between the universe in my mind and the universe we share, the objective and subjective, the some and the all.

 

[crossfire]

● The forces of the Objective Universe can be harnessed to one's personal Will

How can we define an Objective Universe when we can't even define the universe? Or even reality in a manner that doesn't inherently include the potential for misinterpretation?

Time we don't have a good understanding of (nor do we perceive it as we define it), space we are still trying to figure out and define (especially in regards to gravity and questions concerning relativity and quantum mechanics), and there are still many unsolved mysteries with various forms of energy (and likely many we have yet to discover). We don't have nearly as much figured out as we like to think we do. Granted we have uncovered a fascinating and staggering amount about our world and universe, but we've only barely dusted off the tip of the ice berg. Even the big bang theory is falling under increasing scrutiny, and may potentially be replaced before too much longer.
http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning
(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

Boiling it down: you don't have to trip yourself up with cosmology to understand and utilize cause-and-effect within your own realm of power and understanding. This applies to both objective realms and subjective realms.

 

[EtuMalku]

Time we don't have a good understanding of (nor do we perceive it as we define it), space we are still trying to figure out and define (especially in regards to gravity and questions concerning relativity and quantum mechanics), and there are still many unsolved mysteries with various forms of energy (and likely many we have yet to discover). We don't have nearly as much figured out as we like to think we do. Granted we have uncovered a fascinating and staggering amount about our world and universe, but we've only barely dusted off the tip of the ice berg. Even the big bang theory is falling under increasing scrutiny, and may potentially be replaced before too much longer.
http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning
(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

Nobody's asking for finite definitions, the Objective Universe is simply Objective Reality however you understand it.
One of the greatest, if not the greatest principle / law of the OU is Mathematics . . . it doesn't break down, it won't change, it simply IS

 

[Kapalika]

Really I guess I could make an argument for how western LHP is a reaction to western RHP religions the same way that eastern LHP might contrast (but not react to) RHP in eastern religions, but the two are probably just as unrelated as related...

Beg to differ, they are closely related with exactly the same goals. Only the method is different.

I think you misunderstood my statement;

I'm saying that western and eastern LHP are probably just as unrelated as related. I was comparing the western and eastern LHP, not the eastern LHP and RHP.

Eastern LHP contrasts, rather than reacts to eastern RHP because it isn't in opposition to it in terms of goals and purpose, but only in method and practice.

I apologize for not wording my post in a more clear manner.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oh, Mandi, you don't need to be so apologetic. If I misunderstood, it was my fault.

No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning
(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

Do we need Gods and Godesses now?

 

[1137]

There's is only one left hand and one right hand path. A tradition based around heterodoxy still relies on the order of the RHP. They need values, norms, traditions, etc to go against. For the eastern "lhp" they are still relying on the external culture, they even share the goal of dissolution. The true left hand path, as brought forth by the west, practices what is helpful and useful, irrelevant of cultural norms. If the practitioner does something heterodox, it is because the have the Desire, not because culture will be shocked.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Objective Reality however you understand it.

What we understand to be reality may not be objective, however. Emotions can cloud, previous experiences can distort, and even just our own minds can twist reality into something it's not. You don't have to be schizophrenic or psychotic, all you have to have is having a functioning brain and it's guaranteed there will be times your "reality" isn't really reality. Yes, we can know something, but we can't know everything or assume our interpretations are always correct.

law of the OU is Mathematics . . . it doesn't break down, it won't change, it simply IS

Mathematics doesn't change, but it can only go as far as our knowledge allows it. We can objectively describe things through math (I personally find comfort and security in statistics and other objective facts), but we are still so far away from being able to claim we know the universe in its objective state of being.

 

[EtuMalku]

What we understand to be reality may not be objective, however. Emotions can cloud, previous experiences can distort, and even just our own minds can twist reality into something it's not. You don't have to be schizophrenic or psychotic, all you have to have is having a functioning brain and it's guaranteed there will be times your "reality" isn't really reality. Yes, we can know something, but we can't know everything or assume our interpretations are always correct.

Mathematics doesn't change, but it can only go as far as our knowledge allows it. We can objectively describe things through math (I personally find comfort and security in statistics and other objective facts), but we are still so far away from being able to claim we know the universe in its objective state of being.

In both of your replies you seem to be implying there is more to the OU than simply it being an unintelligent mechanism. Whether we have or have not the ability towards further sensual awareness has in no way any affect on what the OU is . . . a mechanistic process.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Time we don't have a good understanding of (nor do we perceive it as we define it), space we are still trying to figure out and define (especially in regards to gravity and questions concerning relativity and quantum mechanics), and there are still many unsolved mysteries with various forms of energy (and likely many we have yet to discover). We don't have nearly as much figured out as we like to think we do. Granted we have uncovered a fascinating and staggering amount about our world and universe, but we've only barely dusted off the tip of the ice berg. Even the big bang theory is falling under increasing scrutiny, and may potentially be replaced before too much longer.
http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning
(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

Not pleasant to disagree,
however
anything based on the theories of relativity
is based on hearsay which is at its core: illogical, but popular.

This is the very essence of the Right-hand:
To follow without authentic analysis,
to be unable to disagree with the illusionary popular illogical ideas.

The left-hand often uses the method of internal logical consistency to quickly and easily
evaluate the authenticity of a seemingly complex idea.


Relativity is false:
http://www.flight-light-and-spin.com/relativity-revised.htm

First understand this in order to even begin to approach cosmology.

 

[Kapalika]

There's is only one left hand and one right hand path. A tradition based around heterodoxy still relies on the order of the RHP. They need values, norms, traditions, etc to go against. For the eastern "lhp" they are still relying on the external culture, they even share the goal of dissolution. The true left hand path, as brought forth by the west, practices what is helpful and useful, irrelevant of cultural norms. If the practitioner does something heterodox, it is because the have the Desire, not because culture will be shocked.

Your statements are just simply false. Western LHP is inherently about defying religious norms and western LHP was born out of Satanism, which in itself was defying the cultural norms of the time. You don't know what you are talking about.

It isn't up to you to say who's path is the "real" path of any one religion, least of all the Left Hand Path which many people practice in different ways and have different personal takes on. I have been accepting, I have been giving your cultural (mis?)appropriation room to have it's own life and then you have the audacity to turn around and say that the centuries of the original Left Hand Path is not the "real" one?!

 

[Kapalika]

Perhaps it doesn't occur to people here... but the eastern LHP can very well exalt the individual to godhood... that dissolution is dissolving into what was really you all along. How is that so radically different from the western LHP concept?

 

[1137]

Your statements are just simply false. Western LHP is inherently about defying religious norms and western LHP was born out of Satanism, which in itself was defying the cultural norms of the time. You don't know what you are talking about.

It isn't up to you to say who's path is the "real" path of any one religion, least of all the Left Hand Path which many people practice in different ways and have different personal takes on. I have been accepting, I have been giving your cultural (mis?)appropriation room to have it's own life and then you have the audacity to turn around and say that the centuries of the original Left Hand Path is not the "real" one?!

I was not implying that the WLHP was the "right" path, simply that it is the other side of the same coin. The eastern lhp and rhp, based on the spiritual practices of modern humanity, are the same exact side of one coin. The east left and right, and the west right, are all the same path. They are based around the cultural values and union with god. You're right that Laveyan Satanism was caught somewhere between the left and right, which is why group like the Temple of Set were first founded.

Perhaps it doesn't occur to people here... but the eastern LHP can very well exalt the individual to godhood... that dissolution is dissolving into what was really you all along. How is that so radically different from the western LHP concept?

Dissolution is a right hand path goal, the most basic one. The left hand path practitioner seeks to avoid such dissolution at all costs. The goals are nothing other than radically different.