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Life Begins at Conception

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bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
You're arguing that because conception occurs (and human development) that human life begins at conception.

The thing is, no one is debating whether or not conception or human development occurs. Of course it occurs, but it doesn't logically follow that human life begins at conception simply because of the fact of its occurance.

Human life is not a biological fact, but a philosophical construct including concepts such as personhood, freedom, and human dignity (and so on). Referencing a dictionary for these terms and then applying them to a shallow understanding of human development is childish and completely misses the point.


Human life is not a biological fact.........?

Weird! This goes back to is reality real?

Curious are you Debating or do you actually believe this? Can you elaborate with the defining levels of Human life? For example at what age does the philosophical construct say you are a human life and are their Medical reason's for saying a human life is over even though they are still alive.

My take is that of course life begins at conception but that doesn't mean it can't be ended and in some cases should be ended. This applies to all humans not just zygotes.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Human life is not a biological fact.........?

Weird! This goes back to is reality real?

Curious are you Debating or do you actually believe this? Can you elaborate with the defining levels of Human life? For example at what age does the philosophical construct say you are a human life and are their Medical reason's for saying a human life is over even though they are still alive.

My take is that of course life begins at conception but that doesn't mean it can't be ended and in some cases should be ended. This applies to all humans not just zygotes.

I was referring to the concept of human life as used in the phrase "human life begins at conception" in the sense that a fertilized egg or zygote should be considered a person or a human being.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I was referring to the concept of human life as used in the phrase "human life begins at conception" in the sense that a fertilized egg or zygote should be considered a person or a human being.


It still bears the question at what point are we considered alive in philosophy. The terms you used can clearly be applied to a young child or a person in a coma for instance.

It is the concept most people use when defending abortion but I never heard it exactly as you put it. I am not questioning it but wish to understand it.
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
I was referring to the concept of human life as used in the phrase "human life begins at conception" in the sense that a fertilized egg or zygote should be considered a person or a human being.
If they meet the definitions in post #1467, A Case for Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception, which they do, then they are a person and a human being.

Again, objection does not constitute a demonstration.

How many times are you going around this bush?
Your objections are addressed in the definitions in post #1467, for which you still have not answered the question:

do the definitions in post #1467 disagree with your standard?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
It still bears the question at what point are we considered alive in philosophy. The terms you used can clearly be applied to a young child or a person in a coma for instance.

It is the concept most people use when defending abortion but I never heard it exactly as you put it. I am not questioning it but wish to understand it.

That's precisely the point.

First of all, there are varying views on this. But the point is biology alone can't answer it (and I'm not saying this for your benefit).

The difference between a young child and a fertilized egg - or a fetus for that matter - is that it can live on its own outside of the womb. Granted, the child will need food and shelter, but its not a single cell or mass of cells with no nervous system or anything else that could potentially denote personhood.

After a child can survive outside of the womb, and particularly after it is born, it is without question a human being despite its possible deformities. The human being, whether functional or non-functional is a symbol of the great potentials of humanity and we treat them with all the dignity and respect that a human deserves. This includes the right to die as one desires.

The fertilized egg, zygote, and embryo have basically no potential as a symbol of the great potentials of humanity and we have no need to treat them with all the dignity and respect that a human deserves. There is no chance for survival outside of the womb, and no chance for personhood, human expression, or achievement.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
do the definitions in post #1467 disagree with your standard?

I don't have the compassion to correct you any more. I know what the words mean. If you're interested in what it means to be a human being, pick up Beauchamp and Childress's Biomedical Ethics and use works in their bibliography. Or at least you could look the words up in OED.

Just assume that Webster is right and move on. You're under the delusion that you have an understanding of biology that comes from a dictionary. Fine.

You're still arguing that because conception occurs, life begins at conception.

That's circular reasoning.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
It is a little less confusing but still leaves a lot of confusion.

For me it is simpler to say that it is alive but you can not force anyone to take care of another life.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
It is a little less confusing but still leaves a lot of confusion.

For me it is simpler to say that it is alive but you can not force anyone to take care of another life.

You really can't force anyone to do anything.

But there are several principles guiding when you should.

First of all, a good principle is this: if a person can benefit greatly from a smaller amount of effort / risk / cost to you, you are obligated to help that other person.

And the closer in family relation, the more the obligation.

That's all relative, but you can apply it to a lot of situations.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
You really can't force anyone to do anything.

But there are several principles guiding when you should.

First of all, a good principle is this: if a person can benefit greatly from a smaller amount of effort / risk / cost to you, you are obligated to help that other person.

And the closer in family relation, the more the obligation.

That's all relative, but you can apply it to a lot of situations.

I'm maltusian so I don't necessarily agree. In certain circumstances we all benefit by lessening the population as long as its done without Bigotry.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I'm maltusian so I don't necessarily agree. In certain circumstances we all benefit by lessening the population as long as its done without Bigotry.

haha

... like Plato and Aristotle's support of forced abortion / exposure to limit the populations in their Republics?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
I don't have the compassion to correct you any more. I know what the words mean. If you're interested in what it means to be a human being, pick up Beauchamp and Childress's Biomedical Ethics and use works in their bibliography. Or at least you could look the words up in OED.
Just assume that Webster is right and move on. You're under the delusion that you have an understanding of biology that comes from a dictionary. Fine.
You're still arguing that because conception occurs, life begins at conception.
That's circular reasoning.
1) You continually misstate my case so that you can say it is circular reasoning. My case is:

Because biologically-demonstrated human life occurs at conception, therefore, individual human life begins at conception.
The conclusion is incontrovertible.
There is nothing "circular" about it.

2) Nor is there anything about Webster in post #1467, A Case for Inividual Human Life Beginning at Conception.

3) My understanding of biology comes from the field of biology.
My understanding of words comes from standard definitions for those words.

4) You still have not answered the question: do the definitions in post #1467 disagree with your standard?
Your "Just assume" above is neither yes nor no, but more failure to give a straight-forward answer and to commit to a position you would have to defend. . .
because you can't.

5) And actually, the only thing "circular" going on here is your repeated circling of the same bush with the same undemonstrated, therefore groundless, objections.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Because biologically-demonstrated human life occurs at conception, therefore, individual human life begins at conception.
The conclusion is incontrovertible.
There is nothing "circular" about it.

How am I mis-stating this? It is precisely "conception occurs, so human life begins at conception."
 
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smokydot

Well-Known Member
How am I mis-stating this? It is precisely "conception occurs, so human life begins at conception."

Doin' the "circular" dance again. . . uh huh: hamster : uh huh. . .'round and 'round your same ole bush. . .
That was explained in post #1491 where I corrected your misstatement. Review it there.

And while you are there, also review you're claim to ending your correcting on this.

Quote exactly from post #1467, A Case for Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Doin' the "circular" dance again. . . uh huh: hamster : uh huh. . .'round and 'round your same ole bush. . .
That was explained in post #1491 where I corrected your misstatement. Review it there.

And while you are there, also review you're claim to ending your correcting on this.

Quote exactly from post #1467, A Case for Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception.

You didn't even attempt to address the question.

How am I mis-representing you?
 

smokydot

Well-Known Member
angelous-evangelous repeats (post#1494): "You didn't even attempt to address the question. How am I mis-representing you?"

And doin' the "circular" dance again. . . uh huh: hamster : uh huh. . .'round and 'round your same ole bush. . .
Again, that was explained in post #1491 where I corrected your misstatement. Review it there.

And while you are there, also review you're claim to ending your correcting on this.

Quote exactly from post #1467, A Case for Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception.
 
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smokydot

Well-Known Member
angelous-evangelous observes (post#1496): "I see you're unwilling to dialogue."

Doin' the "circular" dance again. . . uh huh: hamster : uh huh. . .'round and 'round your same ole bush. . .
Explained in post #1491 where I corrected your misstatement. Review it there.

And while you are there, also review you're claim to ending your correcting on this.

Quote exactly from post #1467, A Case for Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception.
 
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smokydot

Well-Known Member
Doin' the bury dance again. . . uh huh: hamster : uh huh. . .'round and 'round your same ole bush. . .
See post #1491 where I corrected your misstatement. Review it there.

And while you are there, also review you're claim to ending your correcting on this.

Quote exactly from post #1467, A Case for Individual Human Life Beginning at Conception.
 
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