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Life Begins at Conception

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DarkSun

:eltiT
I can see what you mean.

But it seems just as immoral to me to abort a 9+ week old fetus, as it would be to kill a newborn baby. Arguably, both are just as aware and self-conscious.

But at the same time, it makes no sense to me to liken masturbation to mass murder.

So the human life must manifest at some point between conception and development.

The obvious difference between a gamete and an embryo is the amount of genetic material each individually contain - and the change in genetic material occurs at conception.

So an individual human life must begin at conception.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I can see what you mean.

But it seems just as immoral to me to abort a 9+ week old fetus, as it would be to kill a newborn baby.
This is an emotional argument on your part. If it's the basis for your opinion on abortion, well that's your business, but don't expect it to be agreed to by anyone who doesn't share your emotional gut reaction.

Arguably, both are just as aware and self-conscious.
I think this is incorrect. Arguably, the capacity for awareness and consciousness occurs over time, but just at birth, major changes in the fetus/baby take place: before birth, the fetus' neurological function is so suppressed that it doesn't have a breathing reflex and its heartbeat is just a "twitch" that's not actually capable of circulating blood. With the just-born baby's first breath, major changes take place: the breathing reflex "kicks on", the heart starts pumping at full pressure, and the baby "wakes up", both physically and mentally.

But at the same time, it makes no sense to me to liken masturbation to mass murder.
In a similar way, it makes no sense to equate a 9-week fetus with a newborn infant. Why is it that you're right and I'm wrong?

So the human life must manifest at some point between conception and development.
Human life is present in the fetus, just as human life was present in the separate sperm and egg.

The obvious difference between a gamete and an embryo is the amount of genetic material each individually contain - and the change in genetic material occurs at conception.

So an individual human life must begin at conception.
But here's the thing: what is it about this change that you think imparts value into the embryo that wasn't there when the sperm and egg were separate?

I get the religious argument. When someone tells me that the embryo receives its "soul" or the like at the moment of conception, fair enough: I understand how, if this were true, this would represent a reason to value an embryo or fetus as a person. I also understand that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that we have a "soul", let alone that our bodies receive it at conception.

What I don't get is the seemingly non-religious argument you're putting forward. There's nothing about the combination of DNA that implies we should change how we value an unfertilized egg or an embryo. I think your argument really breaks down like this:

- fetal development is a long, continuous process where it's difficult to pinpoint specific events of radical change, except at the two extreme ends.

- you've arbitrarily (or maybe emotionally) decided that the one extreme end, birth, is excluded from being the point at which the fetus becomes a "person" (or "a life").

- you recognize that it's very difficult to identify a single point along the continuum of fetal development where that specific point (and not some point just before or just after as well) could be justified as the point where a "person" (or "a life") begins. Therefore, you exclude the idea that the transition to "personhood" occurs during fetal development... not because you've shown that it doesn't happen, but you've decided it would be too difficult to try.

- the only point left is conception, so it's your answer by default... but without any consideration of whether it's a reasonable answer to the question of when "personhood" begins.

I think that it would be very difficult to make a case for any particular point in the process of conception, development and birth that would be "the" point at which "a life" begins. What I think is much more reasonable is reject the black-and-white concepts like "personhood" or "a life"/"not a life" as rather useless and instead to believe that the value of the fetus increases continually over the course of the pregnancy.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
This is an emotional argument on your part. If it's the basis for your opinion on abortion, well that's your business, but don't expect it to be agreed to by anyone who doesn't share your emotional gut reaction.

I think some things are worth being emotional about, especially this.

Also, I don't expect anyone with a different viewpoint to agree with me. That would be extremely arrogant. I don't expect anything from anyone unless they're willing to give it, to be honest. What I would like is for people to understand where I'm coming from.


I think this is incorrect. Arguably, the capacity for awareness and consciousness occurs over time, but just at birth, major changes in the fetus/baby take place: before birth, the fetus' neurological function is so suppressed that it doesn't have a breathing reflex and its heartbeat is just a "twitch" that's not actually capable of circulating blood. With the just-born baby's first breath, major changes take place: the breathing reflex "kicks on", the heart starts pumping at full pressure, and the baby "wakes up", both physically and mentally.

Maybe we should elevate the age of the fetus by ten weeks. Are you against the abortion of a 20+ week old fetus?


In a similar way, it makes no sense to equate a 9-week fetus with a newborn infant. Why is it that you're right and I'm wrong?

I never mentioned right and wrong. You did.


Human life is present in the fetus, just as human life was present in the separate sperm and egg.

The sperm and egg have no potential to become human, individually, though. They must first unite for that to happen.


But here's the thing: what is it about this change that you think imparts value into the embryo that wasn't there when the sperm and egg were separate?

The extra genetic information, without which the fetus can never begin to develop?

I get the religious argument. When someone tells me that the embryo receives its "soul" or the like at the moment of conception, fair enough: I understand how, if this were true, this would represent a reason to value an embryo or fetus as a person. I also understand that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that we have a "soul", let alone that our bodies receive it at conception.

I understand your viewpoint quite well, which is why you'll never hear me refer to the "soul". It would serve no purpose.

Besides, I personally don't think arguing about things which can't be proven is entirely meaningful. Especially considering the audience of the debate.


What I don't get is the seemingly non-religious argument you're putting forward. There's nothing about the combination of DNA that implies we should change how we value an unfertilized egg or an embryo. I think your argument really breaks down like this:

:p

- fetal development is a long, continuous process where it's difficult to pinpoint specific events of radical change, except at the two extreme ends.

Agreed.


- you've arbitrarily (or maybe emotionally) decided that the one extreme end, birth, is excluded from being the point at which the fetus becomes a "person" (or "a life").

Tell me. If you put a spermatozoan into a petri dish, and added nothing else, would it be very likely to see a child in that dish 38 weeks later?

- you recognize that it's very difficult to identify a single point along the continuum of fetal development where that specific point (and not some point just before or just after as well) could be justified as the point where a "person" (or "a life") begins. Therefore, you exclude the idea that the transition to "personhood" occurs during fetal development... not because you've shown that it doesn't happen, but you've decided it would be too difficult to try.

It's already a person before fetal development, or at least has the potential to be.
I'm sorry, but a single gamete, alone, does not have that potential until conception.

- the only point left is conception, so it's your answer by default... but without any consideration of whether it's a reasonable answer to the question of when "personhood" begins.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? :p

I think that it would be very difficult to make a case for any particular point in the process of conception, development and birth that would be "the" point at which "a life" begins. What I think is much more reasonable is reject the black-and-white concepts like "personhood" or "a life"/"not a life" as rather useless and instead to believe that the value of the fetus increases continually over the course of the pregnancy.

Seems simple enough.


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DarkSun

:eltiT
Do you have a rational basis for your claim?

I could say that life begins when the fetus' heart starts beating.

Or when its neural development reaches a certain stage.

Or when it has any other characteristics you could think of.

I could say a fetus is alive when it looks human.

When it has obvious gender characteristics.

I could say that the fetus is a human life when it's born.

I could say it's alive two weeks before it's born, or ten weeks before it was born, because it could have survived if it were born then just as well as now.

I could have said it was alive when it was self-conscious to some degree.

And that really brings forth a lot of questions right there.

How much more self-conscious is a nine week old fetus compared to a twenty week old? Nine weeks, compared to thirty-eight weeks? Twenty-six weeks, compared to thirty-eight weeks? Nine weeks compared to a newborn?

And how would you know? Maybe I should ask it?

Forget it. I don't have to. I don't remember my birth at all, and I doubt anyone alive really does. We must sure have been really aware when we were newborns to have remembered birth so poorly.


Or I could say life begins at conception, for reasons I've already outlined.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think some things are worth being emotional about, especially this.
Another emotional argument.

Also, I don't expect anyone with a different viewpoint to agree with me. That would be extremely arrogant. I don't expect anything from anyone unless they're willing to give it, to be honest. What I would like is for people to understand where I'm coming from.
Fair enough.

Maybe we should elevate the age of the fetus by ten weeks. Are you against the abortion of a 20+ week old fetus?
I think that would be extreme, but I probably wouldn't be against it in all cases, no.

I never mentioned right and wrong. You did.
You made an assertion. Making an assertion implies a claim that the assertion is correct.

I made a conflicting assertion. Because it conflicts with yours, both cannot be correct at the same time. Therefore, your assertion implies that my assertion is wrong.

We can't accept both at the same time. Why should we accept yours when it can be refuted in the same way that you refuted another claim?

The sperm and egg have no potential to become human, individually, though. They must first unite for that to happen.
A quibble about the difference between "human" the adjective and "human" the noun aside, you're right: they have to unite to have the potential to become a human.

The extra genetic information, without which the fetus can never begin to develop?
There's no more genetic information in the fertilized egg than there was in the egg and sperm when they were separate.

I don't actually agree with this point. I was just stating it to make sure I was clear on what your argument was.

Tell me. If you put a spermatozoan into a petri dish, and added nothing else, would it be very likely to see a child in that dish 38 weeks later?
No. Same as a fertilized egg.

It's already a person before fetal development, or at least has the potential to be.
But that's the key difference: is the embryo a person, or does it have the potential to become a person?

I'm sorry, but a single gamete, alone, does not have that potential until conception.
An egg by itself or a sperm by itself isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a sperm and egg taken together, but just before fertilization occurs.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? :p
I'm trying to mentally work through your argument. If I got it wrong, please let me know.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How much more self-conscious is a nine week old fetus compared to a twenty week old? Nine weeks, compared to thirty-eight weeks? Twenty-six weeks, compared to thirty-eight weeks? Nine weeks compared to a newborn?

And how would you know? Maybe I should ask it?
Maybe you could administer a fetal EEG and see the fetus' response to stimuli to see whether they're aware, as these researchers did with sheep fetuses:

The extent to which the fetus may be able to experience sensations, including pain, in utero has apparently been greatly overestimated. The misconception that the prematurely born human infant is a good surrogate for the human fetus of the same post-conception age has led to the notion that awareness, pain experience and the potential to suffer, which are observable in premature human infants born at 30 weeks or earlier, should therefore occur in equivalent human fetuses. However, extensive studies of lambs in utero have demonstrated that the physiological environment of the fetal brain, and its responsiveness to stimuli, are markedly different from those of the newborn lamb, whether born prematurely or not. The fetus apparently remains in continuous states of sleep-like unconsciousness, which are maintained by a range of neuroinhibitory physiological mechanisms that are unique to fetal life. Moreover, the fetus is not apparently arousable to states of 'awareness' by potentially noxious humoral, auditory or surgical stimuli.
http://altweb.jhsph.edu/bin/g/y/paper79.pdf

That, or you could honestly ask yourself what qualities of an individual warrant them being valued as a person? Speaking for myself, it's not a heartbeat, neurological function, "obvious gender characteristics" or any of the other things you mentioned. These are all certainly present in living human beings, but they aren't what makes a person a person.

Hypothetical question: say a flying saucer lands and aliens come out. You talk to them and find out that they think, feel emotions, have intelligence, and in every practical way act like people. However, when scientists examine them, they find that these aliens have completely different physiologies from us: they have no discernable heart, neurological function, gender charateristics or any of the other items you listed.

Would you consider these aliens "persons"? If not, why not?

Or I could say life begins at conception, for reasons I've already outlined.
You haven't outlined any reasons.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
No. Same as a fertilized egg.

An egg on its own and a sperm on its own could not develop into a child, on their own. Fertilisation needs to occur. The spermatozoan needs to release hydrolytic enzymes to break through the corona radiata, through the zona pelucidum, and bind to a receptor, which all leads to fertilisation. Unless this happens, then there is zero potential for both an oocyte or a spermatozoan to develop into a healthy human baby.

In short, a gamete is not a potential human life until conception - because it could never become a human until the two different gametes unite.

If you were to put a spermatozoan into an artificial womb, it would never develop. But that changes once the gametes combine.

Which explains why masturbation isn't mass murder, in my eyes. The gametes have about zero change of ever merging, and so a child can never be possible.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
An egg on its own and a sperm on its own could not develop into a child, on their own.
Neither could a fertlized egg, on its own.

Fertilisation needs to occur. The spermatozoan needs to release hydrolytic enzymes to break through the corona radiata, through the zona pelucidum, and bind to a receptor, which all leads to fertilisation. Unless this happens, then there is zero potential for both an oocyte or a spermatozoan to develop into a healthy human baby.

In short, a gamete is not a potential human life until conception - because it could never become a human until the two different gametes unite.

Which explains why masturbation isn't mass murder, in my eyes. The gametes have about zero change of ever merging, and so a child can never be possible.
And the two gametes together do not have the potential to become human unless the morula/blastocyst implants itself on the uterine wall. It appears "merged gametes" aren't sufficient for a person to occur.

Countless other things have to happen over the course of the pregnancy for the embryo/fetus to develop into a person. There are many, many things like hormonal inputs from the mother (as well as the input of basic oxygen and nutrients) that are needed but not present in that initial fertilized egg.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Have I outlined them now?
No, you haven't.

You've covered the "a fertilized egg is a combination of gametes" part quite a bit, but you haven't covered the "...and this implies the fertilized egg is a person because of ______" part at all.
 

lockyfan

Active Member
Really?
Please present the quote and where said quote can be found.

Psalms 139:16
Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,
And in your book all its parts were down in writing,
As regards the days when they were formed
And there was not yet one among them.

So an embryo is classed as a person because God already knows that being even as an embryo.
 

McBell

Unbound
Psalms 139:16
Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,
And in your book all its parts were down in writing,
As regards the days when they were formed
And there was not yet one among them.

So an embryo is classed as a person because God already knows that being even as an embryo.
that is a stretch even for you.
 
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