Liberals Face Division Over Israel's Human Rights Violations

[Little Dragon]

It may seem like it but 'we' dont have that many prisons.

Yeah I hate that sack of donkey organs with a blonde wig too.

 

[PureX]

"Liberals" were never united behind Israel. So it's no surprise they are not united behind them now.

And the radical sight in this country has always believed that "might makes right". They love guns and hate people, so of course they support Putin and Israel's brutality.

 

[icehorse]

@Bthoth -

several days ago I started this thread::

Jews and Palestinians - factual errors?

This pro-Israel video makes numerous factual claims. In other words, specific claims that can be proven true or false. Are there factual errors in this video? If so, which claims are in error?

www.religiousforums.com

Do you think this pro-israel video contains factual errors? If so, can you name a few?

 

[Revoltingest]

"Liberals" were never united behind Israel.

Even if so, they were largely cowed into silence.

And the radical sight in this country has always believed that "might makes right". They love guns and hate people, so of course they support Putin and Israel's brutality.

They don't hate people in general.
Just Muslims, atheists, & liberals.

 

[Little Dragon]

Israel has the ultimate nuclear option, ie, USA's
threat to wipe Iranians off the face of the Earth
if ever they attack Israel. And they mean it.
In just the proxy war using Iraq, USA killed
nearly a million Iranians. But they're only
Muslims used to kill Muslims.

Iran still has plenty of ballistic missiles and drones, and of course access to countless Jihadis. They'd have to get permission from Iraqis and Syrians to use their airspace to strike Israel. No way would Jordan agree to that. If Israel responded with nukes, Israel would become a global pariah, and would almost certainly face severe international condemnation and sanctions, not to mention unrelenting retaliation from a number of muslim majority nations, and their islamic extremist elements, who would almost certainly call for holy war against Israel, by the entire Islamic world.

 

[Revoltingest]

Iran still has plenty of ballistic missiles and drones, and of course access to countless Jihadis. They'd have to get permission from Iraqis and Syrians to use their airspace to strike Israel. No way would Jordan agree to that. If Israel responded with nukes, Israel would become a global pariah, and would almost certainly face severe international condemnation and sanctions, not to mention unrelenting retaliation from a number of muslim majority nations, and their islamic extremist elements, who would almost certainly call for holy war against Israel, by the entire Islamic world.

I see vanishingly small risk that Iran would want
to endure annihilation by USA just for an attack
on Israel. It's careful, fighting around the margins.

Israel is far from a pariah, but its sainthood is
becoming increasingly tarnished by its war crimes
& oppression. It's still immune to UN censure
because USA will obey.

 

[Little Dragon]

I see vanishingly small risk that Iran would want
to endure annihilation by USA just for an attack
on Israel.

I sincerely hope you are right.

 

[PureX]

Even if so, they were largely cowed into silence.

Maybe. But it was the "neo-cons" during and within the Reagan administration that really pushed our unquestioned support for Israel. And our active attacks and disruption on Israels 'enemies' in the Middle East.

They don't hate people in general.
Just Muslims, atheists, & liberals.

And gays and transexuals and women in positions of power. Also the Chinese and anyone south of Texas. Oh, and "intylectuals": anyone that sounds smart. And anyone that wants to regulate gun ownership and use. And "vegans", whatever they are. And people in California. And New York. And pretty much everyone in the whole northeastern U.S. ...

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe. But it was the "neo-cons" during and within the Reagan administration that really pushed our unquestioned support for Israel. And our active attacks and disruption on Israels 'enemies' in the Middle East.

Do you think it was ever otherwise for the Dems?

 

[David1967]

I've been wondering if / when this would happen.
Israel has managed public relations such that its
support here has been rock solid & unquestioned.
Hamas's hideous attack has up-ended this foundation
by provoking Israel to over-react... a far more hideous
response....a "ten eyes for an eye" kind of vengeance
upon the populace. This appears to be their design.

Liberals face a reckoning of their values, ie, Israel vs
human rights for Palestinians, no longer able to ignore
the latter, & tolerance for Islam being challenged.
Unified support for Israel is cracking, & this could affect
the 2024 election by weakening the Democrats.
Heaven forbid that this opens the door for Trump's
return to power.

The Left Is Tearing Itself Apart Over Israel

Pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian liberal factions are now divided as ugly accusations fly in both directions.

www.wsj.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/politics/democratic-divisions-israel-biden/index.html

Many issues arise from this.
Argue away, folks.

Bill Clinton famously said, "It's the economy stupid." Many people vote with their pocketbooks. And the economy is not good now, at least where I live. How will this translate in the 2024 election? I think if it does come down to Biden and Trump again, I would be very surprised if Biden wins a second term.

 

[Heyo]

And my statement stands; 'anyone that voted for that puke in 2016 should lose their rights to vote'

Nah, that's unfair. People didn't know what they were getting - and there wasn't a real alternative.
But people knew in 2020. I wouldn't mind if you talk about them.

 

[PureX]

Do you think it was ever otherwise for the Dems?

They weren't 'pushing it'. But they certainly took the bribe money just the same. That's been the story all along. The democrats like to pretend they are the ethical ones, but they take the money and do as their told just like the republicans do. And the result is that the American people pay for Israel's massive military, and suffer the backlash as we continue to disrupt Israel's enemies in the Middle East.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I suppose the key question is whether this internal rift among liberals and progressives would be enough to shift support over to the GOP. Would it would be a dealbreaker for some? Possibly, although it's hard to imagine that many people suddenly becoming MAGA supporters all because they felt AOC or Bernie Sanders weren't pro-Palestinian enough.

I've noticed an increasing prevalence of the idea that people find it unacceptable for others to try to take a more measured and objective approach, without necessarily giving a blank check of support to one side or the other.

I don't foresee many people turning from Democratic voters into MAGA voters either, but I don't think a shift in some votes would be nearly so much due to perceived lack of a strongly pro-Palestinian stance in a Democratic platform as it would be due to perceived one-sided and excessive support for Israel on Biden's part despite Israel's current policies. I suspect that many people's perception might be that Biden is giving a blank check to Israel—at the very least, this perception is widespread in my part of the world. I doubt that many people are under the illusion that an American president will be staunchly pro-Palestinian, but the main idea seems to be that Biden could have at least adopted a less lopsided and, as you put it, more measured and objective approach to the issue.

That said, DeSantis and Trump, either of whom is most likely to be the GOP's candidate, are both heavily pro-Israel too, probably to an even larger extent than Biden. If Biden loses enough votes to swing the election, I suspect that many of them may go to an independent or third-party candidate rather than the Republican option, although the article below also claims that 40% of Arab Americans polled would vote for Trump. If the poll is indicative at all of the demographic's planned voting tendencies, that seems to me a considerable percentage among a demographic whose voter majority backed Biden in the previous election.

Since this issue is a bona fide generational problem to many Arabs and Muslims rather than a mere consideration in the background, I could easily see it turning away votes from Biden. To what extent that will affect the election is the question, and one that I don't think anyone can answer yet.

WASHINGTON, Oct 31 (Reuters) - President Joe Biden's support among Arab Americans, who are crucial voters in battleground election states, has plunged from a comfortable majority in 2020 to just 17%, a new poll shows, amid growing anger over the Democratic president's support for Israel's attacks on Gaza.

Arab American support for Biden, at 59% in 2020, fell even before the outbreak of violence in the Middle East to 35%, the poll commissioned by the Arab American Institute showed, but has halved since.

The poll, released Tuesday, marks the first time since its inception in 1997 that a majority of Arab Americans did not identify as Democrats - 32% now identify as Republicans and 31% as independents. Forty percent of those polled said they would vote for former President Donald Trump, the likely Republican candidate in 2024, up 5 percentage points from 2020.

THE TAKE​

The poll is the latest evidence that Biden's campaign for a second term in office is rapidly losing Muslim and Arab Americans support over his staunch support of Israel. These voters have traditionally voted for Democratic candidates and are prominent in hotly contested states like Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania, that could decide the 2024 presidential election.

Arab American support for Biden, Democrats plummets over Israel, poll shows

President Joe Biden's support among Arab Americans, who are crucial voters in battleground election states, has plunged from a comfortable majority in 2020 to just 17%, a new poll shows, amid growing anger over the Democratic president's support for Israel's attacks on Gaza.

www.reuters.com

 

[Revoltingest]

They weren't 'pushing it'. But they certainly took the bribe money just the same. That's been the story all along. The democrats like to pretend they are the ethical ones, but they take the money and do as their told just like the republicans do. And the result is that the American people pay for Israel's massive military, and suffer the backlash as we continue to disrupt Israel's enemies in the Middle East.

I think the situation is worse than you describe.
They don't blindly support Israel's brutal oppression
because they're paid to....they believe in the cause,
as do many of their voters.

 

[PureX]

I think the situation is worse than you describe.
They don't blindly support Israel's brutal oppression
because they're paid to....they believe in the cause,
as do many of their voters.

Yes, thieves tend to imagine that they are justified in their thieving. As to those voters, they just don't think. Their knee jerks and they cut their own leg off. Not realizing that they cause their own hardship. But I hope no one here thinks this means we can ignore their suffering. Or excuse the thieves.

 

[Bthoth]

Nah, that's unfair. People didn't know what they were getting - and there wasn't a real alternative.

IN a sense, i understand that.
When I was young, choosing a president or politician was based on the individual character and their integrity. But then media (news) became the focal method of learning, rather than reading.
Trump was chosen based on attacking of the previous president and what was conveyed about hilliary. HE was using the media and online methods to find out what people liked to hear. (thru hiring steve bannon)

No one cared about his integrity and business practices.

But people knew in 2020. I wouldn't mind if you talk about them.

Sure, people started watching how he personally spoke and how HE reacted to find out what kind of monster that he actually is.

I knew that trump bankrupted over 5 of his previous companies and used a method of creating value in projects that actually did not exist. I called it 'perceived value' in the business that I was in 'real estate'. I knew that he was a master at it before he even tried for office.

 

[Stevicus]

I don't foresee many people turning from Democratic voters into MAGA voters either, but I don't think a shift in some votes would be nearly so much due to perceived lack of a strongly pro-Palestinian stance in a Democratic platform as it would be due to perceived one-sided and excessive support for Israel on Biden's part despite Israel's current policies. I suspect that many people's perception might be that Biden is giving a blank check to Israel—at the very least, this perception is widespread in my part of the world. I doubt that many people are under the illusion that an American president will be staunchly pro-Palestinian, but the main idea seems to be that Biden could have at least adopted a less lopsided and, as you put it, more measured and objective approach to the issue.

It's interesting, since I sometimes listen to the local Fox News radio affiliate, which has a local commentator in the mornings and the national shows in late morning and afternoons. They're painting Biden and the Democrats as pro-Palestinian. The local guy was ranting this morning about how they called parents at school board meetings "terrorists" for being upset about mask mandates during COVID, and he's comparing that to the fact that the college students marching in pro-Palestinian demonstrations are not being labeled as "terrorists." When our local mayor gave a speech offering prayers without condemning either side, the same guy accused her of being an anti-Semite, since she did not offer an outright, unequivocal condemnation of Palestine.

That's what I've noticed lately - and not just in this current crisis. Anything less than a total condemnation with no redemption whatsoever is painted as "supporting." It's an old and crude tactic, yet seemingly effective. I noticed it was similar with Trump. It wasn't simply enough to say "I disagree with Trump" or "I don't support Trump." Anyone who didn't say that "Trump is Hitler" was castigated as a Trump supporter. I saw this tactic used over and over and over - even here on RF.

That said, DeSantis and Trump, either of whom is most likely to be the GOP's candidate, are both heavily pro-Israel too, probably to an even larger extent than Biden. If Biden loses enough votes to swing the election, I suspect that many of them may go to an independent or third-party candidate rather than the Republican option, although the article below also claims that 40% of Arab Americans polled would vote for Trump. If the poll is indicative at all of the demographic's planned voting tendencies, that seems to me a considerable percentage among a demographic whose voter majority backed Biden in the previous election.

Since this issue is a bona fide generational problem to many Arabs and Muslims rather than a mere consideration in the background, I could easily see it turning away votes from Biden. To what extent that will affect the election is the question, and one that I don't think anyone can answer yet.

This might be a favorable time for a third-party or independent candidate to rise. However, realistically, I don't see it happening. I agree that Trump and DeSantis would likely be much more pro-Israel than Biden is.

It would not be a favor the Palestinian people to elect Trump, but it does seem to follow a pattern where the country moves further right after some sort of Middle Eastern disturbance.

I still recall the 1979 hostage takeover at the US embassy in Tehran, which directly led to Reagan's election. I still can't understand why the Iranians would have supported Reagan over Carter, but the result is that America moved further towards right-wing interventionism and warmongering. And then, after 9/11, it was even more intense, with the US becoming even more internationally aggressive as a result. And now, with this new crisis, it seems that the U.S. may go even further to the right.

 

[PureX]

Americans in general, and the right in particular are big proponents of massive, merciless retaliation for any violent offense. We attacked and destroyed a country that had nothing whatever to do with 9/11 and the American people were all for it. And to this day have no remorse or regret. We LOVE the idea of obliterating the "enemy" even if we got the wrong enemy. We stock pile guns and ammo in anticipation of being able to obliterate our neighbors, and even our own government. So of course we are all in favor of Israel's ultra-violent response to this terrorist attack, and of course we don't care if they kill the guilty or the innocent in the process of extracting massive revenge.

Because this is who we are. This is our cultural ideology. Might makes right and massive might is massively right. Every John Wayne/John Wick movie we've ever watched said so.

 

[Stevicus]

Americans in general, and the right in particular are big proponents of massive, merciless retaliation for any violent offense. We attacked and destroyed a country that had nothing whatever to do with 9/11 and the American people were all for it. And to this day have no remorse or regret. We LOVE the idea of obliterating the "enemy" even if we got the wrong enemy. We stock pile guns and ammo in anticipation of being able to obliterate our neighbors, and even our own government. So of course we are all in favor of Israel's ultra-violent response to this terrorist attack, and of course we don't care if they kill the guilty or the innocent in the process of extracting massive revenge.

Because this is who we are. This is our cultural ideology. Might makes right and massive might is massively right. Every John Wayne/John Wick movie we've ever watched said so.

A recurring theme in US politics:

 

[Revoltingest]

Americans in general, and the right in particular are big proponents of massive, merciless retaliation for any violent offense. We attacked and destroyed a country that had nothing whatever to do with 9/11 and the American people were all for it. And to this day have no remorse or regret. We LOVE the idea of obliterating the "enemy" even if we got the wrong enemy. We stock pile guns and ammo in anticipation of being able to obliterate our neighbors, and even our own government. So of course we are all in favor of Israel's ultra-violent response to this terrorist attack, and of course we don't care if they kill the guilty or the innocent in the process of extracting massive revenge.

Because this is who we are. This is our cultural ideology. Might makes right and massive might is massively right. Every John Wayne/John Wick movie we've ever watched said so.

That is not quite so. Yes, there is massive retaliation,
but USA doesn't obliterate the enemy. It goes part
way, leaving while the enemy still has some strength,
eg, Afghanistan.
While USA shouldn't have waged war there, at least
it didn't impose the far worse death & destruction
(of the country, neighboring countries, & civilians)
necessary to eliminate the Taliban.
Some wars aren't worth fighting or winning.