Liberals Face Division Over Israel's Human Rights Violations

[Jimmy]

To invoke complexity can be a wonderful tool
to obscure the fundamentals of an issue.

It's just like the many repeated attempts on RF
to prove the existence of God using arcane
premises & symbolic logic.
If the argument is complex enuf, then the basic
problem of no evidence is avoided.

If I recall you were one of the people saying it was complex history

 

[Revoltingest]

If I recall you were one of the people saying it was complex history

The history is indeed complex.
But the issues are far less so.

I start with my values of human rights.
Observe what who is doing what to whom.
Consider what power each party has.
Craft a solution to optimize rights for all.

I don't care about history such as God
promising some promised land to this
or that biblical character, or who named
an area "Palestine", or whether it was even
formally a "country. Such things are worse
than irrelevant to solution.

 

[Jimmy]

The history is indeed complex.
But the issues are far less so.

Yeah the issues is what I’m talkin about

 

[Jimmy]

The history is indeed complex.
But the issues are far less so.

Didnt the Jewish people become disillusioned when Arafat didn’t accept the terms after Israel offered them like 97% of what they wanted.? Sounds complex to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Didnt the Jewish people become disillusioned when Arafat didn’t accept the terms after Israel offered them like 97% of what they wanted.? Sounds complex to me.

There's much disillusionment on both sides.
There've been offers & demands made that
for various reasons have been unacceptable.
Israel uses rejection to justify belief that
"You can't reason with those people."
"They want to destroy Israel."
The mantras replace reason.
Past failures don't mean that giving Palestinians
peace & justice is doomed. And they certainly
don't justify Israel's heinous oppression & war
crimes.
If Israel looks only at history that makes them
fearful & vengeful, then they'll remain fearful
& vengeful...unable to see a solution.

 

[Stevicus]

Many people vote because they despise one candidate
less than the other. This is seldom "support".
Other people are on the fence, & policy towards Israel
could tip them to the other side.
You should think of "meta stability" instead of stability.
Especially when elections have been so close lately.
The slightest shove can have huge consequences.

Metastability - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It might shift a few election points here and there; could even swing a state or two. It could be a factor, but how much of a factor remains to be seen.

Part of the problem is a lack of coherency and any real direction in US foreign policy overall. Moreover, the US is perceived as diminished in strength and international prestige - along with facing sharp political divides at a level we have not seen in generations.

The left has gotten caught up in an ideological quagmire for decades now, which is why they continue to fracture and struggle. Overall, one consistent thread among the left is that, for the most part, they're on the side of those whom they see as oppressed or victims of tyranny and other abuses of power.

 

[Bthoth]

I've been wondering if / when this would happen.
Israel has managed public relations such that its
support here has been rock solid & unquestioned.

The problem there is the mistake of using Jews and allowing the combining of defending israel means defending Jews.
Jews are the rock solid part, Israel, not so much.

The part that I am 'wondering' is when will Jews en masse turn against Israel.

Hamas's hideous attack has up-ended this foundation
by provoking Israel to over-react...

Agreed. HAMAS does not represent palestinians/palestine nor Islam. Just as israel does not represent Jews or Judaism.

Liberals face a reckoning of their values, ie, Israel vs
human rights for Palestinians, no longer able to ignore
the latter, & tolerance for Islam being challenged.

Palestinians are not the face of Islam. To know Muslims it's hard to put a face of terrorism upon the believer. As is it hard to consider Israelis as Jewish. How could any person truly Jewish be as nasty as the military leaders of Israel?

Unified support for Israel is cracking, & this could affect
the 2024 election by weakening the Democrats.

Likewise with republicans.

Heaven forbid that this opens the door for Trump's
return to power.

Not gonna happen. As of this am, trumps own kids are supposed to take the stand against him. I am guessing that Donnie will find a jail cell and handcuffs before the trials are even over. The gag orders have been broken and fines imposed. Nothing will shut that man up and the judge(s) are already ready to lock him up.

Many issues arise from this.
Argue away, folks.

What's to argue?
There is no war, it's an internal conflict. Israel has abused them people for too long and the remnant lives of the oppressed have created a group of extremist within the israelis controlled territories.

Now even Blinken is siding with that big bibi nutlessyahoo and building a case to get US into a fight with Iran. About like what happened to Iraq. 911 had nothing to do with Iraq but that country was destroyed over the emotions fired up over 911.

That is what is happening right now over 10/7.

 

[Revoltingest]

It might shift a few election points here and there; could even swing a state or two. It could be a factor, but how much of a factor remains to be seen.

My point exactly.

Part of the problem is a lack of coherency and any real direction in US foreign policy overall. Moreover, the US is perceived as diminished in strength and international prestige - along with facing sharp political divides at a level we have not seen in generations.

Coherence itself is a problem when
supporting an ally's evil behavior
has no real dissent.

The left has gotten caught up in an ideological quagmire for decades now, which is why they continue to fracture and struggle. Overall, one consistent thread among the left is that, for the most part, they're on the side of those whom they see as oppressed or victims of tyranny and other abuses of power.

Unless the tyrants are Jewish,
& the victims are Muslim.
Ostensible liberal values are at
odds with policies they support.

 

[F1fan]

It might shift a few election points here and there; could even swing a state or two. It could be a factor, but how much of a factor remains to be seen.

Part of the problem is a lack of coherency and any real direction in US foreign policy overall. Moreover, the US is perceived as diminished in strength and international prestige - along with facing sharp political divides at a level we have not seen in generations.

Israel screwed up massively, and now the world has to deal with the results. There is plenty of blame for both Israel and Hamas in this conflict, and I think the priority needs to be protecting innocent families. It doesn't have to be political from a humanitarian approach.

The left has gotten caught up in an ideological quagmire for decades now, which is why they continue to fracture and struggle.

That is a problem for any political party that has diversity, there will be a lot more grey area to manage and consider. In a crisis people want more certainty, and seem to apply more balck/white thinking, so they will pick a side instead of being neutral. I am quite neutral in this war since I oppose the exessive bombing Israel is doing, and there not being more humanitarian aid to protect families caught in the fighting.

Overall, one consistent thread among the left is that, for the most part, they're on the side of those whom they see as oppressed or victims of tyranny and other abuses of power.

To my mind I think the oppressed can include the people of Israel who had been under the thumb of Netanyahu and the conservatives for many years. Those hard line policies have probably led to the lack of solutions with Gaza.

 

[Jimmy]

M

There's much disillusionment on both sides.
There've been offers & demands made that
for various reasons have been unacceptable.
Israel uses rejection to justify belief that
"You can't reason with those people."
"They want to destroy Israel."
The mantras replace reason.
Past failures don't mean that giving Palestinians
peace & justice is doomed. And they certainly
don't justify Israel's heinous oppression & war
crimes.
If Israel looks only at history that makes them
fearful & vengeful, then they'll remain fearful
& vengeful...unable to see a solution.

Maybe Palestinians can’t be reasoned with. Probably would’ve happened if that were the case. Who knows.

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem there is the mistake of using Jews and allowing the combining of defending israel means defending Jews.
Jews are the rock solid part, Israel, not so much.

I disagree. In USA politics...
Jews = Israel

The part that I am 'wondering' is when will Jews en masse turn against Israel.

Agreed. HAMAS does not represent palestinians/palestine nor Islam. Just as israel does not represent Jews or Judaism.

I observe that Israel is "the Jewish State" among
Jews here (including friends & family)

Palestinians are not the face of Islam.

But they are Muslims, which is to be less
human in the eyes of Israel & apologists (IMO).

Just like Jews or Judaism to know Muslims it's hard to put a face of terrorism upon the believer. As is it hard to consider Israelis as Jewish. How could any person truly Jewish be as nasty as the military leaders of Israel?

Likewise with republicans.

Religious fervor allows emotions & baser
instincts to trump religious beliefs.

Not gonna happen. I am guessing that he will find a jail cell and handcuffs before the trials are even over. The gag orders have been broken and fines imposed. Nothing will shut that man up and the judge(s) are already ready to lock him up.

I hope you're right.

What's to argue?

Everything.
This is RF.

There is no war, it's an internal conflict.

I agree with Israel that it's a war.

Israel has abused them people for too long and the remnant lives of the oppressed have created a group of extremist within the israelis controlled territories.

Now even Blinken is siding with that big bibi nutlessyahoo and building a case to get US into a fight with Iran. About like what happened to Iraq. 911 had nothing to do with Iraq but that country was destroyed over the emotions fired up over 911.

That is what is happening right now over 10/7.

Israel...the tail that wags the dog.
Even if Israel & progeny of Hamas
remain at each other's throats in
perpetuity, I hope we avoid WW3.

 

[Jimmy]

The history is indeed complex.
But the issues are far less so.

I start with my values of human rights.
Observe what who is doing what to whom.
Consider what power each party has.
Craft a solution to optimize rights for all.

I don't care about history such as God
promising some promised land to this
or that biblical character, or who named
an area "Palestine", or whether it was even
formally a "country. Such things are worse
than irrelevant to solution.

I hear ya. But I’m pretty sick of the whole thing so I’m gonna stop reading the news and talking about it. It’s just goofy

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe Palestinians can’t be reasoned with.

Many people are comfortable saying that Muslims
can't be reasoned with. What of the flip side...
Can Jews be reasoned with?
I say all humans can be reasonable if allowed.
Therein lies the solution to conflict.

 

[Jimmy]

Many people are comfortable saying that Muslims
can't be reasoned with. What of the flip side...
Can Jews be reasoned with?
I say all humans can be reasonable if allowed.
Therein lies the solution to conflict.

Maybe Jews can’t either. Who knows. I’m out

 

[Bthoth]

I disagree. In USA politics...
Jews = Israel

I observe that Israel is "the Jewish State" among
Jews here (including friends & family)

I know. Politics and bias has done damage to even thought processes.

But they are Muslims, which is to be less
human in the eyes of Israel & apologists (IMO).

But the religion is not the problem. Just as Jews are not the problem with israel.

All over the world Jews are being lambasted for what israel is doing to GAZA......... It's wrong!

Religious fervor allows emotions & baser
instincts to trump religious beliefs.

The civilized need to grow up and end the conflation of terms.

I agree with Israel that it's a war.

A war against what? An unarmed concentration camp? HAMAS is not a country.

Israel...the tail that wags the dog.
Even if Israel & progeny of Hamas
remain at each other's throats in
perpetuity, I hope we avoid WW3.

As you keep wagging the war flag, you are digging the same hole.

IN an actual sense, HAMAS are israelis. Israel created them and then put them into the 'concentration camp'

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe Jews can’t either. Who knows. I’m out

It's useful to consider everyone
capable of being reasonable.

 

[Bthoth]

It's useful to consider everyone
capable of being reasonable.

That is why I even post..... I consider everyone conscious as capable.

 

[Jimmy]

There is that, but there is also vengeance.

They should consider the consequences of their reaction.
It will only inspire more October Sevenths.
Fundamentally, the problem is Israel's brutal oppression
of Palestinians. That must stop before peace can exist.

It might inspire more oct 7 like attacks. Israel had to respond to oct 7 though. Again, not sayin it’s right. It’s been nearly 100 years of unwillingness to live in peace. I think it’s clear that neither side wants a peaceful solution.

 

[Revoltingest]

It might inspire more oct 7 like attacks. Israel had to respond to oct 7 though.

All agree Israel had to respond.
Disagreement is about how.

Again, not sayin it’s right. It’s been nearly 100 years of unwillingness to live in peace.

Then it's about time for them
to commit to succeed.

 

[Bthoth]

It might inspire more oct 7 like attacks. Israel had to respond to oct 7 though. Again, not sayin it’s right. It’s been nearly 100 years of unwillingness to live in peace. I think it’s clear that neither side wants a peaceful solution.

Both sides have been biased............ agreed!

The outstanding problem is the need, quest and requirement of that mount. That pursuit must be ended.