Life begins at....?

[Pegg]

I think I see where the confusion is; there seems to be two quite different wordings of
the same verse with regards to the condition of the child after the woman is hit/hurt:

Exodus 21:22 in the NIV: "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she
gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined
whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows."

Exodus 21:22 in the CJB: "If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a
pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm
follows, he must be fined. He must pay the amount set by the woman's husband and
confirmed by judges."

One mentions no serious injury, the other mentions the baby outright dying.

Isn't relying on ancient texts fun?

-

its not the ancient text you have to contend with ....its the translation.


Look at your 2nd verse carefully...."...hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined."


What other harm could follow if someone dies? Isnt death the ultimate harm that could occur to anyone??? Once your dead, you cant be hurt anymore then that.

So this is a really bad translation of the text which literally says "if her child comes out but no other harm occurs"
A child can come out unharmed through premature labor and that is why most modern translators insert 'premature'. It is the only thing that makes sense. You cant harm someone who is dead, but you can give birth prematurely and the baby can be alright. If however the baby comes out and it 'dies', then the 'life for life' penalty is given to the man.

 

[Pegg]

Exactly what do you think the words " her unborn child dies" means?

"If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, . . .
. . . then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. ​

Do "die" and "fatal" really have to be explained to you?

die

intransitive verb \ˈdī\ : to stop living

fa·tal

adjective \ˈfā-təl\ : causing death
​

I give up. You're inability to read simple English without filtering through the necessities of your faith is sad. Quite sad, in fact.

that translation you are using is wrong. Just look at the context and ask yourself how could a child die but be unharmed in the process

'...child dies,.. .then, even if no other harm follows'


Its not my english that is wrong.... its your skills of deduction that need some work

 

[Me Myself]

Exactly what do you think the words " her unborn child dies" means?

"If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, . . .
. . . then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined. ​

Do "die" and "fatal" really have to be explained to you?

die

intransitive verb \ˈdī\ : to stop living

fa·tal

adjective \ˈfā-təl\ : causing death
​

I give up. You're inability to read simple English without filtering through the necessities of your faith is sad. Quite sad, in fact.

I am nit following the problem here, this is what the txt says in KJB:


22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

I would assume fruit depart from her to mean child is dead but what does mischief means?

 

[Me Myself]

that translation you are using is wrong. Just look at the context and ask yourself how could a child die but be unharmed in the process

'...child dies,.. .then, even if no other harm follows'


Its not my english that is wrong.... its your skills of deduction that need some work

You are assuming they are talking about THE CHILD being unharmed. Have you even remotely considerd they were talking about the child dying but the woman not being hurt in any physically permanent way or did you just take the first guess coming into your mind and assumed it was impossible?

 

[Skwim]

I think I see where the confusion is; there seems to be two quite different wordings of
the same verse with regards to the condition of the child after the woman is hit/hurt:

No confusion.

I quoted a verse that said

"If people are fighting with each other and happen to hurt a pregnant woman so badly that her unborn child dies, then, even if no other harm follows, he must be fined.
​

To which Pegg replied to my quote by saying:

"that verse says that if they fight, and hurt a pregnant woman, and her children come out 'BUT NO FATAL ACCIDENT OCCURS' he should have damages imposed upon him."
​

Her unqualified "that verse says" directly refers what I had just posted, not some other Bible version she may prefer. If she wants to compare Chapter X Verse Y as found in various Bibles, fine, then cite that version as I did; however, she did not so I don't consider this to be the case.

Isn't relying on ancient texts fun?

Well, picking which version fits one's particular need can certainly be advantageous.

 

[Skwim]

that translation you are using is wrong.

And your translation is right because _______ :slap: ________. That's what I thought.

Just look at the context and ask yourself how could a child die but be unharmed in the process

'...child dies,.. .then, even if no other harm follows'

Look, I'm not going to waste my time teaching you English syntax, believe as you must. Your protest is moot.

 

[Pegg]

You are assuming they are talking about THE CHILD being unharmed. Have you even remotely considerd they were talking about the child dying but the woman not being hurt in any physically permanent way or did you just take the first guess coming into your mind and assumed it was impossible?

why mention 'pregnant' at all if its speaking about women in general.

The writer could have simply said that if a woman in harmed by two men fighting, her own can impose a fine.

The context is what tells us its speaking about the child and not the mother.

 

[Pegg]

I am nit following the problem here, this is what the txt says in KJB:


22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

I would assume fruit depart from her to mean child is dead but what does mischief means?

you are looking at an old english translation of the hebrew text.

Maybe if you were from the 16th century you'd understand what is being said here.

Besides this, the KJV is a terribly inaccurate translation of the original text.

 

[Benoni]

you are looking at an old english translation of the hebrew text.

Maybe if you were from the 16th century you'd understand what is being said here.

Besides this, the KJV is a terribly inaccurate translation of the original text.

Amen so is the JW version

 

[idea]

Biblically. With your first breath.

Actually, no...

• Jeremiah 1:5
  
  5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee...
  
  
  
  Gen 2: 7 And the Lord God formed bman of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ie - God placed a pre-existing spirit into a body, through which Adam became a living soul.


Gen2: 4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were acreated, in the day that the bLord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:


The generations of heaven and the generations of earth - everything was spiritually organized before it was physically upon the earth.

Our spirits are eternal, without beginning, just like God.

re abortion - one f the first commandments God gave was to "multiply and fill the Earth". Life is a test to see how we respect, love, and take care of life. Abortion obviously goes against the reverence of life.

 

[Benoni]

Actually, no...

• Jeremiah 1:5
  
  5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee...
  
  
  
  Gen 2: 7 And the Lord God formed bman of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ie - God placed a pre-existing spirit into a body, through which Adam became a living soul.


Gen2: 4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were acreated, in the day that the bLord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:


The generations of heaven and the generations of earth - everything was spiritually organized before it was physically upon the earth.

Our spirits are eternal, without beginning, just like God.

re abortion - one f the first commandments God gave was to "multiply and fill the Earth". Life is a test to see how we respect, love, and take care of life. Abortion obviously goes against the reverence of life.

The word eternal does not fit man. As you posted God formed man from the dust of the earth on the seven day. But also created am in his image and likeness on the 6th day. If man was created/later formed how can He be an eteranl being??? Yes I believe spirits are age abiding. but only God is truly eterenal

 

[idea]

The word eternal does not fit man. As you posted God formed man from the dust of the earth on the seven day. But also created am in his image and likeness on the 6th day. If man was created/later formed how can He be an eteranl being??? Yes I believe spirits are age abiding. but only God is truly eterenal

eternal life applies to man, and eternal means both no beginning and no end.... ie, it would be impossible for us to gain eternal life if we were not first eternal beings.

the true meaning of the word create means to transform -
Hebrew Root Word Studies

[SIZE=+1]Child Root (Branches of the Tree)[/SIZE]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia] Pronunciation: "Qa-NeH"
Meaning: To build a nest.
Comments: This child root is a nest builder, one who builds a nest such as a bird. Also God as in Bereshiyt (Genesis) 14.19; "God most high creator (qaneh) of sky and earth". The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest (qen), the sky and earth. The Hebrews saw man as the children (eggs) that God built the nest for. [/FONT]

here's another link:
God is not the Creator, claims academic - Telegraph

in short...
God is cleaning up a mess He did not ex-Nihlo create...

He found us, saw that He was more intelligent, and provided a way for us to advance and become like Him. We are adopted:

• Romans 8:15
  
  15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Adoption is where you take care of someone you did not create... perhaps a horror to know where we came from, but there's hope in what we can become.

 

[Uberpod]

Life begins at Puberty!!

 

[freethinker44]

Okay, this isn't an abortion debate and I'm pretty sure there is a dedicated section of this site for scriptural debates.

 

[adi2d]

Actually, no...

• Jeremiah 1:5
  
  5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee...
  
  
  
  Gen 2: 7 And the Lord God formed bman of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

ie - God placed a pre-existing spirit into a body, through which Adam became a living soul.


Gen2: 4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were acreated, in the day that the bLord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:


The generations of heaven and the generations of earth - everything was spiritually organized before it was physically upon the earth.

Our spirits are eternal, without beginning, just like God.

re abortion - one f the first commandments God gave was to "multiply and fill the Earth". Life is a test to see how we respect, love, and take care of life. Abortion obviously goes against the reverence of life.

Actually yes. Adam became a living soul when God gave him the breath of life. It says nothing about a pre existing soul. God would know who would take a breath and who wouldn't
The OP specifically said he didn't want another abortion thread so leave that for another time
The earth seems pretty ful to me so we have that command covered

 

[Benoni]

eternal life applies to man, and eternal means both no beginning and no end.... ie, it would be impossible for us to gain eternal life if we were not first eternal beings.
.

Wrong. Eternal is a religiois word and a bad translation

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

One age leads to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, etc.

 

[idea]

Actually yes. Adam became a living soul when God gave him the breath of life.

Adam's body became alive when God gave him a spirit - when a spirit was placed into flesh....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Man, Antemortal Existence of

See also Council in Heaven ; Foreordination ; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father ; Spirit Creation

• God of the spirits of all flesh: Num. 16:22 . ( Num. 27:16 . )
  
  God is our adoptive Father - the Father of our spirits
• all the sons of God shouted for joy: Job 38:7 .
  
  we are the children of God - we were there when the Earth was formed.
• the spirit shall return unto God who gave it: Eccl. 12:7 .
  
  "return" means to go to a place we previously were.
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee: Jer. 1:5 .
• Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him: Zech. 12:1 .

• who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind: John 9:2 .
  
  the apostles believed "this man" had the ability to sin before he was born.
• poets have said, For we are also his offspring: Acts 17:28 .
• For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate: Rom. 8:29 .
• chosen us in him before the foundation of the world: Eph. 1:4 .
  
  God knew us before we were born.
• subjection unto the Father of spirits: Heb. 12:9 .
• angels which kept not their first estate: Jude 1:6 .
• Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: Rev. 12:7 .
  
  There was a war in heaven before the earth was formed, those who kept their first estate (those who are alive on the earth now) sided with God... the fallen angels sided with Satan... it was a wr over free will, Satan's plan was to force everyone to be good - to take away free will... God's plan was to give us all free will, and allow us all the joys and pains that go with it.

 

[idea]

Wrong. Eternal is a religiois word and a bad translation

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

One age leads to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, to another, etc.

here you go:
KJV Search Results for "eternal"

the word used to describe the nature of God, is the same word used to describe us - eternal.


Either you realize that God is not a monster, who is cleaning up a mess He did not create - that we really do have free will (ie, we are not just products of how we were created, because we were not created).... or you believe God to be the creator of imperfection, and us to be robots...


I have to run - time for church! Think about it, knowing who we are, and where we came from - who God is, and our relationship to Him, is paramount in our ability to progress.

 

[Pegg]

Adam's body became alive when God gave him a spirit - when a spirit was placed into flesh....

the hebrew word for spirit is Ruach... in the context of Genesis and mans creation, it means 'breath'

Genesis 2:7*And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.


the spirit in this context is a force affording life. God literally 'breathed' life into the man and he became a 'living soul'.... spirit/breath/ruach

 

[Smart_Guy]

Which selection goes with or implies "once the mother is considered pregnant"?

My bet would go with that.