Liberals Face Division Over Israel's Human Rights Violations

[Bthoth]

Nope because it isn't occupation under international law.

Amnesty International
The unlawful appropriation of property by an occupying power amounts to “pillage”, which is prohibited by both the Hague Regulations and Fourth Geneva Convention and is a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and many national laws.Jan 30, 2019
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/c...ion of property,Court and many national laws.

Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law​

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/c...ion of property,Court and many national laws.
Then UN..

Part II – The nature of belligerent occupation

Part II of the study provides a thematic introduction to the legal nature of belligerent occupation and the divergent approach of Israel to the occupation of Palestine. In doing so, it broadly examines the principles underpinning the laws governing belligerent occupation, presents the theory of belligerent occupation as illegal under the jus bello, and highlights international practice and jurisprudence classifying belligerent occupations as illegal under the jus ad bellum. Further, the study introduces the central tenets of Israel’s official policies and positions on the nature of the belligerent occupation of Palestine, its settlement enterprise and its annexation of Palestinian territory.

From "Occupied Territories" to "Disputed Territories," by Dore Gold

From 'Occupied Territories' to 'Disputed Territories,' by Dore Gold

www.jcpa.org

Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org › uploads › 2022/02

PDF

Page 1. CRUEL SYSTEM OF DOMINATION AND. CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. ISRAEL'S APARTHEID. AGAINST PALESTINIANS.









https://mobile.twitter.com/ahramonline/status/1723358525231935747
https://twitter.com/cyclingkev

300,000 march against Israel in London on Armistice Day, demand Gaza ceasefire | The Times of Israel
Support

 

[Bthoth]

Israel doesn't occupy Arab land.

Israel exists in the arab region of the world.

According to legal experts, not anonymous keyboard jockeys.

International legal opinions. At present, based on the result of numerous UN resolutions that cite Article 49 of the Geneva Convention, the consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law.

ah, yes...the opinions of the world...

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/gaza-news/article-

Joke post is not legal opinions. ...isdom says the problem is Israel. It’s wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

Dissent in the Biden administration....

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/biden-gaza-hamas-policy-state-department-memo

Excerpted....
An internal State Department dissent memo accuses President Biden of "spreading misinformation" on the Israel-Hamas war and alleges that Israel is committing "war crimes" in Gaza, according to a copy of the memo obtained by Axios.

Why it matters: The scathing five-page memo — organized by a junior diplomat who has suggested on social media that Biden's support of Israel has made him "complicit in genocide" in Gaza — offers a rare look at the raw divisions within the Biden administration over the Israel-Hamas war.

• The memo — signed by 100 State Department and USAID employees — urges senior U.S. officials to reassess their policy toward Israel and demand a ceasefire in Gaza, where more than 11,000 Palestinians have been killed in the war, according to Gaza's Hamas-controlled health ministry.
• Some of the memo's language echoes that of progressive activists in the U.S., whose anger and protests over Biden's handling of the war have rippled through the Democratic Party — and created a new challenge for the president's 2024 campaign.
• Without offering a specific example, the memo accuses Biden of "spreading misinformation in his Oct. 10 speech" supporting Israel, one of the signature addresses of his presidency.
• The memo also said that "we strongly recommend that the (U.S. government) advocate for the release of hostages by both Hamas and (Israel)" — citing the "thousands" of Palestinians being held in Israel, including those "without charge."

:
The intrigue: It's unclear how many dissent memos have been filed within the State Department during the Israel-Hamas war. Politico reported last week on a memo that called for the U.S. to "publicly criticize Israel's violations of international norms."

 

[rosends]

Israel exists in the arab region of the world.

The "Arab region"? You mean the area which exists as a result of Arab colonialism and conquest?

Joke post is not legal opinions.

no joke

Believing Israeli accounts of Oct. 7 makes you a 'war criminal,' ex-UK MP says

Former MP George Galloway claimed that only one baby was killed on October 7 and there was no evidence that it was Hamas terrorists that committed the murder.

www.jpost.com

 

[Bthoth]

The "Arab region"? You mean the area which exists as a result of Arab colonialism and conquest?

the levant was egypts New Kingdom.

Which arabs (nomadic tribe) is claimed to have taken the land as promised land?

no joke

the joke post is JPost... they are the people that claimed Tel Aviv is the LBGT capital of the world. Is that holy land to you or just the israelis preferred tourist?

Believing Israeli accounts of Oct. 7 makes you a 'war criminal,' ex-UK MP says

Former MP George Galloway claimed that only one baby was killed on October 7 and there was no evidence that it was Hamas terrorists that committed the murder.

www.jpost.com

10/7 is/was an atrocity. There is no debate about that, but nothing will undo the half century of oppression and now apartheid. Just as the illegal occupation of palestinian lands as expressed in the UN and international courts, is still illegal.

Nothing that HAMAS can do warrants israel having the right to occupy lands of palestinians.

Now if you took in the lands and made the people citizens and had equal voting rights, all 5 million of them, then that is not illegal.

but israel cannot allow the palesitnians all of them have equal voting rights and citizenship because the label of Jewish state would no longer exist.

Just as the land grab of 1967 including the taking of jerusalem from the international community must be addressed.

Having religious value and stories about a messiah coming to save the day, is not a reason to be so belligerent and obtuse.

israel has oppressed millions for decades and trying to genocide the people will just create more monsters that israel will not be able to stop.

Eventually israel will fall, if the arrogant nature and what you are defending is not stopped.

Again, HAMAS was wrong....... agreed. But israel DOES NOT represent Jews, Judaism or G-d and until that narrative of being special over all mankind is removed, many people will continue to break the laws of civil society to defend that apartheid of nonsense.

End the rubbish as the prophecy of tanakh is clear......... Ezek 22. It will not end well.

 

[Heyo]

It is actually "We have studied the laws of war and are acting accordingly" and your response is "I don't agree with your conclusion so I'll tolls the whole thing out." Brilliant approach.

Israel doesn't occupy Arab land.

Israel's actions in this conflict are, unlike Hamas', in line with the laws of war.

According to legal experts, not anonymous keyboard jockeys.

Should not a legal question be decided by a court?
Not the accused, not the accuser, not "legal experts" or anonymous keyboard jockeys but a judge?

Israel doesn't seem to think so as it hasn't ratified the Rome statute. Why not?

 

[rosends]

Should not a legal question be decided by a court?

That's not a really comprehensive question. Legal questions, when raised and brought in front of a court can be decided by courts. Until then, they can be opined upon by experts and lay people but the opinions of the lay people are less useful. We assess events by our understanding of the law often. A guy driving on the road and we look and say "he's speeding" even if there are no police around or the local police don't do anything because we look at the legal definition of speeding, assess the facts and compare the behavior to the standard.

Not the accused, not the accuser, not "legal experts" or anonymous keyboard jockeys but a judge?

Only if a case is brought before a judge. Until then, all sorts of people can chime in with explanations and understandings.

Israel doesn't seem to think so as it hasn't ratified the Rome statute. Why not?

Here

https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1367&context=gjicl

the stuff you are looking for is on about page 600.
for more explanation

https://asp.icc-cpi.int/sites/asp/files/NR/rdonlyres/D3C77FA6-9DEE-45B1-ACC0-B41706BB41E5/281910/BPIsraelPalestineandtheICCMay2011.pdf

 

[Bthoth]

Should not a legal question be decided by a court?
Not the accused, not the accuser, not "legal experts" or anonymous keyboard jockeys but a judge?

Israel doesn't seem to think so as it hasn't ratified the Rome statute. Why not?

A neutral oversight that can maintain empathy for all sides.

Some may call that ultimate judge a god. Some may call it a court of law.

How to create an environment that all can apply and trust the ruling?

 

[Heyo]

That's not a really comprehensive question. Legal questions, when raised and brought in front of a court can be decided by courts. Until then, they can be opined upon by experts and lay people but the opinions of the lay people are less useful.

So, we have your opinion, a layman's opinion, and the claim that some unnamed "experts" share your opinion. So, basically, hot air.

Here

https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1367&context=gjicl

the stuff you are looking for is on about page 600.
for more explanation

https://asp.icc-cpi.int/sites/asp/files/NR/rdonlyres/D3C77FA6-9DEE-45B1-ACC0-B41706BB41E5/281910/BPIsraelPalestineandtheICCMay2011.pdf

So, Israel didn't join the Rome statute in knowledge that it would be, most likely, convicted of war crimes. Israel has the right to not join but to me that looks like a confession of guilt and avoiding to take responsibility.

 

[rosends]

So, we have your opinion, a layman's opinion, and the claim that some unnamed "experts" share your opinion. So, basically, hot air.

You don't have my opinion -- you have the opinions of legal experts about the definition of terms, plus the cited texts that define the terms.
Here's a name

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

So, Israel didn't join the Rome statute in knowledge that it would be, most likely, convicted of war crimes. Israel has the right to not join but to me that looks like a confession of guilt and avoiding to take responsibility.

Then you haven't read any of the information I provided and have decided that what "looks to you" must be a truth.

 

[Revoltingest]

You don't have my opinion -- you have the opinions of legal experts about the definition of terms, plus the cited texts that define the terms.
Here's a name

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

That guy again.
We have dueling experts making opposite claims
about Israel's war crimes. How can this be?
Many of the "experts" aren't neutral. Those in
USA & Israel deny war crimes. Those from the
UN & other countries recognize war crimes.

MSN

Excerpted...
Both Hamas and Israel have committed war crimes in the past month, the United Nations human rights chief said, as thousands of Palestinians fled south amid Israel’s intensifying offensive against the Islamist militant group.

Spencer is a former US military officer who still
works for the US military. So we could reasonably
expect him to be biased in favor of official US
foreign policy, ie, fervent support of Israel, &
denial of its human rights violations, & war crimes.
It would explain his "analysis", which reads like an
Israeli press release. It doesn't address the massacres
& widespread destruction perpetrated in preference
of narrowly focused attacks on Hamas.

 

[rosends]

That guy again.
We have dueling experts making opposite claims
about Israel's war crimes. How can this be?
Many of the "experts" aren't neutral. Those in
USA & Israel deny war crimes. Those from the
UN & other countries recognize war crimes.

MSN

Excerpted...
Both Hamas and Israel have committed war crimes in the past month, the United Nations human rights chief said, as thousands of Palestinians fled south amid Israel’s intensifying offensive against the Islamist militant group.

Spencer is a former US military officer who still
works for the US military. So we could reasonably
expect him to be biased in favor of official US
foreign policy, ie, fervent support of Israel, &
denial of its human rights violations, & war crimes.
It would explain his "analysis", which reads like an
Israeli press release. It doesn't address the massacres
& widespread destruction perpetrated in preference
of narrowly focused attacks on Hamas.

ah, so I was told I had unnamed eperts. Then I gave an expert and am told that he is biased.
Here's another, no doubt, biased expert

Retired Army legal expert blasts AOC's accusations against Israel for committing 'war crimes'

Ret. Army Lt. Col. Geoffrey S. Corn blasts comments from Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., in which she accused Israel of committing war crimes.

www.foxnews.com

I like how your response is to quote not a legal expert but someone from the UN (someone who said “any use by Palestinian armed groups of civilians and civilian objects to shield themselves from attack is in contravention of the laws of war"). The UN?

Antisemitism as Human Rights at the UN

Human Rights Voices

www.humanrightsvoices.org

UPDATED: UN reactions to Hamas massacre and its aftermath - UN Watch

UN Officials and Bodies React to October 2023 Hamas Massacre & Aftermath Below is a brief analysis of the statements published to date by UN officials and bodies concerning Hamas’s barbaric massacre against Israeli civilians which began on the morning of October 7, 2023 and its aftermath. It is...

unwatch.org

 

[Revoltingest]

ah, so I was told I had unnamed eperts. Then I gave an expert and am told that he is biased.
Here's another, no doubt, biased expert

Read my post again.
It's untrue that I said he's "unnamed".
I criticized his lack of analysis backing up his claims.
And I explained that it stems from his bias towards
USA foreign policy.

 

[Heyo]

ah, so I was told I had unnamed eperts.

Which was true at the time, now you have named an expert.

Then I gave an expert and am told that he is biased.

Not only is he biased but he also isn't an expert on international law. He's an expert on urban warfare.

I like how your response is to quote not a legal expert but someone from the UN

Who at least has studied law (and thus is a legal expert) unlike your expert.

 

[rosends]

Not only is he biased but he also isn't an expert on international law. He's an expert on urban warfare.

So he teaches military strategy and has experience on the battlefield but he doesn't know international law? And you know this how?

Who at least has studied law (and thus is a legal expert) unlike your expert.

Anyone who studied law is a legal expert? He seems to know about human rights law and refugee law. Nothing noted about laws of warfare.

Opinion: Hamas has committed war crimes, but Israel is complying with international law

Those who accuse Israel of disproportionality should familiarize themselves with the rules of war

nationalpost.com

What International Law Has to Say About the Israel-Hamas War

Hamas’s attack on Israel and the ensuing war in the Gaza Strip raise a host of questions about the combatants’ legal obligations.

www.cfr.org

Why Israel's siege of Gaza is legal under international law

As the humanitarian cost of Israel's siege of Gaza materializes, it has drawn the ire of many. But the siege does not violate international law.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Revoltingest]

So he teaches military strategy and has experience on the battlefield but he doesn't know international law? And you know this how?

Anyone who studied law is a legal expert? He seems to know about human rights law and refugee law. Nothing noted about laws of warfare.

Opinion: Hamas has committed war crimes, but Israel is complying with international law

Those who accuse Israel of disproportionality should familiarize themselves with the rules of war

nationalpost.com

What International Law Has to Say About the Israel-Hamas War

Hamas’s attack on Israel and the ensuing war in the Gaza Strip raise a host of questions about the combatants’ legal obligations.

www.cfr.org

Why Israel's siege of Gaza is legal under international law

As the humanitarian cost of Israel's siege of Gaza materializes, it has drawn the ire of many. But the siege does not violate international law.

www.usatoday.com

Qualifications can't make a bad analysis cromulent.

 

[rosends]

Qualifications can't make a bad analysis cromulent.

and a lack of qualifications doesn't embiggen knowledge.