Liberals Face Division Over Israel's Human Rights Violations

[Revoltingest]

I have seen reports of settler violence, and arrests and prosecution. Have Hamas officials done anything to those who perpetrated violence against Israel?

I also see that settler violence towards Palestinians
is ignored by Israel military (BBC), & that punishment
is scarce or minimal (10 cent fine).
No one can expect Israel to investigate itself, & find
anything other than exculpation & excuse.

Israel respecting Muslim lives?
Balderdash.

As war rages in Gaza, Israeli settlers drive a new wave of anti-Palestinian violence

At least 132 Palestinians have been killed by security forces and settlers in the past three weeks, according to the U.N. In 2022, 158 Palestinians were killed there.

www.nbcnews.com

Nor for Muslim property.

Who are Israeli settlers, and why do they live on Palestinian lands?

As many as 700,000 Israeli settlers are living illegally in the occupied West Bank as settler violence surges.

www.aljazeera.com

Also....

MSN

 

[The Hammer]

Overall, one consistent thread among the left is that, for the most part, they're on the side of those whom they see as oppressed or victims of tyranny and other abuses of power.

Which is why they unfortunately are the only decent choice atm.

 

[Revoltingest]

This will absolutely be the case as I see it.

Time to plan for an out of the US, things will get much worse with a 24-28 DJT term.

Under Trump, I'd expect retribution for Palestinian
advocates protesting to be even worse than under
Biden. Just call them "terrorists", & re-enact the
Kent State massacre.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/can-trump-use-military-to-stop-protests-insurrection-act/2020/06/01/c3724380-a46b-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html

 

[Bthoth]

That's another mistake you make. Because the word "Jewish" is in the site name, you assume it is a religious site. Clearly you haven't taken a look at it and at all the sources it cites.

Judaism, jewish is a religious designation. Keep it simple.

"The genius of israel' A new book, tries to convey the collective teaching. Referring to 'we' or "us' rather than 'i'.

Brainwashing the population. People in a democracy are individuals thinking for themselves, emancipated from a central authority. The very premise of 'exodus' from egyptian rule (moses). enable the population to understand how to be good all by themselves, without a central authority.

Some of the rubbish that you replied I am just eliminating.

Many Arabs still live in Jerusalem.

You mean semitic people. Arab is a semitic term.

Can you show me statistics that explains that the majority of the 2.2 million people in Gaza used to live in Jerusalem and were forced out?

The foundational events of the Nakba took place during and shortly after the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army

And none of that proves that there is any occupation. Nice try though.

The taking of jerusalem is proof positive of illegal occupation

I have seen reports of settler violence, and arrests and prosecution. Have Hamas officials done anything to those who perpetrated violence against Israel?

The israelis have decades and decades of violence against palestinians. The settlers and HAMAS are a new set of terrorist.

Gosh, I hope Hamas stops soon!

So do I.

I know what the word means, and I know that Israel isn't an apartheid state specifically because I know what the word means.


So you don't know what the word means...got it.

The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com › News › Israel



Jan 27, 2021 — The paper argues that the Israeli regime of apartheid rests on four pillars: citizenship, land, freedom of movement, and political participation ..

Oct 20, 2023 — Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have stated that Israel's policies toward Palestine amount to apartheid, sparking international
Aug 11, 2023 — “There cannot be democracy for Jews in Israel as long as Palestinians live under a regime of apartheid, as Israeli legal experts have described ...

Israel is an 'apartheid state', 25 percent of US Jewish voters ...​

Middle East Eye
https://www.middleeasteye.net › news › israel-palestin...



Jul 13, 2021 — Human Rights Watch and B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, have accused Israel of practising apartheid against Palestinians -

Jewish Electorate Institute
https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org › mondoweis...



Jul 13, 2021 — By Michael Arria. A new poll of Jewish voters in the United States found that a quarter of them believe Israel is an apartheid state



I will trust American Jews over israel or you, every day of the week. Why? The integrity of Jews supersedes israelis

 

[The Hammer]

Under Trump, I'd expect retribution for Palestinian
advocates protesting to be even worse than under
Biden. Just call them "terrorists", & re-enact the
Kent State massacre.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/can-trump-use-military-to-stop-protests-insurrection-act/2020/06/01/c3724380-a46b-11ea-b473-04905b1af82b_story.html

I expect a lot more retribution then just that.

DJTs platform is based solely around revenge and retribution. On all people's and fronts that don't agree with him.

Trump's unprecedented campaign pitch: Elect me to be your revenge on the government

Donald Trump declared to his supporters earlier this year that "I am your retribution" and his base's appetite for that promised vengeance hasn't waned

www.google.com

 

[Revoltingest]

I expect a lot more retribution then just that.

DJTs platform is based solely around revenge and retribution. On all people's and fronts that don't agree with him.

Trump's unprecedented campaign pitch: Elect me to be your revenge on the government

Donald Trump declared to his supporters earlier this year that "I am your retribution" and his base's appetite for that promised vengeance hasn't waned

www.google.com

His Christian base sure does love vengeance.
This Bible of theirs sounds like a terrorist screed.

 

[The Hammer]

His Christian base sure does love vengeance.
This Bible of theirs sounds like a terrorist screed.

Almost any belief or political ideology can be pushed to that extreme it seems. Sadly.

Level heads should prevail. But I lost my optimism several lifetimes ago.

 

[rosends]

Judaism, jewish is a religious designation. Keep it simple.

Actually, it is more than that but it is ok if you don't understand that. I'll skip the parts of your response that make no sense.

You mean semitic people. Arab is a semitic term.

No, I mean Arabs. Arabs are a subset of the semitic peoples family.

The foundational events of the Nakba took place during and shortly after the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army

Not only is that historically inaccurate, but, fun fun, it doesn't address what I challenged you on. So, good work not answering!

The taking of jerusalem is proof positive of illegal occupation

Nope. Was it occupied when it was held by Jordan?

The israelis have decades and decades of violence against palestinians. The settlers and HAMAS are a new set of terrorist.

Great. Not what I asked. Thanks for your opinion, though.

So do I.

The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com › News › Israel



Jan 27, 2021 — The paper argues that the Israeli regime of apartheid rests on four pillars: citizenship, land, freedom of movement, and political participation ..

Oct 20, 2023 — Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have stated that Israel's policies toward Palestine amount to apartheid, sparking international
Aug 11, 2023 — “There cannot be democracy for Jews in Israel as long as Palestinians live under a regime of apartheid, as Israeli legal experts have described ...

Israel is an 'apartheid state', 25 percent of US Jewish voters ...​

Middle East Eye
https://www.middleeasteye.net › news › israel-palestin...



Jul 13, 2021 — Human Rights Watch and B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, have accused Israel of practising apartheid against Palestinians -

Jewish Electorate Institute
https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org › mondoweis...



Jul 13, 2021 — By Michael Arria. A new poll of Jewish voters in the United States found that a quarter of them believe Israel is an apartheid state



I will trust American Jews over israel or you, every day of the week. Why? The integrity of Jews supersedes israelis

That's hilarious. You mined articles that report opinions, accusations and beliefs in response to my presenting legal arguments

Why Allegations that Israel Is An 'Apartheid' State Are False under International Law

One of the most highly charged accusations aimed at the State of Israel today is that Israel is an “apartheid” State that engages in widespread, state-sanctione

papers.ssrn.com

I like how you close off asaying that you "will trust American Jews over israel or you". This just shows your ignorance even more.

 

[rosends]

OK, but do you recognize how your response did not address what I pointed out?

I also see that settler violence towards Palestinians
is ignored by Israel military (BBC), & that punishment
is scarce or minimal (10 cent fine).
No one can expect Israel to investigate itself, & find
anything other than exculpation & excuse.

Israel respecting Muslim lives?
Balderdash.

As war rages in Gaza, Israeli settlers drive a new wave of anti-Palestinian violence

At least 132 Palestinians have been killed by security forces and settlers in the past three weeks, according to the U.N. In 2022, 158 Palestinians were killed there.

www.nbcnews.com

Nor for Muslim property.

Who are Israeli settlers, and why do they live on Palestinian lands?

As many as 700,000 Israeli settlers are living illegally in the occupied West Bank as settler violence surges.

www.aljazeera.com

Also....

MSN

 

[David1967]

We LOVE the idea of obliterating the "enemy" even if we got the wrong enemy.

And even if the enemy we're "obliterating" was created by us.

 

[Revoltingest]

OK, but do you recognize how your response did not address what I pointed out?

I addressed your post, except for the rhetorical question.

 

[rosends]

I addressed your post, except for the rhetorical question.

No, you started talking about something which didn't address what I asked. I'm not sure why you decided my question was rhetorical. I mean, I was the one asking it and when I asked it, it wasn't rhetorical. Must be an internet thing.

 

[Bthoth]

Actually, it is more than that

Judaism is a religion. It's why it lasted so long. The integrity is taught to their children and conveyed from generation to generation

No, I mean Arabs. Arabs are a subset of the semitic peoples family.

Semitic is a language group.

Not only is that historically inaccurate,

So you deny that the refugees of GAZA are from palestine? They were put into gaza by force and fenced in by israel.

Nope. Was it occupied when it was held by Jordan?

Jerusalem is not israel per international law and the majority of the global countries represented at the UN.

Just because the USA will not force israel to back off, does not make israel right?

That's hilarious. You mined articles that report opinions, accusations and beliefs in response to my presenting legal arguments

Are you upset that Jews even call israel an apartheid?
The separation of people by force is what the fencing within the cities are for. Concentration camp GAZA exists because of bigotry.

I like how you close off asaying that you "will trust American Jews over israel or you".

You are closed minded and have a sense of owning what is true.
I trust Jews. When you meet a Jew and experience the integrity, you will see why I trust Jews.

If you do not like honest people because they do not accept your narrative. No problem, per the Jewish prophecy, the dross end up gone.

 

[rosends]

Judaism is a religion. It's why it lasted so long. The integrity is taught to their children and conveyed from generation to generation

Calling it a religion strips it of all sorts of other stuff. And, of course, it isn't exactly the word from the earlier post, but OK.

Semitic is a language group.

So then Arabs aren't semitic. Great, thanks.

So you deny that the refugees of GAZA are from palestine? They were put into gaza by force and fenced in by israel.

I deny that you have presented any actual information supporting your claim. I note that you disapprove of national borders. I'll alert all the countries of the world that they can't have border alls or fencs or anything like that because you think it turns neighboring areas into prisons.

Jerusalem is not israel per international law and the majority of the global countries represented at the UN.

It is the capital of Israel. You may not like that, but there you go. And I note that you didn't answer my question.

Are you upset that Jews even call israel an apartheid?

I don't like ignorance. Are you happy that people use a word incorrectly?

The separation of people by force is what the fencing within the cities are for. Concentration camp GAZA exists because of bigotry.

Gaza as an Arab locale exists because Israel forcibly removed the Israeli population. Did you protest that?

You are closed minded and have a sense of owning what is true.

You are ignorant and have no idea what you are talking about.

I trust Jews. When you meet a Jew and experience the integrity, you will see why I trust Jews.

You are making less and less sense.

If you do not like honest people because they do not accept your narrative. No problem, per the Jewish prophecy, the dross end up gone.

Good thing I had "dross" on my Bthoth bingo card!

 

[PureX]

This thread is horribly mislabeled as liberals are no more or less divided about Israel now than they ever were. Nor are they any more divided about it than conservatives are, or have been.

And both groups have long been divided about Israel for much the same reason: that we spend far too much taxpayer money on arming and aiding Israel and far too much attention and energy on justifying Israel's behavior and on hating it's enemies.

Lots of Americans have long been sick and tired of paying for Israel's massive military while so many of our own people are struggling.

 

[PureX]

Hmmm ... some sort of server problems.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, you started talking about something which didn't address what I asked. I'm not sure why you decided my question was rhetorical. I mean, I was the one asking it and when I asked it, it wasn't rhetorical. Must be an internet thing.

It appeared to be rhetorical because the answer
was obvious, & seems to be a counter to my post.
"Have Hamas officials done anything to those
who perpetrated violence against Israel?"

Hamas obviously wouldn't sanction their
fighters who carried out an attack as planned.
This appeared to be justification for Israel
taking no action against settlers & soldiers
who commit crimes that Israel's government
would call crimes.

Tis clear that you & give different weight to
crimes by Hamas vs crimes by Israel. I wonder
if you even believe that Israel commits them?

 

[Bthoth]

Calling it a religion strips it of all sorts of other stuff.

Are you upset that the truth removes the bigotry that carried over from the egyptians, of being chosen by god to rule.

So then Arabs aren't semitic. Great, thanks.

The semitic language is what arabs speak. Arabs in the semitic language means nomads.

I deny that you have presented any actual information supporting your claim. I note that you disapprove of national borders.

Gaza is within the borders of israel since they took the sinai from egypt. The nabka is well documented

""The Nakba, which means “catastrophe” in Arabic, refers to the mass displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Before the Nakba, Palestine was a multi-ethnic and multi-cultural society.""

I'll alert all the countries of the world that they can't have border alls or fencs or anything like that because you think it turns neighboring areas into prisons.

""

Gaza: Israel’s ‘Open-Air Prison’""​

Human rights watch...https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

"The closure has devastated the economy in Gaza, contributed to fragmentation of the Palestinian people, and forms part of Israeli authorities’ crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution against millions of Palestinians."

It is the capital of Israel.

Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms​

14 Delegations in Favour of Resolution 2334 (2016) as United States Abstains​

"Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity,"

Good thing I had "dross" on my Bthoth bingo card!

17 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are

"‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem

""so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her. ""


If you had any idea about the jewish tanakh, you would already know the warnings and eventual outcome.

I've been trying to stop the mess for decades but too many bigots that expect to control the city of blood


""2 “Son of man, will you judge her? Will you judge this city of bloodshed? Then confront her with all her detestable practices ""

 

[rosends]

It appeared to be rhetorical because the answer
was obvious, & seems to be a counter to my post.

if it is a counter to your post then you, I would think, should be addressing something which addresses your post. If the answer is obvious to you then it is clearly not rhetorical

Hamas obviously wouldn't sanction their
fighters who carried out an attack as planned.

So there have been no equivalent governmental moves to hold the murderers accountable.

This appeared to be justification for Israel
taking no action against settlers & soldiers
who commit crimes that Israel's government
would call crimes.

Then you misread. Israel has a legal system which pursues justice, and it has organizations like Yesh Din which focus on equity and holding Israelis accountable for their crimes against others. If there is no equivalent NGO which advocates for similar justice in Gaza then that speaks for itself.

Tis clear that you & give different weight to
crimes by Hamas vs crimes by Israel. I wonder
if you even believe that Israel commits them?

That's a fair thing to wonder. It just so happens that I see many crimes committed by Israelis, including both run of the mill civilians and people who think that, clothed in a uniform, one can do whatever he or she wants. I have also seen behavior that is morally repugnant though it runs afoul of no specific law and I have seen behavior that is within the parameters of modern warfare and within the additional moral strictures the IDF imposes on its soldiers.

I had a long chat with my son-in-law about the rules of shooting someone who is throwing a molotov cocktail at you. Much like the fumble/incomplete pass rule in football, before a soldier shoots, the attackers arm has to be moving forward in a throwing motion. Even for a second or third cocktail. I hope that sometimes, he chooses not to wait until the bomb is moving forward when his or others' lives are on the line.

 

[Revoltingest]

Calling it a religion strips it of all sorts of other stuff. And, of course, it isn't exactly the word from the earlier post, but OK.

Most the Jews I know, including family are atheists.
But Judaism functions as religion because they go
thru the same motions, & practice many of the beliefs
& traditions...even making the pilgrimage to live on a
kibbutz. (Some hard core stuff, eh.) This includes (for
most) tacit support for Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
So I find that calling it a religion is accurate enuf....useful.