Life begins at....?

[Kalidas]

Until the first breath its a case of 'the lights are on but nobody is home

that is actually factually and biologically incorrect.


Child development major here! Infants in the womb can hear,see,taste,touch etc etc etc and are VERY much impacted on the world around them and react with the world around them. Things like building a relationship with the mother starts here along with whether or not they are left handed or right handed. Even language acquisition in its most rudimentary stages begins here.

 

[adi2d]

HOLY CRAP! Pegg and I agree on something! I knew it would happen some day .

If a baby is "alive" ONLY when it breathes its first breathe that means all children with CP are anywhere for seconds to minutes younger then what the birth cert says. OR more importantly my son passed away as he was being birthed he NEVER got a first breathe. So is my child any less of a child now?

for the record I say viability in the strict Biological terms. In the spiritual souls and such I do not know.

All forum nonsense aside. My condolences for your loss. No parent should suffer that loss

If I 3an the world that would never happen

 

[freethinker44]

No its not a 'sack of meat'. No need to get snippy.

I answered your question now would you be so kind as answer mine?

If the baby is born and doesn't take the first breath. When did the baby die?

I'm didn't intend for it to sound snippy, but you said a baby isn't alive before it's born and I'm just genuinely curious about the reasoning there.

When does it die? It dies when it dies. If a fetus (or baby or whatever anyone wants to call it) dies minutes, hours, days, etc, before it was born, I would just say it died however long before it was born. I wouldn't say it never lived.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And why choose this as a "personhood" point? Why not some developmental milestone or some other criteria?

That is a developmental milestone. It's probably the most significant single milestone after conception.

Edit: I think it makes sense as the point at which to choose this as the dividing line for "personhood" because before this line, the fetus does not have sentience or sapience. Afterward, it has these things in increasing degrees.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not alive before that?

It was alive before conception when it was a separate sperm and egg.

 

[freethinker44]

That is a developmental milestone. It's probably the most significant single milestone after conception.

Edit: I think it makes sense as the point at which to choose this as the dividing line for "personhood" because before this line, the fetus does not have sentience or sapience. Afterward, it has these things in increasing degrees.

I wouldn't call birth a developmental milestone, it's just an event. It just doesn't make sense to me that we would consider a severely premature infant to be a person while it is barely clinging to life, and can't live without extreme intervention, while the average healthy 8 or 9 month old fetus which would have little, if any, health problems isn't considered a person, and the only thing that decides this is basically their present location. What's the difference between a 27 week fetus and a preemie delivered at 27 weeks? Why should one just be a bag of meat in a womb while the other is a person in a NICU somewhere?

 

[freethinker44]

It was alive before conception when it was a separate sperm and egg.

I totally agree, but I'm not the one who implied it wasn't alive.

 

[adi2d]

I wouldn't call birth a developmental milestone, it's just an event. It just doesn't make sense to me that we would consider a severely premature infant to be a person while it is barely clinging to life, and can't live without extreme intervention, while the average healthy 8 or 9 month old fetus which would have little, if any, health problems isn't considered a person, and the only thing that decides this is basically their present location. What's the difference between a 27 week fetus and a preemie delivered at 27 weeks? Why should one just be a bag of meat in a womb while the other is a person in a NICU somewhere?

What is the difference? I think you know one difference

 

[Father Heathen]

I was wondering when you think human life begins. And by human life I mean at what point should an organism be considered a person. And in an attempt to avoid the inevitable derailment of this thread:

NOT ABOUT ABORTION OR WOMEN'S RIGHT'S

So let's leave the debate about women's right's and abortion out of the discussion. I don't want to discuss whether or not abortion is right or wrong or whether it should be left up to the woman to decide, I just don't care. There are plenty of threads about that already. Let's just talk about when you would define the beginning of human life, when an organism becomes a person and should be treated as such. Is it conception, viability, birth, before conception, after birth, somewhere in between? And why?

Life as an individual organism begins as a zygote, but personhood begins with consciousness, sentience, and sapience.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What's the difference between a 27 week fetus and a preemie delivered at 27 weeks?

Sentience.

 

[Kalidas]

Sentience.

As mentioned already fetuses ARE sentient(at a certain point). Just because you do not see ti does not mean it is not happening. I can not see you typing away at your computer or phone. But I am fairly certain someone is there. Thinking,living,breathing, and all that other stuff that comes with being alive and typing.

 

[freethinker44]

What is the difference? I think you know one difference

Right, I've named the only difference I see. Location. Is there another?

 

[Kalidas]

Right, I've named the only difference I see. Location. Is there another?

WELL a 27 month old still in the womb is GREATLY effected by the mother and what she does to her body. Other than that there slight subtle differences. Such as they have a hard time hearing outside (they STILL hear though) and yada yada yada. But HONESTLY there is not a large amount of differences. nothing ground shattering.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As mentioned already fetuses ARE sentient(at a certain point). Just because you do not see ti does not mean it is not happening.

The reason we know it's not happening is through scientific studies of fetal pain and awareness. Fetuses are physiologically incapable of pain until late in pregnancy, and even then, they're in a state akin to sedation until birth.

I can not see you typing away at your computer or phone. But I am fairly certain someone is there. Thinking,living,breathing, and all that other stuff that comes with being alive and typing.

You also can't see things that don't exist. Do you have any evidence for your position besides your gut feeling?

 

[adi2d]

One has received the breath of life to become a living person the other hasn't

 

[Kalidas]

The reason we know it's not happening is through scientific studies of fetal pain and awareness. Fetuses are physiologically incapable of pain until late in pregnancy, and even then, they're in a state akin to sedation until birth.

oh really? I guess all my child development professors must be wrong.

If this is the case explain stress and how it does have real life effects on fetuses and how it is known that it has a massive effect on the person once they the womb? Or that fetuses when subjected to alcohol or drugs have shown defensive mechanisms such as trying to move "away" from the source or developing a sense of hyper vigilance.

And ******** fetuses are not aware. They hear, they feel, and have basic rudimentary senses.

Because i want to humor you what are these scientific studies you speak of? I must have missed them while I was doing my course work on this very subject for the past 5 years.

 

[freethinker44]

they're in a state akin to sedation until birth.

Should someone who is heavily sedated be considered a person? If so, why not consider a fetus that is just "in a state akin to sedation" to be a person? Why is a sedated born human a person and a sedated unborn human not a person?

 

[Kalidas]

I guess I should take this time to mention that these levels of "awareness" develops SLOWLY. It isn't like all of a sudden an infant is totally aware EXACTLY at 28 weeks or 27 or 26 etc etc etc. Also "feeling pain" is not a good indicator of "awareness" there are fully developed humans being who feel NO pain, are they not aware? either?

 

[freethinker44]

One has received the breath of life to become a living soul the other hasn't

Well, I guess it would have to become a religious discussion in another thread then, because I don't believe souls exist. I believe it's all biological. So we'll just have to agree to disagree then because I'm not trying to talk about religion here.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

oh really? I guess all my child development professors must be wrong.

If this is the case explain stress and how it does have real life effects on fetuses and how it is known that it has a massive effect on the person once they the womb? Or that fetuses when subjected to alcohol or drugs have shown defensive mechanisms such as trying to move "away" from the source or developing a sense of hyper vigilance.

And ******** fetuses are not aware. They hear, they feel, and have basic rudimentary senses.

Because i want to humor you what are these scientific studies you speak of? I must have missed them while I was doing my course work on this very subject for the past 5 years.

Apparently you have: The importance of 'awareness' for un... [Brain Res Brain Res Rev. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

Since you say you're studying child development, I'm sure that you'll be able to get past the paywall to access the paper if you access it on campus. For the rest of us, here's an excerpt from an article that quotes the lead researcher discussing the study:

“Have you ever wondered,” one visiting professor asked, “why a colt doesn’t get up and gallop around inside the mare?” After all, a horse only minutes old is already able to hobble around the barnyard. The answer, as Mellor reported in an influential review published in 2005, is that biochemicals produced by the placenta and fetus have a sedating and even an anesthetizing effect on the fetus (both equine and human). This fetal cocktail includes adenosine, which suppresses brain activity; pregnanolone, which relieves pain; and prostaglandin D2, which induces sleep — “pretty potent stuff,” he says.

Combined with the warmth and buoyancy of the womb, this brew lulls the fetus into a near-continuous slumber, rendering it effectively unconscious no matter what the state of its anatomy. Even the starts and kicks felt by a pregnant woman, he says, are reflex movements that go on in a fetus’s sleep. While we don’t know if the intense stimulation of surgery would wake it up, Mellor notes that when faced with other potential threats, like an acute shortage of oxygen, the fetus does not rouse itself but rather shuts down more completely in an attempt to conserve energy and promote survival. This is markedly different from the reaction of an infant, who will thrash about in an effort to dislodge whatever is blocking its airway. “A fetus,” Mellor says, “is not a baby who just hasn’t been born yet.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/magazine/10Fetal-t.html?pagewanted=3&_r=2